Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition

[kilo]

Can we have some drawing tools on the tactical map? It would be nice if we could connect points on it to measure distances or connect jump points with a line, allowing us to put a sensor buoy a few million kilometers off of the direct connection. It would help in deploying mines a lot as well.

[Steve Walmsley]

This brings me to a related question.  In the older version of Aurora you could measure distance on the system map by right clicking (I think) on the map and dragging to the target, and Aurora would draw a line and give you a distance.  I can't seem to make this work.  Is there still a way to do this in the game?

It's left-click shift-drag now.

[Kurt]

A quick question.  I can post a pic if necessary, but I think this is a fairly simple problem, I'm just thick sometimes.

I'm terraforming a planet.  The planet's atmo is classified as breathable, and the temp is within tolerances for humans, as is the atmo pressure.  There are no dangerous gasses. 

The planet started with zero water, and I've been adding water vapor to the planet, which seems to be the only way to increase the hydro percentage.  Does the water precipitate out of the atmosphere at some point, increasing the hydro percentage, which seems to be the only thing increasing the colony cost at this point?  If not, I'm never going to be able to reach colony cost zero because I'm getting close to the 4 atmo limit for humans. 

Hmmm...looking at some of my other terraformed planets, it seems like it does precipitate out as I've inundated a couple of colonies. 

[Steve Walmsley]

A quick question.  I can post a pic if necessary, but I think this is a fairly simple problem, I'm just thick sometimes.

I'm terraforming a planet.  The planet's atmo is classified as breathable, and the temp is within tolerances for humans, as is the atmo pressure.  There are no dangerous gasses. 

The planet started with zero water, and I've been adding water vapor to the planet, which seems to be the only way to increase the hydro percentage.  Does the water precipitate out of the atmosphere at some point, increasing the hydro percentage, which seems to be the only thing increasing the colony cost at this point?  If not, I'm never going to be able to reach colony cost zero because I'm getting close to the 4 atmo limit for humans. 

Hmmm...looking at some of my other terraformed planets, it seems like it does precipitate out as I've inundated a couple of colonies.

What's the temperature of the planet?

[Kurt]

A quick question.  I can post a pic if necessary, but I think this is a fairly simple problem, I'm just thick sometimes.

I'm terraforming a planet.  The planet's atmo is classified as breathable, and the temp is within tolerances for humans, as is the atmo pressure.  There are no dangerous gasses. 

The planet started with zero water, and I've been adding water vapor to the planet, which seems to be the only way to increase the hydro percentage.  Does the water precipitate out of the atmosphere at some point, increasing the hydro percentage, which seems to be the only thing increasing the colony cost at this point?  If not, I'm never going to be able to reach colony cost zero because I'm getting close to the 4 atmo limit for humans. 

Hmmm...looking at some of my other terraformed planets, it seems like it does precipitate out as I've inundated a couple of colonies.

What's the temperature of the planet?

Currently 9.8 C, although it has varied a bit as I've fumbled around during my terraforming.  I believe it was a bit hotter to begin with, as I've added some Frigusium to the atmo. 

[Steve Walmsley]

A quick question.  I can post a pic if necessary, but I think this is a fairly simple problem, I'm just thick sometimes.

I'm terraforming a planet.  The planet's atmo is classified as breathable, and the temp is within tolerances for humans, as is the atmo pressure.  There are no dangerous gasses. 

The planet started with zero water, and I've been adding water vapor to the planet, which seems to be the only way to increase the hydro percentage.  Does the water precipitate out of the atmosphere at some point, increasing the hydro percentage, which seems to be the only thing increasing the colony cost at this point?  If not, I'm never going to be able to reach colony cost zero because I'm getting close to the 4 atmo limit for humans. 

Hmmm...looking at some of my other terraformed planets, it seems like it does precipitate out as I've inundated a couple of colonies.

What's the temperature of the planet?

Currently 9.8 C, although it has varied a bit as I've fumbled around during my terraforming.  I believe it was a bit hotter to begin with, as I've added some Frigusium to the atmo.

Water won't condense above about 80C (I think) so 9.8C should be fine. Is it possible the planet has a very eccentric orbit and is hotter for most of its orbit?

[Kurt]

A quick question.  I can post a pic if necessary, but I think this is a fairly simple problem, I'm just thick sometimes.

I'm terraforming a planet.  The planet's atmo is classified as breathable, and the temp is within tolerances for humans, as is the atmo pressure.  There are no dangerous gasses. 

