Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: Borealis4x on December 28, 2020, 08:46:49 PM
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I'm trying to make a good fleet bomber for my carriers, but can't decide whether to go with the Big Bomber design or Small Bomber design.
Both I think are pretty solid designs, being fast for their tech with decent range and the ability to launch a good-sized missile from outside of PD range. Only thing I'm concerned about is the lack of maintenance, but they spend most of their time in a hangar anyways.
At the end of the day the question is whether I want to deliver a bigger payload or carry more bombers with me.
Small Bomber
Small Bomber class Bomber (P) 125 tons 2 Crew 28.4 BP TCS 2 TH 31 EM 0
12560 km/s Armour 1-2 Shields 0-0 HTK 1 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 0.9
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 24% IFR 0.3% 1YR 1 5YR 16 Max Repair 15.625 MSP
Magazine 6
Lieutenant Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months Morale Check Required
Mitsubishi-Sugo F.31.25/50 'Raijin' Ion Drive (1) Power 31.2 Fuel Use 1250.0% Signature 31.25 Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres Range 1.16 billion km (25 hours at full power)
Size 6.00 Box Launcher (1) Missile Size: 6.00 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Missile Fire Control FC5-R1 (30%) (1) Range 5.4m km Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (30%) (1) GPS 3 Range 2.7m km MCR 244k km Resolution 1
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
Big Bomber
Big Bomber class Bomber (P) 200 tons 4 Crew 47 BP TCS 4 TH 63 EM 0
15693 km/s Armour 1-3 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 1.2
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 39% IFR 0.6% 1YR 2 5YR 35 Max Repair 15.625 MSP
Magazine 8
Lieutenant Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months Morale Check Required
Mitsubishi-Sugo F.31.25/50 'Raijin' Ion Drive (2) Power 62.5 Fuel Use 1250.0% Signature 31.25 Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 15,000 Litres Range 1.08 billion km (19 hours at full power)
Size 8.00 Box Launcher (1) Missile Size: 8.00 Hangar Reload 141 minutes MF Reload 23 hours
Missile Fire Control FC5-R1 (30%) (1) Range 5.4m km Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (30%) (1) GPS 3 Range 2.7m km MCR 244k km Resolution 1
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
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Maintenance will probably not be an issue since failures roll on production increments.
If you're on 1 day production increments only the small bomber might have to worry.
They are out of PD range but im not sure AMM range.
With bombers this size you are probably ok with single missiles. Especially since the missiles in question are quite large for fighter size bombers (I usually opt for 5 max and 3-4 usually).
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I fee like bomber isnt an appropriate term to apply to things that effectively fire guided missiles instead of dumb munitions (IE: Bombs.) but i guess the definition of what is and isnt a bomb has changed a lot.
I think the designs look good. I would go with the big bomber personally since i dont normally like doing fighter and carrier doctrines. I rely on the "Accuracy by volume of fire" doctrine. Massed, hard hitting, and not very accurate fire.
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In theory I think the smaller bomber is better. The major reason is that carrying a size-6 missile on a 125-ton craft means you carry 1 MSP per 20.8 tons, whereas the big bomber only carries 1 MSP per 25 tons. In practice of course it depends on the missile designs which depend tightly on your techs, as a size-8 missile may be able to effectively deliver a 16-damage warhead while the size-6 can only deliver 9-damage effectively (or proportionally 12 damage, but you usually want to hit the square breakpoints with missile damage).
Both have a rather short MFC range (I'd feel safer with 10+ m km) but at ion tech I don't think AMMs will typically reach 5m km so it should be okay.
The 125-ton bomber also has an advantage logistically as it can neatly fill either size of boat bay, although this is supposed to change in v1.13 so it will not matter. This would mean for instance that a light carrier could carry 12 bombers in a 1,500-ton hangar space (hangar + 2x Boat Bay) while the small bomber would only fit 7x and waste 100 t of space in that configuration. A minor consideration but worth considering for the possibility of a situation where you need to squeeze the most out of an extra few tons in a design.
