Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stormtrooper on February 11, 2021, 08:52:57 AM
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So I have a hellish world with 37 atm, 2900 degrees and here's where the problem starts. Automated mines won't cut it because there is an ancient construct.
Orbital habitats are cheap and very fast to produce, however each of them hosts only 200 000 people (so I guess I wouldn't need that much of them for all those 25 000 workers facilities), which means I need 150 of them to only get 30 labs, which isn't much once you approach late game insane research costs.
Tugging 150 habitats through a distance of a dozen billions kilometers is no joke.
I know there's no other way, just wanted to ask how do you deal with such situations? Do you build a lot of them? How do you transport them? Multiple cruises or one big flight of 150 tugs? Or maybe you set up a colony in the neigbourhood dedicated to building them so it requires only a short trip to transport them?
I'm just thinking what I could potentially improve, because it'll take years for my tugs to transfer it all and it's just 30 labs we're talking here.
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My preference is to stack 5 habitat modules in 1-mln pop design and use heavy tugs.
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Stacking them is out of the question for me because then I'd either need to stablise jps I don't want to stabilise or build tenders soooooo big that it hurts me to even try to imagine this. I'm perfectly happy with my 620 000 tons jump tenders and as a result don't build heavier stations than that.
over 2 500 000 tons seems... A lot for one tug...
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I don't see the problem... just build them with one habitat and tug them in place... you should easily be able to automate the process if you time the amount of tugs you have and the speed at which you produce them?!?
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Yes, you can automate the tugging process with order loops. You can even have multiple tugs going on at the same time but in different fleets as long as you can build the OH's fast enough.
Other than that, this sounds like a cool mega project.
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I don't see the problem... just build them with one habitat and tug them in place... you should easily be able to automate the process if you time the amount of tugs you have and the speed at which you produce them?!?
The problem isn't about IRL time and effort of doing it, it's about in-game time and effort of doing it. It's a MASSIVE investment spanning across well over decade only to get mere 30 labs. And timing production and tugging... Why bother when production happens so fast time spent on doing it is so low compared to tugging that it feels like as if it was done with autobuild on?
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The problem isn't about IRL time and effort of doing it, it's about in-game time and effort of doing it. It's a MASSIVE investment spanning across well over decade only to get mere 30 labs. And timing production and tugging... Why bother when production happens so fast time spent on doing it is so low compared to tugging that it feels like as if it was done with autobuild on?
The alternative is that you don't do it... seems simple enough to me. ;)
Either you find that it is worth doing or you don't, that is entirely up to you.
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
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Powerful tugs are useful not for habitats only, but also for terraforming, sorium harvesting, maint. and other types of bases, and in addition for those ships, that have overpowered engines with awful fuel efficiency (I use such monitors to defend critical JPs against doomsday enemies), and to pull back badly damaged ships. Not that it's one-time instrument.
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
But can't you mark the colony as military to prevent this happening or something? Because that sounds scary and I need the population on the planet...
Also completely don't get why you'd want orbital habitats for worlds you will terraform - I'd rather tug more terraforming stations to get to 0 cost quicker rather than bother so much with orbital habitats only for them to don't matter in the end once terraforming is complete...
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If the planet doesn't have a CC listed (like Venus does) and just outright says N/A for a CC you're safe from the orbital pop building infrastructure and spilling over onto the surface.
At least in my 1.11 game, I get the empire-wide research bonus with less than 10m on the site.
30 labs is a lot of labs, I hope you're not trying to move your empires whole research there? I feel if you have the industry that 30 labs is just a small proportion of your capacity you should be rich enough to make it happen.
Otherwise, you can tug some initial population there and then use that to build habitats on site. Also requires a spaceport. Bonus points for using ground force construction capacity.
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30 labs is a lot? You know how long it takes to research 125k+ projects? So at least I'd like to run a few in parallel... I'm defnitely rich enough, it's just it takes timeeeeeee and I'm impatient ;)
says N/A for a CC you're safe from the orbital pop building infrastructure and spilling over onto the surface.