The planet started with zero water, and I've been adding water vapor to the planet, which seems to be the only way to increase the hydro percentage.  Does the water precipitate out of the atmosphere at some point, increasing the hydro percentage, which seems to be the only thing increasing the colony cost at this point?  If not, I'm never going to be able to reach colony cost zero because I'm getting close to the 4 atmo limit for humans. 

Hmmm...looking at some of my other terraformed planets, it seems like it does precipitate out as I've inundated a couple of colonies.

What's the temperature of the planet?

Currently 9.8 C, although it has varied a bit as I've fumbled around during my terraforming.  I believe it was a bit hotter to begin with, as I've added some Frigusium to the atmo.

Water won't condense above about 80C (I think) so 9.8C should be fine. Is it possible the planet has a very eccentric orbit and is hotter for most of its orbit?

It's a moon of a gas giant, so it doesn't have an eccentric orbit.  Sorry, should have mentioned it before.

Does it take time for the water to condense out of the atmosphere?  That's my current theory. 

[nuclearslurpee]

It's a moon of a gas giant, so it doesn't have an eccentric orbit.  Sorry, should have mentioned it before.

Moons will have effects from the eccentricity of their parent body, so if the gas giant has an eccentric orbit then the moon will see similar temperature changes throughout the planet's orbit.

Does it take time for the water to condense out of the atmosphere?  That's my current theory.

This is correct. Per Steve dev post:

7)   Water vapour will condense out of the atmosphere at a rate of 0.1 atm per year and increase the planet's Hydro Extent

8)   Each 1% of Hydro Extent requires 0.025 atm of water vapour. This means that creating 20% Hydro Extent would require 0.5 atm of water vapour (this will be much faster on smaller worlds because the speed at which water vapour atm is added is linked to surface area). With this in mind, existing water becomes an important factor in the speed at which terraforming can be accomplished, especially on larger worlds.

There were some changes in terraforming related to the eccentric orbits in 2.0+ but I don't think the rate of condensation was affected.

[Steve Walmsley]

Does it take time for the water to condense out of the atmosphere?  That's my current theory.

This is correct. Per Steve dev post:

7)   Water vapour will condense out of the atmosphere at a rate of 0.1 atm per year and increase the planet's Hydro Extent

   Each 1% of Hydro Extent requires 0.025 atm of water vapour. This means that creating 20% Hydro Extent would require 0.5 atm of water vapour (this will be much faster on smaller worlds because the speed at which water vapour atm is added is linked to surface area). With this in mind, existing water becomes an important factor in the speed at which terraforming can be accomplished, especially on larger worlds.

There were some changes in terraforming related to the eccentric orbits in 2.0+ but I don't think the rate of condensation was affected.

This post is also relevant from v2.0 changes list:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12523.msg155204;topicseen#msg155204

[Kurt]

Does it take time for the water to condense out of the atmosphere?  That's my current theory.

This is correct. Per Steve dev post:

7)   Water vapour will condense out of the atmosphere at a rate of 0.1 atm per year and increase the planet's Hydro Extent

   Each 1% of Hydro Extent requires 0.025 atm of water vapour. This means that creating 20% Hydro Extent would require 0.5 atm of water vapour (this will be much faster on smaller worlds because the speed at which water vapour atm is added is linked to surface area). With this in mind, existing water becomes an important factor in the speed at which terraforming can be accomplished, especially on larger worlds.

There were some changes in terraforming related to the eccentric orbits in 2.0+ but I don't think the rate of condensation was affected.

This post is also relevant from v2.0 changes list:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12523.msg155204;topicseen#msg155204

Thank you to both of you!  This explains why one of my colonies now has a hydrographic percentage of 102.6%.  I just pumped water vapor in till I got to the zero-colony-cost level, not realizing that it would precipitate out and over-fill the planet.  Oops. 

There is certainly lots to learn in Aurora for me!  It is exciting, though!  I'm determined to get the nuances of the ground combat system worked out, but it is slow going.  I'm having fun working it out, though.

[Garfunkel]

You recreated Waterworld. Now you just need mutant Kevin Costner there!

[Kurt]

I may be rehashing an old issue, and if so, sorry about that.  Having said that, you can have negative water vapor levels during terraforming?