In the event that you do get shot at, more smaller bombers offer a naval version of the "meatshield effect" in that it will take more shots to wipe out a bomber fleet of more, smaller bombers if the damage of each shot (laser blast, ASM warhead, etc.) would OHKO bombers of either size - which is often the case since fighters/bombers usually only have 1 layer of armor. Against an enemy using e.g. Gauss or railguns though it usually doesn't matter much due to the lower damage per shot of such weapons.
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I find them pricey for the payload they deliver. I prefer to cram as much launcher as possible in a bomber, that will not be very fast but will fire from afar then get the hell out of dodge...
Here is mine, I'm only at Improved Nuclear Thermal, so it is slow, but that's ok I believe given the missile range. For 50 BP, they can send 6 size-6 missiles.
Lancaster III class Fighter-bomber 500 tons 5 Crew 49.8 BP TCS 10 TH 16 EM 0
1600 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 5.4
Maint Life 8.16 Years MSP 26 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 1 5YR 10 Max Repair 10 MSP
Magazine 36
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months Morale Check Required
Eurojet Thrust Engine Mk3 INTE 2-16 (1) Power 16 Fuel Use 351.56% Signature 16 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres Range 1.5 billion km (11 days at full power)
Distress Beacon (1) Total Power Output 0 Exp 5%
Leonardo Systems Box Launcher Rack 6 (6) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Tepellamann Industries Missile Fire Control FC29-R50 (1) Range 29.4m km Resolution 50
Haynes Falchion ASM-6/41 (6) Speed: 9 600 km/s End: 71.6m Range: 41.2m km WH: 6 Size: 6 TH: 35/21/10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
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Allow me to add another log to the bomber pile:
SB-4 class Strike Bomber 100 tons 1 Crew 21.1 BP TCS 2 TH 20 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 1-1 Shields 0-0 HTK 1 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 0.75
Maint Life 8.64 Years MSP 20 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 0 5YR 7 Max Repair 12 MSP
Magazine 5
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days Morale Check Required
UNRC Magneto-plasma Drive EP20.00 (1) Power 20 Fuel Use 2651.65% Signature 20 Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 15,000 Litres Range 1.02 billion km (28 hours at full power)
UNRC S5 External Ordnance Rack (1) Missile Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
UNRC M2 Strike Bomber Targeting Computer (1) Range 8.6m km Resolution 4
S5M4 Guided Missile (1) Speed: 40,000 km/s End: 3.4m Range: 8.2m km WH: 16 Size: 5 TH: 173/104/52
UNRC M2XS Ship Detection Gravimeter (1) GPS 210 Range 12.6m km Resolution 100
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
I've been using these for a while (since the NPE tech era) with basically the same design, just upgrading sensors and engines as new tech becomes available. 10k km/s speed and 1b km range has been completely adequate against the NPRs I have been fighting. A standard strike group consists of 10x bombers and 2x fast scouts which are similarly sized but have better sensors.
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If you set the intended deployment time to 0.1, you might be able to save some weight.
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I find them pricey for the payload they deliver. I prefer to cram as much launcher as possible in a bomber, that will not be very fast but will fire from afar then get the hell out of dodge...
Here is mine, I'm only at Improved Nuclear Thermal, so it is slow, but that's ok I believe given the missile range. For 50 BP, they can send 6 size-6 missiles.
Lancaster III class Fighter-bomber 500 tons 5 Crew 49.8 BP TCS 10 TH 16 EM 0
1600 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 5.4
Maint Life 8.16 Years MSP 26 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 1 5YR 10 Max Repair 10 MSP
Magazine 36
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months Morale Check Required
Eurojet Thrust Engine Mk3 INTE 2-16 (1) Power 16 Fuel Use 351.56% Signature 16 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres Range 1.5 billion km (11 days at full power)
Distress Beacon (1) Total Power Output 0 Exp 5%
Leonardo Systems Box Launcher Rack 6 (6) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Tepellamann Industries Missile Fire Control FC29-R50 (1) Range 29.4m km Resolution 50
Haynes Falchion ASM-6/41 (6) Speed: 9 600 km/s End: 71.6m Range: 41.2m km WH: 6 Size: 6 TH: 35/21/10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
How is that distress beacon used? Is it a missile?
