Logistics, logistics, logistics....

[Arwyn (OP)]

So, I started a new game for 5.42 and ran into a multi-system NPR 2 jumps away from Sol. Both of us apparently found and started to survey a very nice habitable system. In the time it took me to get some geosurvey ships assigned to the new system, my new neighbor slapped down some listening posts on the two habitable planets, one of them with ruins in place.

Needless to say, he didn't seem to want to share the goodies and potted one of my ships despite having a fairly decent relationship. After a mutual exchange of pleasantries, I wound up in possession of the system and had ground forces landed on the two planets to seize his listening posts. All is well, and I got to salvage some slightly more advanced tech from the wrecks.

Now the down side is HOLDING the system from the NPR. Unlike some of my previous games, I don't have jack in the way of infrastructure or support in the newly acquired system, nor an easy way to get them there, and the previous tenant seems a bit irate with me and inclined to require his previous property.

So, the problem is how I can get naval assets in system fast enough and keep them there for long durations. Fuel and ammo isn't an issue, maintenance on the other hand, is an issue. I am rotating squadrons in and out of the system, but its getting rather expensive in terms of parts and repairs to keep them there. What I am trying to figure out is an effective way of getting maintenance into the system without having some of the more advanced tech to do so.

What have you longer term players done to get around this issue?

[Brian Neumann]

Build some ships with maintenance modules on them.  Put together a fleet of these that combined can support the ships you want to leave in system.  As they are mobile they will be able to move if a major attack takes place.  The maintenance module takes 5000rp to reasearch.  After that they take up the same space as a cargo hold on a ship.  If instead you were to build mainenance facilities and transport them by freighter, each facility would take 5 cargo holds.  You will also need a source of minerals to keep the ships from having problems.  Either bring them in by freighter or if there is a source in system that you can use to mine them then do that.  My preference is to find an asteroid that has the minerals and to use a ship configured as an asteroid miner.  This is also a 5000rp project at it works the same as an automine on asteroids only.  It also is the same size as a cargo hold wich is 1/5 the size of an automine.  The biggest benifit from this is that the mainenance depot for the system could be anywhere in system so it is not easy for them to find it.  couple this with a few passive sensor buoys near the jump point to let you know when they jump in and you can have a viable system defense setup without having to sit on the jump point.

Brian

[Starkiller]

Nice idea, BUT, I like jump point sitting, myself. I usually park a ship, or two, on the JP. It's usually
a cruiser class I specifically design for JP defense, full of 5 second ROF weapons, for the purpose of pounding
the crap out of attackers while their sensors are scrambled from the jump. If it works on NPRs in the same
way it works on us, you can get a lot of free shots before their sensors can unscramble enough to respond.
Since most ships don't jump with shields on, you can do real damage before they raise them, and if your
ships are heavily armoured, when the attackers DO recover, they can't do the same to you, at least, not easily.

Eric

[mavikfelna]

Having the maintenance modules (contained in ships) in system still requires minerals and maintenance supplies be brought in, but it also means you can overhaul ships locally and keep your reserve directly in the system without accruing time on their clocks.
You need some ships with maintenance modules and some with maintenance storage bays and a freighter with the minerals. Park them at a convenient asteroid, create a colony on that asteroid and boom, instant maintenance base.

--Mav

[Yonder]

For an outpost that is going to need to be more permanent you may want to consider bringing in some Planetary Observatories.

It may be a good idea to put the observatories on another, nearby body though. An enemy in the system will rapidly spot all of the ships in orbit over the maintenance facility and head there. The mobile maintenance bases can run, and a freighter can grab all the minerals and follow pretty fast. The Observatories would likely take too long to load (depending on your cargo handling abilities, so in event of an attack you'd be likely to lose them. However if they were on another body it's possible that the enemy would ignore or not notice their tiny thermal signature in comparison to all of your other contacts in the area.

[Arwyn (OP)]

I agree with most of the observations. The stretch for me right now is that I lack mobile maintenance bays and asteroid mining modules. So, it was trying to find a way to address maintenance outside of using those items till I get the research in. Doesn't help that I lack a scientist with that specialization.  

The challenge is running into an active multi-system hostile so early. I have run into hostile NPR's a jump or two away before, but managed to win the naval engagement, then invade their homeworlds and acquire maintenance facilities that way. This situation is much more like the WWII island hopping campaign. I know the NPR empire stretches out further than I have explored, and I don't have a method to drop instant forward bases like I did in previous games where I had more developed tech and infrastructure.