Nope the gravity's allright so it has a colony cost... But shouldn't marking it as military prevent this from happening? That'd be the worst possible outcome, to have the population spill onto the ground and work on lfie support instead of research...
Bonus points for using ground force construction capacity.
Holy smeg you're a genius! How could I not think about it before and have no one suggest it before? Why bother with tugging so damn many habitats if I can make them directly at destination?
I only need to things to make it happen: minerals and construction capacity.
Minerals I can transport.
Construction capacity I can get from "Automated Construction Factories" aka ground construction units indeed.
No population required.
Fast to build.
No tugging micromanagement and endless waiting for it to complete.
This is brilliant.
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
I think the 'idiots on the planet' (whom I also hate) pay their own bills, labor wise. It seems to be tracked separately from when I was dealing with that (though I could be wrong).
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
I think the 'idiots on the planet' (whom I also hate) pay their own bills, labor wise. It seems to be tracked separately from when I was dealing with that (though I could be wrong).
This was my understanding. OrbHab population is supposed to be exclusively manufacturing, and the pop growth + infra that propagates down to the planet surface is purely extra on top of that which is subject to the usual rules - in which case it's free infra, so...
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Let it be known however that I still hate that the idiots are colonizing the surface at all. Its weird and freaky, I don't always mind it but sometimes the planet is utterly inhospitable and they need thousands of infrastructure even for a tiny population.
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I think the 'idiots on the planet' (whom I also hate) pay their own bills, labor wise. It seems to be tracked separately from when I was dealing with that (though I could be wrong).
Unfortunately they don't pay their bills on their own. If you put 20m people on Venus in infrastructure and then put another 5m in habitats on there, the 5m will all go into the service sector.
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There should be a flag to force population to only colonise habitats... so if you flag the colony as a habitat colony then ONLY the habitat should be available for colonisation at that location.
It make zero sense that people try to colonise Venus surface for example if you have a few habitats in orbit.
So infrastructure built at that colony should all be exported and never used locally.
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I don't understand why you'd move you research labs, which require no special resources except a massive population, to a planet that is so difficult to colonize. Just plop them on a 0 cost world or better yet keep them all on Earth. Do Ancient Constructs boost Research Speed somehow?
So far I've had no incentive to build labs anywhere else except for RP, but even that is a pain since its far easier to manage research when they are all on one planet.
Habs are a Go Big or Go Home affair, I only ever use them on Luna since its so close to Earth that size really doesn't matter and I hyper specialize it to be my Financial District moneymaker. If you are going to make a Hab, make it accommodate 5 million so it can support 100 regular installations. Won't cut it for labs, but again I don't understand why you'd export those to such a hostile planet.
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Do Ancient Constructs boost Research Speed
Yes ancient constructs do boost research speed. That's precisely the problem. There's nothing stopping me from keeping them on Earth except need to get that research bonus.
And if anything, making as small habitats as possible is better IMO: if I make a 5 million hab, I can only use one tug that'll either be horribly big, horribly slow or both to some extent.
If I use minimum 500k-sized habs I can have 10 tugs transporting same mass, meaning each one of them is going to do it faster and I don't need them that big.
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I don't understand why you'd move you research labs, which require no special resources except a massive population, to a planet that is so difficult to colonize. Just plop them on a 0 cost world or better yet keep them all on Earth. Do Ancient Constructs boost Research Speed somehow?
So far I've had no incentive to build labs anywhere else except for RP, but even that is a pain since its far easier to manage research when they are all on one planet.
From The 1.10.0 Changes List Reply #3:
Ancient Constructs
In v1.10, anomalies will become Ancient Constructs.
For the most part they will continue to function in the same way, adding a bonus to research projects of a specific research field that takes place on the system body.
So that should answer your question.
P.D: Inputting date manually is hard.
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Thats good to hear. Always thought that anomalies that give bonuses to specific research should be added to incentivize spreading out labs. Glad to see Steve was one step ahead!
I've played this game for months on end and swear I don't know half of it.
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One thought that I had had regarding getting habitats into location . . .