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I find them pricey for the payload they deliver. I prefer to cram as much launcher as possible in a bomber, that will not be very fast but will fire from afar then get the hell out of dodge...
Here is mine, I'm only at Improved Nuclear Thermal, so it is slow, but that's ok I believe given the missile range. For 50 BP, they can send 6 size-6 missiles.
Lancaster III class Fighter-bomber 500 tons 5 Crew 49.8 BP TCS 10 TH 16 EM 0
1600 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 5.4
Maint Life 8.16 Years MSP 26 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 1 5YR 10 Max Repair 10 MSP
Magazine 36
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months Morale Check Required
Eurojet Thrust Engine Mk3 INTE 2-16 (1) Power 16 Fuel Use 351.56% Signature 16 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres Range 1.5 billion km (11 days at full power)
Distress Beacon (1) Total Power Output 0 Exp 5%
Leonardo Systems Box Launcher Rack 6 (6) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Tepellamann Industries Missile Fire Control FC29-R50 (1) Range 29.4m km Resolution 50
Haynes Falchion ASM-6/41 (6) Speed: 9 600 km/s End: 71.6m Range: 41.2m km WH: 6 Size: 6 TH: 35/21/10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
How is that distress beacon used? Is it a missile?
It has a power and explosion rating - I think its a dummy reactor
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Dummy missile boats sounds like a good idea. Draw enemy fire. If thats possible anyway.
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I find them pricey for the payload they deliver. I prefer to cram as much launcher as possible in a bomber, that will not be very fast but will fire from afar then get the hell out of dodge...
Here is mine, I'm only at Improved Nuclear Thermal, so it is slow, but that's ok I believe given the missile range. For 50 BP, they can send 6 size-6 missiles.
Lancaster III class Fighter-bomber 500 tons 5 Crew 49.8 BP TCS 10 TH 16 EM 0
1600 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 5.4
Maint Life 8.16 Years MSP 26 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 1 5YR 10 Max Repair 10 MSP
Magazine 36
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months Morale Check Required
Eurojet Thrust Engine Mk3 INTE 2-16 (1) Power 16 Fuel Use 351.56% Signature 16 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres Range 1.5 billion km (11 days at full power)
Distress Beacon (1) Total Power Output 0 Exp 5%
Leonardo Systems Box Launcher Rack 6 (6) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Tepellamann Industries Missile Fire Control FC29-R50 (1) Range 29.4m km Resolution 50
Haynes Falchion ASM-6/41 (6) Speed: 9 600 km/s End: 71.6m Range: 41.2m km WH: 6 Size: 6 TH: 35/21/10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
How is that distress beacon used? Is it a missile?
It has a power and explosion rating - I think its a dummy reactor
That's what I was thinking but I'm unsure what use such a reactor would provide. Aside from exploding when shot at.
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It has a power and explosion rating - I think its a dummy reactor
That's what I was thinking but I'm unsure what use such a reactor would provide. Aside from exploding when shot at.
- I think it is being used to get round tonnage w/o decimal left over.
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Crusader class Fighter-bomber 500 tons 10 Crew 87.6 BP TCS 10 TH 108 EM 0
10821 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0 PPV 1.8
Maint Life 9.18 Years MSP 101 AFR 10% IFR 0.1% 1YR 2 5YR 32 Max Repair 54 MSP
Magazine 12
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 18 days Morale Check Required
Laske-Zingarelli T270-100T Magneto-plasma Drive, Class 108/125M (1) Power 108 Fuel Use 118.86% Signature 108 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 56,000 Litres Range 17 billion km (18 days at full power)
Zingarelli Naval Missile Cell, Class 3 (4) Missile Size: 3 Hangar Reload 86 minutes MF Reload 14 hours
Zingarelli Naval T5/21-11R1 Missile FCS, Standard Grade (1) Range 5.4m km Resolution 1
Laske-Zingarelli GP-SLASM, Class 3 (4) Speed: 40,000 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 5.4m km WH: 6 Size: 3 TH: 266/160/80
T20/21-11R1 Active Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1) GPS 9 Range 5.4m km MCR 488.1k km Resolution 1
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
- I figured I'd weigh in since I'm online anyways. :) I agree with vorpal +5 on the matter of missile launchers per ton, but that said your bombers are fast, like Sonic the Hedgehog on Crack levels of fast. Reduce your deployment times though, 1 month for 19~25 hours of fuel? Way too much, 0.1 AKA 3 days is plenty for these. That all said, this is my take on a Bomber, or more to the point a Fighter-Bomber, since the Size-3 it mounts is plenty serviceable in the Anti-Fighter role. The Crusader is meant to strike a balance between speed, range and firepower.
