Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Suggestions => Topic started by: Borealis4x on January 19, 2021, 04:32:34 PM
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This has probably been suggested over and over again, but I'd like to see pirates added to the game. It'd be a good way to encourage players to invest in their military early on before they've actually encountered any NPRs and act as a 'tutorial' of sorts for combat before players go on to have proper battles.
Pirates should be weak, but annoying if not proactively dealt with. Early on you should be able to defeat them even with PD weapons as their first crafts will be barely large enough to mount a small boarding bay and an engine.
By acting as a low-risk enemy, it will get the player thinking about tactics and strategy in Aurora a lot earlier, which is good because a lot of people I know (including me) can count the amount of times we've been in combat on one hand since we always restart before getting that far.
Their designs for each component should always be at least 3 tech levels below anything you have researched AND DEVELOPED (pirates won't do their own R&D) UNLESS they mange to board and capture one of your ships. Then they have access to the technology present in that ship's components. So keep your big ships safe!
The pirate AI should obviously focus on boarding and capturing ships above all. This is vital for them, as pirates start out only being able to build 1000-ton ships from scratch. However, they can convert captured civilian ships of any size into military ships by overclocking the civilian engines and strapping on some guns back at their base (more on this later). This means a pirate that captures a 50,000 ton civilian cargo ship (a staple of my games) now has 50,000 tons of space to convert into a warship. Scary!
However, there are obvious drawbacks to converting a freighter to a battleship. One is that every component has increased maintenance requirements. Another is that engines and armor can only be boosted by so much. A fledgling Pirate Hideout on a rock somewhere won't be able to slap on more than 1 layer of improvised armor or boost civilian engines past 75%. A Pirate Haven however...
This brings me to the next important thing you have to know about pirates; their outposts. Once civilians have spawned, pirates will also start to spawn to raid them from their bases. The bases will never spawn on planets, as those are too conspicuous and interesting for the authorities, but rather on asteroids and small moons that would generally be undesirable for colonization and well away from other populations. Pirate Bases start with a Deep Space Tracking station (3 techs below yours), a military shipyard locked at 1,000 tons, an ordinance and fighter factory, and some maintenance facilities.
Every prize it takes is taken back to the base, where its cargo is converted into wealth (divided by 3) and is either itself sold for its wealth value (again divided by 3) or converted into a pirate vessel. As a Pirate Base gains more and more wealth, it will expand its fleet and increase the capacity of its military shipyard. It can also add more layers of armor to salvaged commercial ships, boost commercial engines higher, and lessens the maintenance penalty for commercials converted to military. Garrisons and even STO's start to spawn, and larger Pirate Bases can smuggle advanced tech to close the gap between you and them until you are on par with one-another. If you let a base flourish, you could soon encounter a fleet of home-made pirate ships that aren't total pushovers in the face of a proper navy.
Pirates will ideally set up in systems with no populations or naval presence, but a lot of civilian traffic. Having a colony won't deter them however, especially if its a new colony with only a couple million people. Stationing a big enough naval force in the region will suppress pirates from spawning to a large extent, and Pirates won't spawn on bodies where they will be detected by sensors. You can also starve them by keeping them from taking prizes, as they have bills to pay just like everyone else. If they go too far into the red, they disband. Pirates will capture crew and colonists to grow their population, which they put to work in the shipyard, making civilian goods, or mining if minerals are present. A larger portion of the population can go towards these efforts on Pirate bases, but that comes with a larger attrition rate. Unscrupulous civilians will actually turn off their transponder to trade with pirates discreetly, giving Pirates an alternative way to earn income.
A Pirate faction's endgame is to seize a colony close by and declare themselves independent, at which point they become a normal NPR.
More NPC controlled organizations like these will really give your Empire more life as well as a chance to gain experience in a part of the game that many players fail to get to in a lot of playthroughs.
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I occasionally spawn a new player pirate faction to prey upon my gloated civilian shipping lines. Someone elsewhere on this forum suggested that once upon a time and I've enjoyed that methodology. It gives me a reason to develop short range patrol ships.
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In my playthrough with multiple player empires all of the same species, they share tech that's 3 generations (sometimes 4 generations) older with all other empires of the same species. I reckon since the framework is already there, a similar ruleset could be made. But yea, I completely agree and would love to see them as a thing you could turn on/off and act like a nuisance to civilian shipping which will then promote you to actually make trade protectors.
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Second this!
It's really needed, because there is some limit at wich you can play with yourself, SMing small opponents, and this way you just cannot surprise yourself, so it's too boring!
But I think it must be as simple and solid, as it could, so I'd say there must be some general fraction-spawn scheme to make unstable rebel-rogue fractions of any race with, say, decent militancy (or it can be new race stat - smth like loyalty or unanimity, to use with militancy as rebel chance multiplier).
I think they must use the same engine and beam weapon techs as you, because otherwise they'll never get your ships boarded.
So, general scheme can be smth like this:
1. Every construction phase might be a check based at racial rebellion factor (instability*militancy[/unanimity]), resulting mutiny events on any player-controlled race.
2. Every mutiny must eat some racial wealth and raise some infantry GF.
3. If there are any commercial shipping lines and there are tech prerequisites available - this rogue GF can be spawned at new-build pirate base somewhere at small body far from any military and industrial presence, but not so far from civillian routes. Otherwise (and that must be in most cases anyway) they'll spawn at colonies proportional to local rebellion factor (racial rebellion factor / local military presence) and capture it if there is no garrison, otherwise keep silent in defence.
4. Pirate base might include low grav infrastructure, small military shipyard, small MFC and tracking station. From here it will suck on racial wealth, build pirate ships and hunt on civillian ships to scrap them.
This will give some juicy job for Army and Navy, and will result in less JP-focuced empire defences.
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smth like loyalty or unanimity
Conformity or deviancy sound nicer to me
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Would like to see the OP's idea. With an option to turn them off, of course.
The only problem I see is that NPR's don't have dynamic designs yet so extrapolating a warship from a freighter would be super impossible.
Once that happens though...
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I think pirates would be a wonderful addition to the game.