It might be easier to let the habitats bootstrap themselves up a bit. What I mean by that is, lay down enough construction factories and resources for the existing, smaller, habitats' population to build bigger and more efficient habitats.
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I've played this game for months on end and swear I don't know half of it.
Mine is the opposite. I have never had time to try it out yet I know 80% of the theory and 50% of the practice.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so"
-apocryphal
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
I think the 'idiots on the planet' (whom I also hate) pay their own bills, labor wise. It seems to be tracked separately from when I was dealing with that (though I could be wrong).
This was my understanding. OrbHab population is supposed to be exclusively manufacturing, and the pop growth + infra that propagates down to the planet surface is purely extra on top of that which is subject to the usual rules - in which case it's free infra, so...
I thought I experienced something bad and read some posts that verified it, but I may have been mistaken. At some CC costs, adding pop past a certain point actually reduces available workforce. What I thought I saw happening was that the pop on planet couldn't support themselves and reduced the workers on the Hab (the overall colony total available) to make it up. But I may have misinterpreted the data.
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I thought I experienced something bad and read some posts that verified it, but I may have been mistaken. At some CC costs, adding pop past a certain point actually reduces available workforce. What I thought I saw happening was that the pop on planet couldn't support themselves and reduced the workers on the Hab (the overall colony total available) to make it up. But I may have misinterpreted the data.
This will eventually happen for all bodies with a colony cost greater than 1.5, although for most bodies you ever want to have a large colony on the population at which this happens will be large enough that you'd terraform the planet anyways (for example at CC 2.0 the break point is 215.4 million pop). Funny thing is that you can keep adding population and eventually for CC < 5.0 reach a point where you increase manufacturing population again; this point is for any suitable body just short of 242 million pop.
Of course if you have a very high CC you'll reach the break point quickly but the orbital habitats should ensure that you retain manufacturing capability.
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Bonus points for using ground force construction capacity.
Holy smeg you're a genius! How could I not think about it before and have no one suggest it before? Why bother with tugging so damn many habitats if I can make them directly at destination?
I only need to things to make it happen: minerals and construction capacity.
Minerals I can transport.
Construction capacity I can get from "Automated Construction Factories" aka ground construction units indeed.
No population required.
Fast to build.
No tugging micromanagement and endless waiting for it to complete.
This is brilliant.
I tried doing this a while back, but it didn't turn out the way I expected. You need a spaceport to build orbital habitats with construction facilities. Spaceports require population. It is in theory possible to do this and avoid stabilizing JP's or building enormous jump drives, but you do need some initial population to man the spaceport to get started.
Perhaps it is possible with commercial jump drives and two of the smallest orbital habitats.
There is also another solution, but I never got so far as to try it. Find a worthless body in the same system that is easy to colonize. Get 1.000.000 population there and get a spaceport up and running. Build your first habitats, tug them to the target, move all facilities there, and shut down operations on the inital colony. It is a bit more micromanagement, but perhaps more doable than researching and building a jump drive that can handle 500.000 tons.
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I already have jump drive handling 620 tons lol. But... Why would I need a spaceport? If my freifghters have cargo shuttles I can unload the minerals just fine if I remember correctly? And if I have minerals and construction capacity thanks to the "Automated Construction Factories" what else do I need to build an orbital habitat space station?
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I already have jump drive handling 620 tons lol. But... Why would I need a spaceport? If my freifghters have cargo shuttles I can unload the minerals just fine if I remember correctly? And if I have minerals and construction capacity thanks to the "Automated Construction Factories" what else do I need to build an orbital habitat space station?
In addition to minerals and construction capacity, you do need a spaceport to be able to do that. From the wiki/change log: Space Stations can be built by construction factories at any population that includes a Spaceport.
http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=C-Space_Stations
So unless you have a spaceport and the population to support it, you won't get the option to build a ship designed as a space station.
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I already have jump drive handling 620 tons lol. But... Why would I need a spaceport? If my freifghters have cargo shuttles I can unload the minerals just fine if I remember correctly? And if I have minerals and construction capacity thanks to the "Automated Construction Factories" what else do I need to build an orbital habitat space station?