Please note - I am not complaining below.  I'm going through my understanding of how terraforming works.  It only sounds like complaining 

I have discovered that terraforming is much more complex than it used to be.  Just taking into account orbital eccentricity is vital, and something I completely discounted when I started this campaign.  In addition to eccentricity, water percentage and water vapor issues are probably the biggest noticeable change.  Needing to pump water vapor into the atmosphere, then have it precipitate out to create a hydrographic percentage, makes the entire process more complicated and time consuming, as the precipitation takes time, and the water vapor alters the atmosphere's greenhouse effect, if I'm getting this right.  That means that you can't finalize the planet's temp while there is water vapor in the atmosphere, because the precipitation will alter the atmosphere's greenhouse effects, altering the temp. 

I noticed the negative atmospheric water vapor percentage recently while trying to remove the last bit of water vapor from an atmosphere where I didn't need it any more because the hydro percentage had been raised to the zero cost level.  I forgot, as usual, and let it go a bit too long before I realized I hadn't gotten a warning in the event log noting that all of the atmosphere component had been removed, as I would have if I was removing something like chlorine or fluorine.  When I checked, I had -.0156 atmospheres of water vapor.  I guess that means I can reduce a planet's hydro percentage by inducing negative levels of atmospheric water vapor?

Something else I have noticed is that the precipitation process seems to cause massive temperature swings.  I haven't documented this, but I will next time I encounter this.  In this case I was terraforming a planet that originally had temps in the 280 degree range.  I first pumped a bunch of Frigusium to reduce the temp, then some water vapor to get the precipitation process going, then some oxygen.  I got the temp down under a 100 before putting the water vapor in.  Over time, as the water vapor precipitated out, I noticed radical temperature swings, sometimes back up to over 200 degrees.  Very strange.  I had other things going on that I was paying attention to, so as I said, I didn't document this.  I'm sure its all down to the interaction of the numerous variables Steve has set up for atmospheric effects. 

Kurt
 

[Neophyte]

iirc, water vapor is a greenhouse gas so that might be modelled in the terraforming calculations

[Kurt]

iirc, water vapor is a greenhouse gas so that might be modelled in the terraforming calculations

That's what I figured, but the temp swings seemed extreme. 

[Steve Walmsley]

I may be rehashing an old issue, and if so, sorry about that.  Having said that, you can have negative water vapor levels during terraforming?

Please note - I am not complaining below.  I'm going through my understanding of how terraforming works.  It only sounds like complaining 

I have discovered that terraforming is much more complex than it used to be.  Just taking into account orbital eccentricity is vital, and something I completely discounted when I started this campaign.  In addition to eccentricity, water percentage and water vapor issues are probably the biggest noticeable change.  Needing to pump water vapor into the atmosphere, then have it precipitate out to create a hydrographic percentage, makes the entire process more complicated and time consuming, as the precipitation takes time, and the water vapor alters the atmosphere's greenhouse effect, if I'm getting this right.  That means that you can't finalize the planet's temp while there is water vapor in the atmosphere, because the precipitation will alter the atmosphere's greenhouse effects, altering the temp. 

I noticed the negative atmospheric water vapor percentage recently while trying to remove the last bit of water vapor from an atmosphere where I didn't need it any more because the hydro percentage had been raised to the zero cost level.  I forgot, as usual, and let it go a bit too long before I realized I hadn't gotten a warning in the event log noting that all of the atmosphere component had been removed, as I would have if I was removing something like chlorine or fluorine.  When I checked, I had -.0156 atmospheres of water vapor.  I guess that means I can reduce a planet's hydro percentage by inducing negative levels of atmospheric water vapor?

Something else I have noticed is that the precipitation process seems to cause massive temperature swings.  I haven't documented this, but I will next time I encounter this.  In this case I was terraforming a planet that originally had temps in the 280 degree range.  I first pumped a bunch of Frigusium to reduce the temp, then some water vapor to get the precipitation process going, then some oxygen.  I got the temp down under a 100 before putting the water vapor in.  Over time, as the water vapor precipitated out, I noticed radical temperature swings, sometimes back up to over 200 degrees.  Very strange.  I had other things going on that I was paying attention to, so as I said, I didn't document this.  I'm sure its all down to the interaction of the numerous variables Steve has set up for atmospheric effects. 

Kurt

Negative water vapour is a bug, so I will take a look at that.

Water vapour is a normal gas (in Aurora), rather than a greenhouse gas so it won't have a dramatic effect on the temperature. The only greenhouse gases are Aestusium, CO2, Methane, Sulphur Dioxide and Nitrogen Dioxide.

Albedo changes could also be affecting the temp if the water is freezing at some point in the orbit. Eccentricity can have a massive effect.

EDIT: Found the bug. It was a side effect of the change I made to avoid switching off removal of water vapour when it was reduced to zero, but there was still water on the planet