As the OP said, it would provide a reasonable, low-threat enemy, but a constant one. Something to encourage rear line defenses, at least on a certain scale.
It doesn't need to be nearly as complex as the OP would imagine, however. I would propose a few easy rules to define pirates, which could scale nicely to the endgame.
- Pirates are allowed to use any equipment you have researched, 50 years after you researched it (an exception for research done with starting instant RP, that would be granted earlier, allowing pirates to appear earlier), this means that you can maintain a tech lead in many different ways, making you always 'ahead' by a certain amount.
- Pirates can only make ships equal to half the size of your largest military shipyard, meaning that they will focus on smaller ships, as such they will always be quite a bit weaker than the 'heavy' ships the parent civilization may have.
- Pirates will only establish outposts within one jump of your own systems, and can travel through only stabilized JPs. Pirates will never have jump drives, meaning you do have some control over where they appear, if you are willing to use jump tenders in every location and have no civilian traffic.
- Pirate outposts should be established on any body which is not home to a population, and outposts should prefer places as far from populations as possible, only being closer when there are no suitable bodies.
- Fuel should be a serious limiting factor for pirates, meaning that pirate ships should only leave their outposts when their fuel is full, and fuel generation should be fairly slow overall. This means a decent amount of time can pass between pirate attacks.
I like a lot of the OPs ideas, but I think they are perhaps too complex, or too prone to scaling issues. For example, in my games my smallest military ships are roughly 30k tons, with civilian ships upward of 160k. 1k ships would seem a little bit of a joke in that situation.
Equally I love the boarding and prize rules, but that might be quite complex to code, requiring a lot of new behavior. Whereas something spawning outposts, then ships, would be fairly simple and use most of the existing code in the game.
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I think pirates would be a wonderful addition to the game.
As the OP said, it would provide a reasonable, low-threat enemy, but a constant one. Something to encourage rear line defenses, at least on a certain scale.
It doesn't need to be nearly as complex as the OP would imagine, however. I would propose a few easy rules to define pirates, which could scale nicely to the endgame.
- Pirates are allowed to use any equipment you have researched, 50 years after you researched it (an exception for research done with starting instant RP, that would be granted earlier, allowing pirates to appear earlier), this means that you can maintain a tech lead in many different ways, making you always 'ahead' by a certain amount.
- Pirates can only make ships equal to half the size of your largest military shipyard, meaning that they will focus on smaller ships, as such they will always be quite a bit weaker than the 'heavy' ships the parent civilization may have.
- Pirates will only establish outposts within one jump of your own systems, and can travel through only stabilized JPs. Pirates will never have jump drives, meaning you do have some control over where they appear, if you are willing to use jump tenders in every location and have no civilian traffic.
- Pirate outposts should be established on any body which is not home to a population, and outposts should prefer places as far from populations as possible, only being closer when there are no suitable bodies.
- Fuel should be a serious limiting factor for pirates, meaning that pirate ships should only leave their outposts when their fuel is full, and fuel generation should be fairly slow overall. This means a decent amount of time can pass between pirate attacks.
I like a lot of the OPs ideas, but I think they are perhaps too complex, or too prone to scaling issues. For example, in my games my smallest military ships are roughly 30k tons, with civilian ships upward of 160k. 1k ships would seem a little bit of a joke in that situation.
Equally I love the boarding and prize rules, but that might be quite complex to code, requiring a lot of new behavior. Whereas something spawning outposts, then ships, would be fairly simple and use most of the existing code in the game.
Well, apparently NPRs can board you in the current version of the game, so that doesn't require any work.
As for ships being too small, remember that pirates should focus on speed and stealth to sneak up on unarmed civilian craft so they can board them. A large ship would not be ideal for this role, and pirates should avoid standup fights anyways.
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I think they must use not a single-ship doctrine, but a pair of desingn series: fast boarding shuttles + small commercial-engine tenders (with boat bays for boarding shuttles). No need for them to have much weapon - we have enough heavy armed opponents.
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An enemy which mainly uses boarding might be a good idea.
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An enemy which mainly uses boarding might be a good idea.
I honestly think a certain balanced approach might be better. But them uniquely using boarding would be cool.
But seriously, pirates are not going to try to board military ships most times, they will run or fight.
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Really cool idea, and have thought about this as well ever since VB6. Having 'smuggler' ships in there as well would be pretty cool too. More reason for customs / patrol / interdiction type craft around busy populated planets.
Basic idea for smugglers ties into pirate idea in that a small fraction of civilian commercial ships spawn as "smuggler ships" that take away money you'd had gotten from trade, increase unrest (drugs and illegal substances, weapons, etc.), and funnel the money they make back to pirate factions, making them more powerful over time. Combined with a short and sweet "customs interdiction" order you can set ships with boarding shuttles to and just leave them in busy systems, where they buzz around and board random freighters to inspect and find smugglers.
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I like this. I always think about having patrol in my system but I never done it since it was just a waste of fuel but with this it wont be. I guess we can make some epic battle with small patrol/gun boat.
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I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.
In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.
So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.
Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.
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I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.
In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.
So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.
Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.
Please let us know how it goes, it'll be an interesting experiment to see play out.
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I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.
These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...
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I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.
These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...
I love this idea. Fits the Ork-like theme. Fleets of Kill kroozers and fighta-bommers
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I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.
These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...
I love this idea. Fits the Ork-like theme. Fleets of Kill kroozers and fighta-bommers
I suppose the big question is what separates these from Precursors aside from flavor? It's pretty rare I think for a player who knows what they're doing to send a civilian flotilla into an unsecured system, which means most likely these "pirates" would just blow up a survey ship and then be fodder for a battle fleet. Unless they start exploring and jumping into other systems looking for targets in which case they're not terribly distinct from the other spoiler NPRs unless Steve puts a ton of work into crafting a new AI that actually plays like a pirate faction.
I suspect it will probably be easier to implement pirates as a separate spoiler race which spawns ships in "deep space" away from any bodies or orbits and has massive (racial secret tech?) passive sensors to detect large commercial engine signatures entering the system. "Large" being important here because otherwise they'll just attack the first survey ship to jump in.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
- So like Invaders, but spooky? I like it. In fact I like it more than the regular Invaders.