Yeah this is something I missed to. The "space station" construction tab does not appear unless there is a functioning spaceport. I remember wondering why not every colony could build stations but that is why.
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I've steered away from using Hab's on worlds I don't plan on Terraforming if at all possible, due to the pop auto building infra and moving to the surface and causing worker shortages because my Hab peeps now have to work extra hard to support the idiots on the planet.
As Jorgen mentioned and you implied by your quest to find a better way - Unless it's for Role Play it's a pretty straight forward formula. Is the bonus worth the cost. Since it's not given, I'll assume 100% bonus for now. Your choices seem to be try to just get the 10M (iirc) in orbit for the empire wide bonus, or staff 30 labs to get a bonus 30 labs of RP. Seems a lot of effort unless your current pop is a bottleneck for 30 labs worth of RP.
I think the 'idiots on the planet' (whom I also hate) pay their own bills, labor wise. It seems to be tracked separately from when I was dealing with that (though I could be wrong).
This was my understanding. OrbHab population is supposed to be exclusively manufacturing, and the pop growth + infra that propagates down to the planet surface is purely extra on top of that which is subject to the usual rules - in which case it's free infra, so...
That's what I thought too, but I haven't had an opportunity to do it in a real game. I just tried it out though, and found that this is not how it works.
I've tweaked the environmental tolerances of the humans in my current game, so Venus has a colony cost of 50. I SM'd in an orbital habitat and a million people to live in it. 0.82m went into the manufacturing sector, 0.18m into services, and none into agriculture as expected. So far so good, although I would prefer if a fixed 5% of people went into agriculture, even if what they're really doing is making spare parts for the hydroponics gardens.
Then I added 5000 infrastructure and another 1m people. All one million of the new people went into agriculture as expected for a colony cost of 50, but now there are only 0.58m people in manufacturing, because so many people have shifted over to services.
Adding another million people living in infrastructure brings the manufacturing sector down to just 0.3 million.
So it seems that you do have to keep up with population growth by continually adding more orbital habitats in order to maintain your manufacturing sector population. If the planet has a large natural capacity, that will add up to a lot of habitats that you'll have to build and move into place.
I don't recall if any of Steve's games have involved using orbital habitats to staff labs on a body with an ancient construct or not, but maybe we should ask him to SM one in on Venus in his current game and try it out. It would be interesting to see how often he needs to send a new habitat to maintain the manufacturing sector, once he can set it as a stable population.
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That's what I thought too, but I haven't had an opportunity to do it in a real game. I just tried it out though, and found that this is not how it works.
I've tweaked the environmental tolerances of the humans in my current game, so Venus has a colony cost of 50. I SM'd in an orbital habitat and a million people to live in it. 0.82m went into the manufacturing sector, 0.18m into services, and none into agriculture as expected. So far so good, although I would prefer if a fixed 5% of people went into agriculture, even if what they're really doing is making spare parts for the hydroponics gardens.
Then I added 5000 infrastructure and another 1m people. All one million of the new people went into agriculture as expected for a colony cost of 50, but now there are only 0.58m people in manufacturing, because so many people have shifted over to services.
Adding another million people living in infrastructure brings the manufacturing sector down to just 0.3 million.
So it seems that you do have to keep up with population growth by continually adding more orbital habitats in order to maintain your manufacturing sector population. If the planet has a large natural capacity, that will add up to a lot of habitats that you'll have to build and move into place.
I don't recall if any of Steve's games have involved using orbital habitats to staff labs on a body with an ancient construct or not, but maybe we should ask him to SM one in on Venus in his current game and try it out. It would be interesting to see how often he needs to send a new habitat to maintain the manufacturing sector, once he can set it as a stable population.
Ah. So it's not that OrbHab population are being dragged into agricultural jobs, it's the population-based increase in services requirement - which goes up very quick because of the CC. That makes sense, though it obviously limits OrbHabs as they're not very viable for e.g. Venus in that case.
