Author Topic: Pirates  (Read 9570 times)

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Offline Bremen

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2021, 11:50:14 AM »
The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.

Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.

Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.

So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"



I wouldn't limit it to 'only' since that removes the whole point of pirates requiring you to defend your 'internal' areas. But I think that each unexplored jump point, discovered or not, should act like a multiplier on the frequency or strength of attacks. Then you have one system, which is logical, which serves both purposes.

I'm not sure about the latter idea since it would have the opposite effect - every jump point you explore is going to, on average, reveal more than one unexplored jump point (at least absent exploring nearly the entire map), and therefor if more unexplored jump points = more pirates, you'd be motivated to explore as few jump points as possible. Also Aurora endgame already tends to bog down enough and I worry this change would mean late game empires with hundreds of explored systems would mean a pirate spawn every week or something.

I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2021, 12:26:11 PM »
The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

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I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.

As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.

However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.
 

Offline Malorn

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2021, 12:41:30 PM »
The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

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I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.

As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.

However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.

Well, I agree it shouldn't be tied to JPs automatically, but larger raids through unknown jump points would also solve another problem, using the same basic system. So you'd have larger raids moving in across conventional routes of invasion through jump points, and then you'd have constant smaller raids that can come from the edge of the system to pressure the internal areas.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 09:32:11 AM by Malorn »
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2021, 01:11:05 PM »
The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

snip
snip
snip
I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.

As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.

However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.

This reply chain wasn't based on Steve's response but just my own idea of pirates I'd tossed up in the thread earlier. If it inspires Steve in any way that's great, but mostly I just tossed it out because I liked the idea.

For what it's worth, I saw the goal as the complete opposite of menacing interior colonies - currently pretty much the best strategy, and the one I think most people use, is to consolidate your fleet and either keep it at your homeworld or a few naval bases/borders with hostiles. Having a nebulous threat at the borders would mean you'd be incentivized to use things like patrols and system defense forces for your smaller colonies.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 01:14:14 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline Platys51

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2021, 06:01:28 AM »
Just to toss my image of potential pirates out here:

They would spawn like mining colonies, except with a lower pop limit, meaning they could spawn in any system with your colony above let's say 1m pop.

Only bodies they would spawn at would be moons or asteroids without minerals to lower chance of detection.

Their colony would start with 1kt shipyard and tiny bit of fighter production.

First pirate ships would be fac sized carriers hauling around boarding craft. Pirate boarding party on such vessel would consist of light personal weapons, light armor infantry with tech lvl one below player.

Such ships wouldnt be much of an issue to larger vessels, preying mainly on passenger lines and small ships. They would attempt boarding larger vessels as well. Mainly to made player aware of the threat.

If captured, player would get an option to buy back their ship for funds equal to its build cost. Shipping companies would buy back fixed % of ships.

Profits from this activity would go towards 2 things: more pirate vessels and expansion. Pirates wouldnt build ships, they would spawn them like shipping companies using only funds.

If sufficient wealth is amassed, pirate outpost would build bigger shipyard and one of all shipyards of lower size. 2kt, 4kt, 6kt, 8kt, 12kt.

2kt ships would be bigger versions of carrier fac with large enough boarder group to threaten shipping routes.
4kt would be lightly armed frigate capable of defending itself.
6kt crafts would be mostly in support roles. Sensor vessels, tugs, salvagers.
8kt would be either carriers or light cruiser. Either spelling doom for any lesser vessels unlucky enough to come within range.
12kt capital. If base got to this point, fleet would be needed to deal with pirate threat. Heavy anti ship weapons, heavy armor and absolute disregard for moderation would turn any shipping line it comes upon into wreck field.

Ships would only operate in the system they spawned in. Spawning one ship from each shipyard every 5-10 years.

Also, any ships not bought back would be parked above pirate world. Maintainence clock frozen and they would become available for modifications.

10 years after sitting above pirate world with 12kt shipyard, their cargo hold would be replaced with civilian hangars and maintenance/fuel storage.

After filing itself with ships, these carriers would attempt to blend into civilian traffic and leave the system. Then would operate from there.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2021, 02:00:57 PM »
I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.


With regards the fuel and minerals and such, couldn't the Pirate NPR just cheat by directly converting the wealth it gathers into those things? We can assume the pirates are buying it off the black market and using smugglers the player can't see to supply themselves with the basics.

 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2021, 06:36:41 AM »
The way that Aurora4X is made, I wouldn't consider pirates to be feasible.

Ever tried playing as a pirate empire, with a base on an inhospitable rock?

The very first issue is the resources - they are Limited. They don't regenerate over time, or new resources spawn with asteroids and comets arriving and leaving, or gravitational force attracting new trans-newtonian elements. This has to be solved first.

Second issue - ground forces and construction - in the game we have huge amounts of different ground-based facilities that are crucial for your empire to exist. We have 4 different types of ground construction facilities (ordnance, construction, fighter and ground force construction). This has to be simplified, for pirates to economically exist. That is, we need a factory that can do all 4. Please don't add a special structure that only pirates can use.