- EDIT: I've thought about this one a lot too, but my ideas went totally in the opposite direction. I imagined a system where the "Pirates" functioned in a similar way to CMCs. They would, however, be NPRs with ships and such. Much like NPRs they would have flavors, i.e.; boarders who tried to steal warships, fighter based groups who preformed hit and runs against civilian shipping lines. Their populations would have only a tenth of the EM/TH sig of a normal Payer Race or NPR, they would have their own facilities... stuff like "Pirate Base" to churn out free MSP, fuel and the like. They would scale up too, as time went on, so that in particularly large empires they might even make bandit kingdoms of sorts. The idea would also be to have NPRs able to spawn in these "Pirates" and they would have their own factions and diplomacy to act between them based on the existing NPR systems. I'll elaborate on this more in a different post for anyone who wants to read it, for now I have far more pressing concerns... pancakes! ;D
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
This sounds very cool, and I like the idea of having them as a spoiler race not just called "pirates" since that leaves the door open for player-managed "pirate" factions in RP games as well. Anything that incentivizes rear area patrols has my vote.
Mechanically I don't know if there needs to be a limitation on their ability to depart our dimension if they use a fixed-point gateway to enter. They would still have to fly away from their entry point to carry out their raids, and flee back once they feel they are outmatched or beaten back which offers the choice of either running them off with a heavier patrol fleet or trying to chase them down before they escape.
It would also be neat if capturing their ships would let the player use the Webway analogue to travel to/raid other systems without needing the JP network. Might be blatantly OP, but might also be balanced by the restriction to spoiler-designed ships only - no transiting an entire battle fleet into the NPR home world, just a couple of small raiders.
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Perhaps the raiders/corsairs can only enter or exit real-space outside of a predetermined (perhaps a function of the body's gravity) distance from a stellar body. This would give the player a small period of time to detect and respond to a raid before it occurs or stop it from making off with its gains. This would, in my opinion, allow for a system garrison fleet to sit in an anchorage, but would also require light patrols (a couple of destroyers/frigates/light cruisers) throughout the system to detect the raiders, whilst not forcing the player to burn through vast amounts of fuel or material garrisoning or patrolling every colony with a battle-fleet or division.
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Would this new pirate/dark eldar spoiler race have an impact on PPV? The PPV system always struck me as a way to try and ensure that populations weren't left unrealistically undefended and essentially abstracted out things like pirates / regular internal space patrols etc. If there's a mechanic being introduced which manifests that abstraction, at least in part, it might be worth revisiting PPV at the same time?
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I would really like to see the addition of a 'pirate' race which compels me to build light forces and keep them in the rear areas. A couple of thoughts:
1. I think this has to be distinct from other spoilers in that they mostly operate as smaller formations. Their base ships are smaller, incredibly fast, stealthy, with great ECM capability. For weapons, perhaps they should be a microwave and boarding heavy force whose aim is to capture rather destroy ships. I agree that they shouldn't be able to stand up to a major battlefleet but I think individually or as a wolf-pack they should be incredibly dangerous - a single destroyer or light cruiser could be destroyed/taken. You'll need a small squadron to handle these guys.
2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates. I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up. This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456? These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'
3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out. Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.
4. One interesting variable is that there is a special trigger that happens - perhaps every so often when a gateway appears (If the gateway stays in existence for 5 years +/- modifier), out comes a huge fleet intent on capturing a colony for enslavement. This fleet makes a bee-line for the closest colony and lands on the planet and initiates a ground campaign to take it over an enslave the population. If it manages to take over the colony, then this new system ends up becoming a pirate haven.
Just a couple of ideas for this.
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That sounds awesome Steve!
One thing I thought of, if these fellows want slaves, why not have them attack unguarded planets with ground troops and colony ships so they can carry off your population back to their cities? The counter is to have more than a certain quantity of troops per unit of population, or have space ships guarding the planet. For example, if there is several hundred thousand tons worth of ground troops on a small colony with just over a millions population, it is not worth the effort, but if there is a few hundred thousand tons of troops on a world with two billion population, then it is worth overcoming the ground forces to start enslaving your population.
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2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates. I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up. This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456? These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'
3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out. Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.
I don't think PPV needs to be brought into the discussion. It works fine as it is since it supposed to model the need a population in a system feels for protection by your glorious space navy. All pirates are doing is giving PPV in your rear areas (not threatened by any other NPR or spoiler, barring a dormant JP) a rationale.
Tying the appearance of pirates to PPV also strikes me as poor gameplay because it turns what should be a fun spoiler race into something you only see if you play the game badly, i.e., don't properly garrison your systems. A spoiler race should be something you encounter while playing the game fairly well - all of the other spoiler races are encountered due to exploration which is a core game mechanic you would never not do barring RP reasons or start-of-game turtling in Sol.
It would also take away what is currently a viable strategic game decision, as currently players can choose to address PPV with ships or with large enough ground force garrisons. Tying pirate appearance to PPV basically makes the ground forces approach useless and eliminates a small bit of decision-making from the game.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
That sounds really fun, and would really flesh out the game in some solid ways, requiring you to pay attention to 'back line' systems to a certain extent, while also making it harder to ignore military via careful expansion and turtling.
I would suggest it be something that cannot ever be 'beaten', making it a constant threat. At the same time, you want it to get 'worse' if ignored, and let it feel like a worthwhile thing to actually kill. Perhaps something like a point buy system for their fleet and invasions? They 'buy' ships with points they gain at a steady rate, and those ships never actually go away unless killed. That way if you don't kill enemy ships and they escape they will have more ships in the future. Ignored long enough, they might actually become a serious threat to real fleets, with a cap of course.
This would mean that every ship killed represented the destruction of a real asset, and thus would have future impact, but still would mean that eventually the pirates would build back up again and become a threat.
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2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates. I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up. This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456? These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'
3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out. Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.
I don't think PPV needs to be brought into the discussion. It works fine as it is since it supposed to model the need a population in a system feels for protection by your glorious space navy. All pirates are doing is giving PPV in your rear areas (not threatened by any other NPR or spoiler, barring a dormant JP) a rationale.