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That's what I thought too, but I haven't had an opportunity to do it in a real game. I just tried it out though, and found that this is not how it works.
I've tweaked the environmental tolerances of the humans in my current game, so Venus has a colony cost of 50. I SM'd in an orbital habitat and a million people to live in it. 0.82m went into the manufacturing sector, 0.18m into services, and none into agriculture as expected. So far so good, although I would prefer if a fixed 5% of people went into agriculture, even if what they're really doing is making spare parts for the hydroponics gardens.
Then I added 5000 infrastructure and another 1m people. All one million of the new people went into agriculture as expected for a colony cost of 50, but now there are only 0.58m people in manufacturing, because so many people have shifted over to services.
Adding another million people living in infrastructure brings the manufacturing sector down to just 0.3 million.
So it seems that you do have to keep up with population growth by continually adding more orbital habitats in order to maintain your manufacturing sector population. If the planet has a large natural capacity, that will add up to a lot of habitats that you'll have to build and move into place.
I don't recall if any of Steve's games have involved using orbital habitats to staff labs on a body with an ancient construct or not, but maybe we should ask him to SM one in on Venus in his current game and try it out. It would be interesting to see how often he needs to send a new habitat to maintain the manufacturing sector, once he can set it as a stable population.
Ah. So it's not that OrbHab population are being dragged into agricultural jobs, it's the population-based increase in services requirement - which goes up very quick because of the CC. That makes sense, though it obviously limits OrbHabs as they're not very viable for e.g. Venus in that case.
This is why the weighting that this game does is actually important for making habitats useful long term on high CC worlds. Essentially if a world results in 100% agriculture worker requirement and has a capacity of 2bn, if you have 2bn worth of orbital habitat and a total population of 4bn, the agriculture requirement is pushed down to 50% of the total population. I'd imagine that if you had 4bn habitat population and 2bn surface population this can be pushed down to 25% agriculture. Mind you, this is an extreme example but the point is that weighting the agriculture requirement based on the orbital/surface capacity ratio helps make sure that spilling into the surface can actually work out.
Of course the cost of building that much habitation capacity is another matter entirely.
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This will eventually happen for all bodies with a colony cost greater than 1.5, although for most bodies you ever want to have a large colony on the population at which this happens will be large enough that you'd terraform the planet anyways (for example at CC 2.0 the break point is 215.4 million pop). Funny thing is that you can keep adding population and eventually for CC < 5.0 reach a point where you increase manufacturing population again; this point is for any suitable body just short of 242 million pop.
Of course if you have a very high CC you'll reach the break point quickly but the orbital habitats should ensure that you retain manufacturing capability.
Uhhhh, I don't think that's how it works? Every point of CC adds 5% to the environment workers. At 4 CC, the percentage will be 30%, above which no workers will ever work for manufacturing once the said breaking point is reached.
Sorry, just realised you said LESS than 5 and not MORE than, nevermind.
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This will eventually happen for all bodies with a colony cost greater than 1.5, although for most bodies you ever want to have a large colony on the population at which this happens will be large enough that you'd terraform the planet anyways (for example at CC 2.0 the break point is 215.4 million pop). Funny thing is that you can keep adding population and eventually for CC < 5.0 reach a point where you increase manufacturing population again; this point is for any suitable body just short of 242 million pop.
Of course if you have a very high CC you'll reach the break point quickly but the orbital habitats should ensure that you retain manufacturing capability.
Uhhhh, I don't think that's how it works? Every point of CC adds 5% to the environment workers. At 4 CC, the percentage will be 30%, above which no workers will ever work for manufacturing once the said breaking point is reached.
Sorry, just realised you said LESS than 5 and not MORE than, nevermind.
And to make sure it's clear, it's less than CC 5.0, which means even CC 4.99 will still (very, very slowly) gain manufacturing workers above 242m pop. The fraction of agricultural workers is (1 + CC) * 5%, so at CC 5.0 you have 30% agriculture, not CC 4.0 where you "only" have 25%.