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i like the small ones better as-is. feel that you're going to build 125 tons, you can significantly reduce the speed, since your major survival trait is your sensor footprint.
if you're not going for invisibility, keep the speed (or anyway most of it, holy cow those are fast), but go all the way up to 500 tons. better firepower, better range, and more use out of your best pilots.
increasing operating- and engagement range makes for a lot more user-friendliness. i am a lazy bastard and prioritize those pretty heavily.
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A lot depends on what kind of anti-fighter fire controls the enemy is likely to have. If all their missile fire controls/sensors are res 1 and res 100, then missile LACs, 800-1000 tons, can afford the space for a much larger fire control, and will be able to use longer ranged stand off missiles.
Range is a much bigger concern in C# than in VB6, because it isn't practical to have fighter tankers refueling your strike force in flight. And you could refit an 800 ton LAC into an 850 ton LAC with an extra fuel tank, but there is nothing you could do to boost the range of already built fighters.
In VB6, I had 1000 ton missile boats escorted by 500 ton railgun fighters. Theory was that if the enemy only had limited anti-fighter capability, the fighters would be sufficient to thin the volleys enough to reduce casualties. If they fired anti-ship missiles at the missile boats, they would likely do so at a range beyond that which the anti-ship missiles could engage the railgun fighters. So I could probe with railgun fighters and a small number of missile boats, and either make them waste missiles or, worst case, waste a lot of missiles overkilling the small number of missile boats.
Point defense fighters aren't quite as good in C#, but while you have the option of escorting the bombers if the bombers are >450 tons or so, you really can't build a PD escort to go with 200 ton bombers.
The problem I have with small bombers is how all or nothing they are. If you guess wrong on the range of the enemy sensors/firecontrols, you lose all of them before they get in firing range. A strike force built around 500 ton fighters could have scouts with 200 ton res 1 sensors to let you figure out the range the enemy must have fired on your strike force.
Also, small bombers are attrition units, which means you have to commit a LOT of them to get a good exchange. Unless you have good intelligence on the enemy sensor/fire control tech and know you have a window of effectiveness for 125 ton, 150 ton or whatever fighters.
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Personally I would go with the big bomber design you have, with an alteration. Swap out the size 8 box launcher for 2 size 4 launchers. Unless your missile design is astounding then it is going to suffer attrition from PD. Better to get lots of small hits through the net than hope for a few big hits.
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Personally I would go with the big bomber design you have, with an alteration. Swap out the size 8 box launcher for 2 size 4 launchers. Unless your missile design is astounding then it is going to suffer attrition from PD. Better to get lots of small hits through the net than hope for a few big hits.
That is not necessarily true... if you use ECM on the missiles that can sometimes make them equally hard if not harder to shoot down. A bigger warhead can also mean allot when you actually get through the enemy point defences. Even if smaller missiles generally get through more often does not always translate in needing less resources to beat the enemy.
Bigger missile also means better range generally which also can be quite important, shock damage is another important way to cause internal damage. At higher tech levels you also need ECCM or you are not hitting much with standard ASM missiles.
A smaller missile will leave your fighter more vulnerable to anti-fighter countermeasures... perhaps not against the AI as much but in multi-faction campaigns certainly an issue to contend with.