Tying the appearance of pirates to PPV also strikes me as poor gameplay because it turns what should be a fun spoiler race into something you only see if you play the game badly, i.e., don't properly garrison your systems. A spoiler race should be something you encounter while playing the game fairly well - all of the other spoiler races are encountered due to exploration which is a core game mechanic you would never not do barring RP reasons or start-of-game turtling in Sol.
It would also take away what is currently a viable strategic game decision, as currently players can choose to address PPV with ships or with large enough ground force garrisons. Tying pirate appearance to PPV basically makes the ground forces approach useless and eliminates a small bit of decision-making from the game.
I disagree. I don't think it takes away from gameplay at all and sometimes imposing a consequence for 'bad' gameplay makes for an interesting situation. If I choose to expand irresponsibly and not guard/garrison my colonies, didn't make enough ships and array my forces correctly, or simply became inattentive, than this would occur. I think good gameplay presents choices and dilemmas for players. Just judging from my own playstyle and experiences, I think this actually creates those sorts of decisions in systems away from the 'frontlines'.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
You could tie it to their size. The larger the size, the longer it takes them to be able to retreat. Or maybe a certain distance from the primary. Or both :)
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I disagree. I don't think it takes away from gameplay at all and sometimes imposing a consequence for 'bad' gameplay makes for an interesting situation. If I choose to expand irresponsibly and not guard/garrison my colonies, didn't make enough ships and array my forces correctly, or simply became inattentive, than this would occur. I think good gameplay presents choices and dilemmas for players. Just judging from my own playstyle and experiences, I think this actually creates those sorts of decisions in systems away from the 'frontlines'.
To be clear, my issue isn't having the pirate mechanic punish bad play, frankly I think it does that anyways. My point is that I want to see pirates regardless of how well I play, and then suffer or benefit accordingly - if my garrison is insufficient, I get hammered, but if my garrison is adequate I get to blow something up and loot the bodies, hip hip hooray. Locking a spoiler race behind PPV so that they only appear if I'm playing badly rather defeats the point of a spoiler race and frankly isn't nearly as fun (or as RP-friendly, as it's a bit awkward to justify a large patrol force if they never get to fight anything...).
Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.
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I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.
In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.
So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.
Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.
Please let us know how it goes, it'll be an interesting experiment to see play out.
I have not forgotten about this. As said I'm playing the game slow and only 27 years has passed since the beginning. I have found a couple of systems suitable for minning colonies and one of the spoilers has a small base in other system next to mine. The Navy has been built at lightspeed so the pirates in my will have a very hard life, hahaha. Will keep you updated when I finally "start" with them.
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Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.
I've always viewed PPV as the requirements for a gendarme or coast guard force rather than anything else
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Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.
I've always viewed PPV as the requirements for a gendarme or coast guard force rather than anything else
That's broadly my understanding of PPV as well. it's to ensure that the player devotes resources to system / population defences beyond the front line. The current abstraction of that just results in ground forces / ships being permanently stationed with no further consideration of effectiveness or engagement from the player beyond meeting the PPV value. But these dark eldar/pirates would present a threat that would require active system defences, and probably warrant designing effective patrol ships rather than platforms with guns. That seems a much more interesting / engaging mechanic that does what PPV purports to do.
Whatever about an overhaul of PPV, it would make sense for the PPV requirement to go up if commercial ships are lost to raiding - or maybe just a direct modifier to Unrest? Unless the raids were exceptionally frequent, or started targeting installations (fuel harvesters, mining ships etc) there's a risk of the new spoiler race being ignored as an annoyance that kills some commercial craft from time to time. That would be a shame because the concept is quite cool.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
This sounds cool and fun. Some of my favorite times in Aurora are when the NPR/spoilers push me. I fondly remember this game where my starting system was invaded by a NPR and I worked hard to fight them off, but ended up losing in the end. Unfortunately that type of experience isn't common in all the games I've played. I'd love to see more pressure from the AI.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.
In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.
In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.
Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.
I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.
It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.
Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.
I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.
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Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.
I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.
It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.
Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.
I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.
I can certainly see the appeal of something like that. However, even aside from the work that would be involved adding a more detailed internal political system to Aurora, I don't think this style of "spoiler" NPR would fit Aurora very well. Another game, maybe, but not Aurora.
Let me explain my thought process: Every other NPR, including spoilers, in Aurora is encountered by just playing the game as usual, most commonly NPRs including all spoilers will be encountered through exploring the galaxy which is a core element of gameplay. What Steve has outlined is a departure from convention somewhat in that the interdimensional space raiders would appear in colonized systems rather than when a new system is explored, but it still fits the same concept as the others - you encounter them while playing the game as usual and have to deal with them as they appear.
Tying a "pirate" spoiler, however you flavor it, to the player's actual gameplay and empire management changes that concept, particularly if they only appear as a response to the player playing "badly" in some way. If I tick the box to Spawn Pirates in the new game setup window, it's because I want to fight some space pirates. Forcing the player to play "badly" to encounter a spoiler race strikes me as poor game design.
Note that "badly" doesn't have to be actual bad gameplay. For example, if space pirates are freedom fighters who only appear if you oppress a conquered species too heavily (say as a reaction to the forced labor camps mechanic), then "playing badly" would mean abusing the forced labor camps. In my mind this doesn't solve the problem, only changes the colors - if I want to fight space pirates, that should not have to be tied to me making a particular gameplay choice beyond "explore" and "colonize", which I would do anyways because that's the basic gameplay. If I want to RP as a benevolent colonizer instead of a slaving overlord, I should be able to do that and fight space pirates because I checked that box regardless of my gameplay decisions.
Again, it's not a bad concept by itself and would work in other games, but I don't feel like it matches the spirit of Aurora's game design specifically.
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I agree with nuclearslurpee here. The sort of 'pirates' you describe, Borealis4x, would absolutely require a complete overhaul of the political system and introduction probably several new features. The current political system is as barebones as can be which allows a lot of roleplaying as different factions but does not support advanced mechanics. Even if such mechanics were added, there is a big risk where the system becomes pointless busywork, ie do X per Y colony and that takes care of it.