So far, the lesson for the future start up games is to start looking at some picket fleets with larger maintenance parts on board, but that's really only a stop gap. Stopping the overhaul clock is really the kicker, since it keeps the fleets "in service" longer by eliminating the frequent overhauls required right now.

I have run ships for quite some time by just refilling spares, and then discovered the nasty tendency for ships that have run that long without overhaul to spontaneously explode.

As far as the actual system defense, in previous games after taking the system I usually mine and drop sensor buoys on all the warp points, then move a mobile force in system with fleet support. If its expected to be a really hot system, I usually have a dedicated jump point defense squadron that's beam armed and armored to the teeth sitting on the jump point. In key systems, they get backed up with heavy beam defense bases backed up with missile and fighter bases staggered out away from the jump point. I have found a couple of squadrons of gauss armed fighter squadrons on CAP right on the point makes a big difference on the initial incursion.

I also had good luck in a previous game setting up long range/long endurance FAC tenders with a squadron or two of FAC's as forward fire breaks to bloody up enemy ships transiting into contested systems.

[Peter Rhodan]

if you intend to hold the system just set up a colony on the most habitable planet and ship people and Maintenance Facilities in - what I normally do... if there is no habitable planet that is different.

[voknaar]

If I don't manually assign my research for many of the modules at the start of a game I make it one of the priorties to get them established. That way I can set up frontier refueling and refitting stations. Dumping fuel and ammo on a body close to the JP you want to cover might be a good idea as well - then you can be certain colliers are safe stockpiling at a fall back position. Until manned operations can permanently be setup that's about the best you can do in the mean time. As a stop gap until you've got the logistics researched you could make large fuel/supply ships and keep them in system.

[Steven Kodaly]

Fuel and ammo isn't an issue, maintenance on the other hand, is an issue.  I am rotating squadrons in and out of the system, but its getting rather expensive in terms of parts and repairs to keep them there.

If you can continue to hold the system, then denying it to your opponent is almost certainly worth the expense.   If maintaining the status quo while you perform vital research is completely impractical, then you only have two options:

A) Retreat

B) Advance

If you retreat, then your opponent gets to make use of this system; given that the NPR is already a multistellar and appears to have more advanced technology, this could be very bad for you; alternatively, if the NPR sinks resources into building up the system, those are resources not being poured into hulls - in the short term.

If you advance and explore, looking for the NPR's capital, then maintenance remains a problem, and the forces used to find that yet-to-be located system will not be in position to cover your recent acquisition.   On the other hand, if you do find the enemy capital and muster enough forces, you may be able to gut a more advanced NPR, which should simplify your security arrangements considerably.

So, how far are you willing to push your luck?

[voknaar]

In another thread I have come accross the perfect solution to OP's dilemma. Mobile Fleet repair ships. The downside is hangar bays & boat bays make them military vessels themselves. But with Commercial Maintanance Modual ships, asteroid miners and sorium harvesters in system you have everything needed for a perminant fleet base.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,2900.0.html

[jRides]

In your situation, assuming there are no assets on the planets you absolutely must defend, I would pull back to the nearest base and leave the fleet there, picket the systems jump point with one or more sensor equipped ships, small enough with a decent sized passive radar they can sit far enough away to hopefully avoid detection, then shadow the any aggressor until your fleet can arrive from where it is sitting (with 0 time on their clocks). If you can colonise one of the planets so much the better, do that and get enough populace and maintenance depots in place to sit your fleet there for a speedier response - and get that archaeological dig going.

I generally prioritise maintenance fleets right alongside the battle fleets. There will be enough maintenance vessels to cover the largest ship size of the fleets that will be using it and these maintenance fleets will have their own supply flotillas (usually really large yet slow and unarmoured Fleet Supply Vessels, distinct from smaller/faster/armoured Replenishment Vessels that travel with the fleets). This solves a lot of logistics problems for the battle fleets, their replenishment vessels (colliers,tanker and supply ships) only have to travel back to the maintenance facilities for resupply, and the fleet itself will have a forward area to overhaul/repair/resupply.The new addition of MFRDs make forward repair areas even more viable so your precious maintenance vessels can sit three or four systems back from your front lines.

In my own time in the game I have acquired a healthy respect for the necessities of maintenance and the whole logistics of keeping fleets supplied, and so maintenance vessels and support are usually well in service before i start to push out from the immediate systems around sol.

[Thiosk]

I had kinda wondered what to do with maintenance ships.  I'm currently transporting facilities out from the core to sit at my more distant worlds, where i'd like to park the fleets.  Since I'm massively underutilizing my shipyards, perhaps its time to crank out a few big maintenance ships.