The third, somewhat limited, issue - the way that military/commercial ships/stations are classified. This also has to be changed in order for pirates to be a worthy and somewhat effective. Either, we need to remove this commercial/military designation, or create yet another designation (which would be special for pirates and which I personally CURSE - why normal empires can't use underhanded tactics!?)

If these issues are solved, I can see pirates to be a possibility and even an interesting empire to play as.
Seriously, I hate that there are special rules for special entities. I want to make sure that all of them use the same rules and actually play the same game...
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2021, 01:18:23 PM »
The way that Aurora4X is made, I wouldn't consider pirates to be feasible.

Ever tried playing as a pirate empire, with a base on an inhospitable rock?

The very first issue is the resources - they are Limited. They don't regenerate over time, or new resources spawn with asteroids and comets arriving and leaving, or gravitational force attracting new trans-newtonian elements. This has to be solved first.

Second issue - ground forces and construction - in the game we have huge amounts of different ground-based facilities that are crucial for your empire to exist. We have 4 different types of ground construction facilities (ordnance, construction, fighter and ground force construction). This has to be simplified, for pirates to economically exist. That is, we need a factory that can do all 4. Please don't add a special structure that only pirates can use.

I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.

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The third, somewhat limited, issue - the way that military/commercial ships/stations are classified. This also has to be changed in order for pirates to be a worthy and somewhat effective. Either, we need to remove this commercial/military designation, or create yet another designation (which would be special for pirates and which I personally CURSE - why normal empires can't use underhanded tactics!?)

It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.

If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2021, 03:02:01 PM »
I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.
Then my interest in pirates is murdered - I have very little interest to entities that you can't play as...
If we can't create an entity using normal rules, it's not worth the effort.
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It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.

If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
Interesting... That is a good suggestion.

Still... about normal or not rules - I did decide to play with spoilers Precursors, Invaders and Rakhas, for the latest play-through, but overall I prefer to play with  You know the rules, and so do I! mentality - both play the same game. Considering that most spoilers are essentially a challenge, basically a default NPR with increased technological standing, whose level you can reach and surpass given sufficient time and effort, they aren't exactly rule breaking...
One major issue is related to resources - they are limited. And if any NPR can bypass this limitation (and the player cannot), this makes a very unfair and unbalanced game...
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2021, 07:35:15 PM »
I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.
Then my interest in pirates is murdered - I have very little interest to entities that you can't play as...
If we can't create an entity using normal rules, it's not worth the effort.
Quote
It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.

If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
Interesting... That is a good suggestion.

Still... about normal or not rules - I did decide to play with spoilers Precursors, Invaders and Rakhas, for the latest play-through, but overall I prefer to play with  You know the rules, and so do I! mentality - both play the same game. Considering that most spoilers are essentially a challenge, basically a default NPR with increased technological standing, whose level you can reach and surpass given sufficient time and effort, they aren't exactly rule breaking...
One major issue is related to resources - they are limited. And if any NPR can bypass this limitation (and the player cannot), this makes a very unfair and unbalanced game...

Aurora is not about playing a balanced game to begin with so that probably is a not a very good argument for anything for this game. It is not suppose to be fair or balanced in any specific way.

Pirates or a version of it will be added to 1.14 which give reasons to protect your logistical and commercial supply lines as well as colonies. The game will drain your resources allot more than it used to do.

As Aurora is first and foremost a story (role-playing) simulation game about limitation and restrictions where you build your own story and rule set you can liberally add or remove any spoilers you find fun to play with, be that all of them or none.

But if you play Aurora as a traditional game in order to "win" it is terribly badly balanced in favour of the human player, to the point of it being nearly broken.

Pirates add an interesting logistical hurdle to deal with and provides a fun story arc for people that like role-play. Steve now added a "pirate" faction to the game in the next version which give us the challenge which pirates could add to the game. If you don't like them you are perfectly fine with turning them off. Personally I find the addition of "pirates" as interesting for several different reasons.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 04:04:40 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2021, 06:18:12 AM »

Aurora is not about playing a balanced game to begin with so that probably is a not a very good argument for anything for this game. It is not suppose to be fair or balanced in any specific way.

Pirates or a version of it will be added to 1.14 which give reasons to protect your logistical and commercial supply lines as well as colonies. The game will drain your resources allot more than it used to do.

As Aurora is first and foremost a story (role-playing) simulation game about limitation and restrictions where you build your own story and rule set you can liberally add or remove any spoilers you find fun to play with, be that all of them or none.

But if you play Aurora as a traditional game in order to "win" it is terribly badly balanced in favour of the human player, to the point of it being nearly broken.

Pirates add an interesting logistical hurdle to deal with and provides a fun story arc for people that like role-play. Steve now added a "pirate" faction to the game in the next version which give us the challenge which pirates could add to the game. If you don't like them you are perfectly fine with turning them off. Personally I find the addition of "pirates" as interesting for several different reasons.
Well... I suppose that many games are unbalanced, with the idea to give player a challenge to overcome...