For an example, players really wanted the AI to commit more invasions in Hearts of Iron 3 as the AI almost never did them in the first two games. Paradox complied but because the AI in general, and especially on strategic level, is piss poor, the outcome was just pointless busywork for the player. Let's say you play as Germany - you need to garrison every port province with a single division as otherwise the AI will send 2-3 division invasion force in it, regardless of the fact that you have 10 Panzer divisions nearby. So both UK and US would bleed themselves dry repeatedly invading through tiny ports (thus not getting enough supplies through) and getting slaughtered to the point that the player could just march into London and Washington without any resistance. So if you wanted to have any hope of resistance when invading Britain and North-America, you HAD TO garrison every port from White Sea to Bay of Biscay or the AI would suicide.
We already have PPV and unrest. While I'd like to see colonies becoming independent if unrest becomes too high, I don't think adding a spawning piracy faction out of your empire adds anything if the counter to it is just keeping PPV demands met. And a better system would need Steve to add in some modelling of population groups and politics like in Stellar, and I don't think he has interest for that and it would be a lot of work.
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Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.
I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.
It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.
Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.
I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.
I can certainly see the appeal of something like that. However, even aside from the work that would be involved adding a more detailed internal political system to Aurora, I don't think this style of "spoiler" NPR would fit Aurora very well. Another game, maybe, but not Aurora.
Let me explain my thought process: Every other NPR, including spoilers, in Aurora is encountered by just playing the game as usual, most commonly NPRs including all spoilers will be encountered through exploring the galaxy which is a core element of gameplay. What Steve has outlined is a departure from convention somewhat in that the interdimensional space raiders would appear in colonized systems rather than when a new system is explored, but it still fits the same concept as the others - you encounter them while playing the game as usual and have to deal with them as they appear.
Tying a "pirate" spoiler, however you flavor it, to the player's actual gameplay and empire management changes that concept, particularly if they only appear as a response to the player playing "badly" in some way. If I tick the box to Spawn Pirates in the new game setup window, it's because I want to fight some space pirates. Forcing the player to play "badly" to encounter a spoiler race strikes me as poor game design.
Note that "badly" doesn't have to be actual bad gameplay. For example, if space pirates are freedom fighters who only appear if you oppress a conquered species too heavily (say as a reaction to the forced labor camps mechanic), then "playing badly" would mean abusing the forced labor camps. In my mind this doesn't solve the problem, only changes the colors - if I want to fight space pirates, that should not have to be tied to me making a particular gameplay choice beyond "explore" and "colonize", which I would do anyways because that's the basic gameplay. If I want to RP as a benevolent colonizer instead of a slaving overlord, I should be able to do that and fight space pirates because I checked that box regardless of my gameplay decisions.
Again, it's not a bad concept by itself and would work in other games, but I don't feel like it matches the spirit of Aurora's game design specifically.
I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment. The way I envisioned it, pirates would spawn on otherwise useless rocks that were out of the range of any type of sensors and in systems with enough civilian traffic to make it worthwhile. You are unlikely to be in a situation where none of those criteria can be met, unless you are a lot more patient than me and make sure every possible body in every 'connected' system has sensor coverage. Perhaps you do that with a few important systems, but would you really commit to covering all of them? Is it worth the expense to make sure absolutely no pirates ever spawn in your empire when they can be dealt with relatively easily?
If you can, then good for you, its probably the endgame and you have nothing else to spend resources or time on so you might as well start a new game. If not, then its not because you are 'playing badly' its because you are prioritizing other things while expanding at a steady clip, which to me is 'playing well'. Why cover every inch of your empire with expensive sensors when a small squadron of last-gen corvettes would do and can go anywhere they are needed?
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I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment.
I tried to clarify, but "playing badly" doesn't have to mean actual poor gameplay. I'm referencing this statement:
I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.
In this context, "playing badly" means playing in a way that has motivated whatever pirate faction to emerge - terrorists, rebels, corporate breakways, what have you. Basically, "badly" from the perspective of the piratical faction.
My issue is that having a spoiler faction which only occurs as a response to specific policies (however those are effected in gameplay terms) is at odds with the way spoilers work in Aurora, such that I don't think that brand of spoiler faction really fits into the game. It's not a bad idea, and in another game built around that kind of mechanic it would work quite well, just not in Aurora. In Aurora, if I check the "Spawn Pirates" button, I want to see pirates regardless of anything else I do, plain and simple, same as for every other spoiler.
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I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment.
I tried to clarify, but "playing badly" doesn't have to mean actual poor gameplay. I'm referencing this statement:
I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.
In this context, "playing badly" means playing in a way that has motivated whatever pirate faction to emerge - terrorists, rebels, corporate breakways, what have you. Basically, "badly" from the perspective of the piratical faction.
My issue is that having a spoiler faction which only occurs as a response to specific policies (however those are effected in gameplay terms) is at odds with the way spoilers work in Aurora, such that I don't think that brand of spoiler faction really fits into the game. It's not a bad idea, and in another game built around that kind of mechanic it would work quite well, just not in Aurora. In Aurora, if I check the "Spawn Pirates" button, I want to see pirates regardless of anything else I do, plain and simple, same as for every other spoiler.
When I said the player could imagine pirates being any sort of threat they wanted, I meant from a strictly RP perspective. Sorry that wasn't clear.
The only criteria for pirates to spawn would be as I outlined above; worthless rock, no sensor coverage, healthy amount of civilian traffic.
I do not want to add a whole new political layer to Aurora just to make pirate spawns more in-depth. The player can imagine for themselves why pirates are spawning and what their goals are.
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I'm kind of sorry I missed this thread until now.
I've long had an idea for pirates based on the "Unbound" from The Last Angel series, or I guess the Reavers from Firefly are kind of a one system example. Basically a collection of outcasts, criminals, and remnants of destroyed/conquered races that don't have a permanent planetary home, instead wandering from system to system salvaging, looting, and attacking targets of opportunity. This isn't a perfect fit for Aurora, with its requirement for military ships to have maintenance, but I figure it's not too hard to imagine these races have an alternate design philosophy where they have military ships that are less efficient (IE slower/fewer guns/armor instead of shields) in return for being extremely low maintenance. Maybe that could even be a reward for dealing with them - chances to get an improved engineering space tech from the wreckage like you can/could get compressed fuel tanks from ruins.
The basic idea of how they'd work in Aurora would be every once and awhile a pirate fleet would appear from an unexplored jump point and wander around a bit looking for targets, including other systems. Their preferred target would be commercial ships or maybe undefended colonies, occasionally trying to take on very lightly defended stuff. Basically a reason to send a few escorts to keep an eye on your fuel harvesters, automated mining colonies, and such instead of leaving your whole fleet at the homeworld all the time, and a justification for why that colony in the middle of nowhere demands some defenses.
If they found a target they thought they could take they'd go for it with boarding parties/ground troops for colonies. In the case of ships, they'd fly away with them, on colonies they'd load up whatever they could in terms of minerals/installations/population and leave the rest, so it might not be a total loss. They'd then attempt to return to the unexplored jump point that spawned them before your forces could stop them, and if they did they'd despawn - the point being they don't actually have a permanent base to attack, they're just sort of the wandering mobs of space. This would both encourage spreading your fleet around - if you can hit them before they escape you can maybe grab your stuff back - and encourage actually exploring jump points before colonizing a system.
I picture their ships as kind of blurring the line between military and commercial - freighter like with light to moderate armor and a few light weapons. So slow and not a threat to a big fleet but possibly enough to overwhelm a lone destroyer or light planetary garrison, and the kind of ship that isn't practical with standard Aurora mechanics but makes sense if they could have military ships with commercial maintenance rules - basically freighters with a few guns bolted on if we imagine the rules allowed them to only need to maintain the guns.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.
Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.
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It seems that Steve already decided about the pirate faction per his post in 1.14.0 Changes:
I've also started adding a new spoiler race based on the comments I made in the 'Pirates' thread, so I don't want to release that half-finished because that could lead to unpredictable bugs.
But for local pirates originating from you empire, I agree with Bremen that ships similar to merchant raiders or Q-ships deployed in WW1 and WW2 would be most likely scenario. There must be civilian shipyards that construct civilian ships for shipping companies in your empire, so it would not be that surprising if there were some corrupt officials that would look other way, while one of the civilian ships would be equipped with some illegal components.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.
Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.
Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.
So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.
Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.
Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.
So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"
I wouldn't limit it to 'only' since that removes the whole point of pirates requiring you to defend your 'internal' areas. But I think that each unexplored jump point, discovered or not, should act like a multiplier on the frequency or strength of attacks. Then you have one system, which is logical, which serves both purposes.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.
Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.
Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.
So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"
I wouldn't limit it to 'only' since that removes the whole point of pirates requiring you to defend your 'internal' areas. But I think that each unexplored jump point, discovered or not, should act like a multiplier on the frequency or strength of attacks. Then you have one system, which is logical, which serves both purposes.
I'm not sure about the latter idea since it would have the opposite effect - every jump point you explore is going to, on average, reveal more than one unexplored jump point (at least absent exploring nearly the entire map), and therefor if more unexplored jump points = more pirates, you'd be motivated to explore as few jump points as possible. Also Aurora endgame already tends to bog down enough and I worry this change would mean late game empires with hundreds of explored systems would mean a pirate spawn every week or something.
I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
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I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.
As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.
However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
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I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.
As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.
However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.
Well, I agree it shouldn't be tied to JPs automatically, but larger raids through unknown jump points would also solve another problem, using the same basic system. So you'd have larger raids moving in across conventional routes of invasion through jump points, and then you'd have constant smaller raids that can come from the edge of the system to pressure the internal areas.
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The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.
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I think it works better if the chance of pirates spawning remains the same but they do so at unexplored jump points, so exploring further out from your colonies means you still get the same total number of pirates, but they start further out and you have more time to react (if you have sensors in place to see them coming) or at least pursue. I do think they should be able to spawn at an unexplored jump point even if you have a presence in the system, because otherwise you're back to the earlier problem of perverse incentives since not exploring any unknown jump points in a colony system would mean you'd never have to worry about pirates.
As Steve is already working on this I will trust whatever implementation he comes up with as he seems to know what he is doing in terms of game design.
However, I think the idea of the pirates mechanic is to provide a threat to interior colonies/lines of communication which provides some rational flavor for the PPV mechanic and a fun mini-encounter every so often. Having them tied to unexplored jump points presses the pirate mechanic to only threaten your outer rim territories which defeats this aim. I think it will be better for them to just spawn wherever there is a suitable commerce corridor or wealthy colony to raid to motivate the player to protect their colonies with a couple of cruisers each or similar.
This reply chain wasn't based on Steve's response but just my own idea of pirates I'd tossed up in the thread earlier. If it inspires Steve in any way that's great, but mostly I just tossed it out because I liked the idea.
For what it's worth, I saw the goal as the complete opposite of menacing interior colonies - currently pretty much the best strategy, and the one I think most people use, is to consolidate your fleet and either keep it at your homeworld or a few naval bases/borders with hostiles. Having a nebulous threat at the borders would mean you'd be incentivized to use things like patrols and system defense forces for your smaller colonies.
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Just to toss my image of potential pirates out here:
They would spawn like mining colonies, except with a lower pop limit, meaning they could spawn in any system with your colony above let's say 1m pop.
Only bodies they would spawn at would be moons or asteroids without minerals to lower chance of detection.
Their colony would start with 1kt shipyard and tiny bit of fighter production.
First pirate ships would be fac sized carriers hauling around boarding craft. Pirate boarding party on such vessel would consist of light personal weapons, light armor infantry with tech lvl one below player.
Such ships wouldnt be much of an issue to larger vessels, preying mainly on passenger lines and small ships. They would attempt boarding larger vessels as well. Mainly to made player aware of the threat.
If captured, player would get an option to buy back their ship for funds equal to its build cost. Shipping companies would buy back fixed % of ships.
Profits from this activity would go towards 2 things: more pirate vessels and expansion. Pirates wouldnt build ships, they would spawn them like shipping companies using only funds.