It would be kind of annoying to see the rule of limited resources violated - making a non-playable entity cheat by spawning new units for free, or straight up creating resources from thin air... But, this in a way can be overcome by salvaging their wrecks.

And yes, I've noticed that pirates are coming.


But, hang on - if this is a story simulation, why can't I play a story from a spoiler point of view be it precursors, invaders, swarm or pirates?
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2021, 11:39:17 AM »
Well... I suppose that many games are unbalanced, with the idea to give player a challenge to overcome...

It would be kind of annoying to see the rule of limited resources violated - making a non-playable entity cheat by spawning new units for free, or straight up creating resources from thin air... But, this in a way can be overcome by salvaging their wrecks.

And yes, I've noticed that pirates are coming.


But, hang on - if this is a story simulation, why can't I play a story from a spoiler point of view be it precursors, invaders, swarm or pirates?

It all comes down to the time of one person, Steve. Everything you said is part of an ideal that I don't think anyone can fundamentally disagree with. Yes it would be cool if NPRs and spoilers followed the same rules, yes it would be cool to play as spoilers especially pirates (like in distant worlds) but at the end of the day it's just Steve and the source code with a finite amount of time. So if Steve doesn't at some point go "it would be cool to play as pirates", it's probably not going to get added in.

Finally I'd like to say that I'm saying this as someone who doesn't usually like it when people say "this is too complex to implement" in the context of suggestions.
 
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Offline Agraelgrimm

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Re: Pirates
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2021, 05:16:28 PM »
I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

So, i was thinking about this. The thing about piracy is that the pirate organization doesnt function like a goverment, but they function more like a business. So their economics are things that have clarity of intent. Meaning that most pirates are smugglers, and those smugglers are then aided by police officers, goverment officials and polititians. This have been the norm since the dawn of time and for as long as we have organized crime.

To have pirates in the game, they would have to be able to hijack part of the civillian production. So, if a colony produces infraestructure, then depending on corruption lv, part of that would be diverted to pirate activity. And some of the civillian trading ships are actually smugglers. The way to deal with that would be trough reducing corruption, however, that would explain how the pirates would be able to sustain an economy strong enough to make small outposts. Now, its one thing to have a small outpost, another is to spawn attack fleets.
In that sense, they would then have to spawn fake civillian ships, and then switch them to pirates in the last minute or so. Better sensors would stop raids and etc, however then we have active means to solve that. That would be intercept them during a raid. After they go dark, they go dark. And depending on the results of the raids, have a bigger economy or what not.

With that, it would mean ships with actual military troops and etc, so if the player fails to deal with piracy, he will have an epidemic. Make them board ships will make their fleets rather easy to deal with in early stages and a nightmare on later ones, since they would be able to hijack ships and etc.
I belive thats the best way to approach pirate economy. Now, if thats viable to put into the game mechanics, i dont know, but it would be interesting to make the players pay attention in the civilian production and etc. Like, a colony with recreational drugs would be great for pirate activity in form of smugglers and a good place to be raided.

That would make it players to actually have garrisons, patrol ships, etc. If we have a decent patrol button, or a way to program patrol routes and etc, that would increase the imersion of pirate activity. Give control to the players of how nightmarish they would want pirates to be would be nice too.

Now i understand that i may appear more complex than it really is, so some points into that:
The pirates would not as much syphon the player's resources, as it would just convert all the production into wealth, and then use this wealth to produce the infraestructure it needs to spawn outposts, bases and eventually ships. And that would work in a percentage because if we look into it, a pirate haven with 2 million population is huge. As far as colonies goes, thats nothing. So EM and Heat emissions would be really low, keeping a low profile and being able to spawn bases even into comets or asteroids. Plus, the wealth needed to provide some operations is actually low. It would have to be higher to spawn ships, fleets and troops later on, but that can be achieved by raiding, looting, and smuggling.

The wealth convertion can be as simple as a variation of wealth, corruption percentage, time and overall system or empire development. The amount of infraestructure needed to make 2-3 million pirates alive is low enough that it is doable by smuggling. The pirates could also be able to capture and rearm player's ships, wich in this case it would just copy the blueprint with the ammo, parasites and etc copied and replenished as needed. The amount of missile stocks and etc would be equivalent of a certain amount of percentage of wealth, and the same goes for shipyards, wich would be slower and smaller than player's shipyards, so pirates ships would be smaller as long as it doesnt capture enough of player's ships, wich in this case could even be commercial too. That would just add to the parts they could put together to make bigger ships.

Now, most of that are just a couple of codes running in the background. The end result would be pirates appearing and disappearing and the player needing to find the bases, outposts and etc. The majority of those calculations are to specify how pirate economy's work and to prevent it to go rampart of unbalanced. While i dont know if it will be needed a big overhaul in the game codes, i belive it should be doable, the question is if its worth doing it because of the amount of work necessary and Steve being just one guy working on the game.

But anyway, i tought i should leave my toughts on the matter and i tried to make this as short as possible.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 05:49:27 PM by Agraelgrimm »
 
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