If sufficient wealth is amassed, pirate outpost would build bigger shipyard and one of all shipyards of lower size. 2kt, 4kt, 6kt, 8kt, 12kt.
2kt ships would be bigger versions of carrier fac with large enough boarder group to threaten shipping routes.
4kt would be lightly armed frigate capable of defending itself.
6kt crafts would be mostly in support roles. Sensor vessels, tugs, salvagers.
8kt would be either carriers or light cruiser. Either spelling doom for any lesser vessels unlucky enough to come within range.
12kt capital. If base got to this point, fleet would be needed to deal with pirate threat. Heavy anti ship weapons, heavy armor and absolute disregard for moderation would turn any shipping line it comes upon into wreck field.
Ships would only operate in the system they spawned in. Spawning one ship from each shipyard every 5-10 years.
Also, any ships not bought back would be parked above pirate world. Maintainence clock frozen and they would become available for modifications.
10 years after sitting above pirate world with 12kt shipyard, their cargo hold would be replaced with civilian hangars and maintenance/fuel storage.
After filing itself with ships, these carriers would attempt to blend into civilian traffic and leave the system. Then would operate from there.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
With regards the fuel and minerals and such, couldn't the Pirate NPR just cheat by directly converting the wealth it gathers into those things? We can assume the pirates are buying it off the black market and using smugglers the player can't see to supply themselves with the basics.
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The way that Aurora4X is made, I wouldn't consider pirates to be feasible.
Ever tried playing as a pirate empire, with a base on an inhospitable rock?
The very first issue is the resources - they are Limited. They don't regenerate over time, or new resources spawn with asteroids and comets arriving and leaving, or gravitational force attracting new trans-newtonian elements. This has to be solved first.
Second issue - ground forces and construction - in the game we have huge amounts of different ground-based facilities that are crucial for your empire to exist. We have 4 different types of ground construction facilities (ordnance, construction, fighter and ground force construction). This has to be simplified, for pirates to economically exist. That is, we need a factory that can do all 4. Please don't add a special structure that only pirates can use.
The third, somewhat limited, issue - the way that military/commercial ships/stations are classified. This also has to be changed in order for pirates to be a worthy and somewhat effective. Either, we need to remove this commercial/military designation, or create yet another designation (which would be special for pirates and which I personally CURSE - why normal empires can't use underhanded tactics!?)
If these issues are solved, I can see pirates to be a possibility and even an interesting empire to play as.
Seriously, I hate that there are special rules for special entities. I want to make sure that all of them use the same rules and actually play the same game...
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The way that Aurora4X is made, I wouldn't consider pirates to be feasible.
Ever tried playing as a pirate empire, with a base on an inhospitable rock?
The very first issue is the resources - they are Limited. They don't regenerate over time, or new resources spawn with asteroids and comets arriving and leaving, or gravitational force attracting new trans-newtonian elements. This has to be solved first.
Second issue - ground forces and construction - in the game we have huge amounts of different ground-based facilities that are crucial for your empire to exist. We have 4 different types of ground construction facilities (ordnance, construction, fighter and ground force construction). This has to be simplified, for pirates to economically exist. That is, we need a factory that can do all 4. Please don't add a special structure that only pirates can use.
I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.
The third, somewhat limited, issue - the way that military/commercial ships/stations are classified. This also has to be changed in order for pirates to be a worthy and somewhat effective. Either, we need to remove this commercial/military designation, or create yet another designation (which would be special for pirates and which I personally CURSE - why normal empires can't use underhanded tactics!?)
It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.
If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
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I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.
Then my interest in pirates is murdered - I have very little interest to entities that you can't play as...
If we can't create an entity using normal rules, it's not worth the effort.
It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.
If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
Interesting... That is a good suggestion.
Still... about normal or not rules - I did decide to play with spoilers Precursors, Invaders and Rakhas, for the latest play-through, but overall I prefer to play with You know the rules, and so do I! mentality - both play the same game. Considering that most spoilers are essentially a challenge, basically a default NPR with increased technological standing, whose level you can reach and surpass given sufficient time and effort, they aren't exactly rule breaking...
One major issue is related to resources - they are limited. And if any NPR can bypass this limitation (and the player cannot), this makes a very unfair and unbalanced game...
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I don't think anyone was talking about pirates as a playable empire, or a normal NPR, more like the ones that already have special rules like the various types of spoilers.
Then my interest in pirates is murdered - I have very little interest to entities that you can't play as...
If we can't create an entity using normal rules, it's not worth the effort.
It's not really relevant for spoiler-type pirates, but I've personally always liked the idea of removing the military/commercial designation on ships and adding it to components. So if you put a gun on your freighter the maintenance clock would run and every once and awhile the gun would have a chance of failing, but the engine wouldn't have a chance of failing just because your ship now had a gun on it - and if it only had one small gun a few maintenance supplies would last for a long, long time.
If that happened, and maybe also repairing a component with maintenance supplies rewound the maintenance clock again (because it has new parts), I think playing a pirate/nomadic race would be much more practical.
Interesting... That is a good suggestion.
Still... about normal or not rules - I did decide to play with spoilers Precursors, Invaders and Rakhas, for the latest play-through, but overall I prefer to play with You know the rules, and so do I! mentality - both play the same game. Considering that most spoilers are essentially a challenge, basically a default NPR with increased technological standing, whose level you can reach and surpass given sufficient time and effort, they aren't exactly rule breaking...
One major issue is related to resources - they are limited. And if any NPR can bypass this limitation (and the player cannot), this makes a very unfair and unbalanced game...
Aurora is not about playing a balanced game to begin with so that probably is a not a very good argument for anything for this game. It is not suppose to be fair or balanced in any specific way.
Pirates or a version of it will be added to 1.14 which give reasons to protect your logistical and commercial supply lines as well as colonies. The game will drain your resources allot more than it used to do.
As Aurora is first and foremost a story (role-playing) simulation game about limitation and restrictions where you build your own story and rule set you can liberally add or remove any spoilers you find fun to play with, be that all of them or none.
But if you play Aurora as a traditional game in order to "win" it is terribly badly balanced in favour of the human player, to the point of it being nearly broken.
Pirates add an interesting logistical hurdle to deal with and provides a fun story arc for people that like role-play. Steve now added a "pirate" faction to the game in the next version which give us the challenge which pirates could add to the game. If you don't like them you are perfectly fine with turning them off. Personally I find the addition of "pirates" as interesting for several different reasons.
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Aurora is not about playing a balanced game to begin with so that probably is a not a very good argument for anything for this game. It is not suppose to be fair or balanced in any specific way.
Pirates or a version of it will be added to 1.14 which give reasons to protect your logistical and commercial supply lines as well as colonies. The game will drain your resources allot more than it used to do.
As Aurora is first and foremost a story (role-playing) simulation game about limitation and restrictions where you build your own story and rule set you can liberally add or remove any spoilers you find fun to play with, be that all of them or none.
But if you play Aurora as a traditional game in order to "win" it is terribly badly balanced in favour of the human player, to the point of it being nearly broken.
Pirates add an interesting logistical hurdle to deal with and provides a fun story arc for people that like role-play. Steve now added a "pirate" faction to the game in the next version which give us the challenge which pirates could add to the game. If you don't like them you are perfectly fine with turning them off. Personally I find the addition of "pirates" as interesting for several different reasons.
Well... I suppose that many games are unbalanced, with the idea to give player a challenge to overcome...
It would be kind of annoying to see the rule of limited resources violated - making a non-playable entity cheat by spawning new units for free, or straight up creating resources from thin air... But, this in a way can be overcome by salvaging their wrecks.
And yes, I've noticed that pirates are coming.
But, hang on - if this is a story simulation, why can't I play a story from a spoiler point of view be it precursors, invaders, swarm or pirates?
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Well... I suppose that many games are unbalanced, with the idea to give player a challenge to overcome...
It would be kind of annoying to see the rule of limited resources violated - making a non-playable entity cheat by spawning new units for free, or straight up creating resources from thin air... But, this in a way can be overcome by salvaging their wrecks.
And yes, I've noticed that pirates are coming.
But, hang on - if this is a story simulation, why can't I play a story from a spoiler point of view be it precursors, invaders, swarm or pirates?
It all comes down to the time of one person, Steve. Everything you said is part of an ideal that I don't think anyone can fundamentally disagree with. Yes it would be cool if NPRs and spoilers followed the same rules, yes it would be cool to play as spoilers especially pirates (like in distant worlds) but at the end of the day it's just Steve and the source code with a finite amount of time. So if Steve doesn't at some point go "it would be cool to play as pirates", it's probably not going to get added in.
Finally I'd like to say that I'm saying this as someone who doesn't usually like it when people say "this is too complex to implement" in the context of suggestions.
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I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.
So, i was thinking about this. The thing about piracy is that the pirate organization doesnt function like a goverment, but they function more like a business. So their economics are things that have clarity of intent. Meaning that most pirates are smugglers, and those smugglers are then aided by police officers, goverment officials and polititians. This have been the norm since the dawn of time and for as long as we have organized crime.
To have pirates in the game, they would have to be able to hijack part of the civillian production. So, if a colony produces infraestructure, then depending on corruption lv, part of that would be diverted to pirate activity. And some of the civillian trading ships are actually smugglers. The way to deal with that would be trough reducing corruption, however, that would explain how the pirates would be able to sustain an economy strong enough to make small outposts. Now, its one thing to have a small outpost, another is to spawn attack fleets.
In that sense, they would then have to spawn fake civillian ships, and then switch them to pirates in the last minute or so. Better sensors would stop raids and etc, however then we have active means to solve that. That would be intercept them during a raid. After they go dark, they go dark. And depending on the results of the raids, have a bigger economy or what not.
With that, it would mean ships with actual military troops and etc, so if the player fails to deal with piracy, he will have an epidemic. Make them board ships will make their fleets rather easy to deal with in early stages and a nightmare on later ones, since they would be able to hijack ships and etc.
I belive thats the best way to approach pirate economy. Now, if thats viable to put into the game mechanics, i dont know, but it would be interesting to make the players pay attention in the civilian production and etc. Like, a colony with recreational drugs would be great for pirate activity in form of smugglers and a good place to be raided.
That would make it players to actually have garrisons, patrol ships, etc. If we have a decent patrol button, or a way to program patrol routes and etc, that would increase the imersion of pirate activity. Give control to the players of how nightmarish they would want pirates to be would be nice too.
Now i understand that i may appear more complex than it really is, so some points into that:
The pirates would not as much syphon the player's resources, as it would just convert all the production into wealth, and then use this wealth to produce the infraestructure it needs to spawn outposts, bases and eventually ships. And that would work in a percentage because if we look into it, a pirate haven with 2 million population is huge. As far as colonies goes, thats nothing. So EM and Heat emissions would be really low, keeping a low profile and being able to spawn bases even into comets or asteroids. Plus, the wealth needed to provide some operations is actually low. It would have to be higher to spawn ships, fleets and troops later on, but that can be achieved by raiding, looting, and smuggling.
The wealth convertion can be as simple as a variation of wealth, corruption percentage, time and overall system or empire development. The amount of infraestructure needed to make 2-3 million pirates alive is low enough that it is doable by smuggling. The pirates could also be able to capture and rearm player's ships, wich in this case it would just copy the blueprint with the ammo, parasites and etc copied and replenished as needed. The amount of missile stocks and etc would be equivalent of a certain amount of percentage of wealth, and the same goes for shipyards, wich would be slower and smaller than player's shipyards, so pirates ships would be smaller as long as it doesnt capture enough of player's ships, wich in this case could even be commercial too. That would just add to the parts they could put together to make bigger ships.
Now, most of that are just a couple of codes running in the background. The end result would be pirates appearing and disappearing and the player needing to find the bases, outposts and etc. The majority of those calculations are to specify how pirate economy's work and to prevent it to go rampart of unbalanced. While i dont know if it will be needed a big overhaul in the game codes, i belive it should be doable, the question is if its worth doing it because of the amount of work necessary and Steve being just one guy working on the game.
But anyway, i tought i should leave my toughts on the matter and i tried to make this as short as possible.