Shield Warship

[Xanithas (OP)]

Good evening all,

I am moving steady along in my game and have decided to try out shields on some of my warships and thought I should come here and see if I can get some feedback. I have never used them before and am honestly not really sure how exactly they work other then they restore after taking damage, charge to full power after being activated slowly and are less space efficient then their equal weight in armor. I decided to take the shell of a proven warship (my 10K destroyer) and throw some shields on it. Additionally this is honestly the farthest along I have ever gotten in aurora before (most of the time I run our of minerals before now or get dominated by a spoiler NPR) so I have never had engines at this tech level before so my assumption about max fleet speed is based on ~40% max tonnage dedicated to engines and fuel but I feel like I am a little slow here (for reference my previous generation was using Internal Confinement Fusion was at 10km/s, moving to Solid Core Anti Matter I feel I should be faster but this is where the math seemed to point was a happy medium)

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Bellerophon class Destroyer      10,000 tons       299 Crew       3,592.3 BP       TCS 200    TH 3,000    EM 1,620
15000 km/s      Armour 4-41       Shields 54-216       HTK 98      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 7      PPV 50.67
Maint Life 3.29 Years     MSP 1,743    AFR 107%    IFR 1.5%    1YR 243    5YR 3,651    Max Repair 500.00 MSP
Magazine 5   
Commander    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Morale Check Required   

Babcock Interstellar Frigate Class Mk III SCAM HS 25 P1.25 EP1000.00 (3)    Power 3000.0    Fuel Use 33.15%    Signature 1000.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 763,000 Litres    Range 41.4 billion km (31 days at full power)
Tokamak Deflectors Small Ship Xi Band Military Grade Deflector Generator (3)     Recharge Time 216 seconds (0.2 per second)

Kratos Defence 25.0cm FXR Naval Grade Laser (1)    Range 480,000km     TS: 15,000 km/s     Power 16-8     RM 80,000 km    ROF 10       
Kratos Defence 15.0cm FXR Naval Grade Laser (4)    Range 480,000km     TS: 15,000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 80,000 km    ROF 5       
Quad Thales Nederland "Goal Keeper" GCIWS Turret (4x24)    Range 40,000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Kratos Defence "Nova" Fixed Naval Laser BFC Mk IV (1)     Max Range: 480,000 km   TS: 10,000 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
Thales Nederland "Goal Keeper" GCIWS BFC (1)     Max Range: 60,000 km   TS: 32,000 km/s     83 67 50 33 17 0 0 0 0 0
General Electric SCAM P10 (1)     Total Power Output 10    Exp 5%
General Electric SCAM P25 (1)     Total Power Output 25.9    Exp 5%

Sparton Bouy Launcher (1)     Missile Size: 5    Hangar Reload 111 minutes    MF Reload 18 hours
Sparton Bouy Deployment Computer (1)     Range 9.1m km    Resolution 1

Compact ECCM-2 (1)         This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes 

Feedback is appreciated as always. I am particularly interested in your thoughts on the shield to armor radio and the speed however if you feel I have royally gooned something up I am happy to address it.

[Nori]

15k is pretty fast, though you really gotta design based on your enemy. If they are going 20k then a beam ship is going to have a tough time closing, but if they go 10k you should be good. If they are 5k you could probably slow it down a bit.

4 armor is not a lot. Even with 54 shields. I'd try for at least 6, but naturally it's up to you and the enemy you face.
Why did you match the tracking speed of your lasers to your FCS?
I'd add a ECM personally. It takes time to close in a beam ship so any help is good.

That's all I got for now.

[Xanithas (OP)]

15k is pretty fast, though you really gotta design based on your enemy. If they are going 20k then a beam ship is going to have a tough time closing, but if they go 10k you should be good. If they are 5k you could probably slow it down a bit.

I agree about the speed bit but I am in a bit of a weird spot, I am facing Star Swarm ships who still have a speed advantage on me even with this new ship (they make about 18000km/s) but the average NPR is about 8k so I was already faster then them a generation ago. My thought was this will give me a smaller delta V mismatch so if they are in range I can hold them there slightly longer.

4 armor is not a lot. Even with 54 shields. I'd try for at least 6, but naturally it's up to you and the enemy you face.

Ironically the older model has 6 layers and I stripped them down because I thought the shield would offset. I can try for that but that seems like a lot to me. with that said does that mean my 6 layers on the previous generation was woefully inadequate (which scares me because they handled damage fairly well so clearly I was lucky in that case) or do I need a LOT of shields to make the equivalent of 1 layer of armor.

Why did you match the tracking speed of your lasers to your FCS?

Because I am a big dummy and forgot I am using a older model FCS for my previous generation ships (fleet speed 10k) and didn't upgrade it. Saved me a refit there....

I'd add a ECM personally. It takes time to close in a beam ship so any help is good.

I will probably swap out the ECCM for the ECM given how crammed this bad boy is (it had both before but I pulled the ECM out because I figured my accuracy and range being max was better then the range and accuracy penalty the enemy receives which sounds silly saying it aloud), but if the overwhelming feedback is I am going to fast I will for sure have room there.

[nuclearslurpee]

I have never used them before and am honestly not really sure how exactly they work other then they restore after taking damage, charge to full power after being activated slowly and are less space efficient then their equal weight in armor.

A quick primer:

• Shield strength is equal to the strength tech times the size of the shield times the square root of the size divided by 10, where the size is given in HS. This means that shield strength scales as HS^(3/2) and a larger shield is nearly always better than two smaller shields of the same total size.
• Shield regeneration is the regen tech times the size of the shield (in HS), and gives the total shield strength that will regenerate in 300 seconds. This means that shield regeneration is directly proportional to size, and two shields of the same total size will regenerate the same total power as one shield of that size. There is a misconception by some people that smaller shields regenerate faster; this is objectively untrue - although larger shields take longer to reach full strength (since they are stronger per HS), the regeneration rate is the same.
• Shields are highly effective against high-penetration weapons like spinal lasers and particle lances, since they absorb the full damage and nothing will get through to the internals if there is still shield strength remaining. Conversely, they are somewhat less effective (but still good) against low-penetration weapons like railguns and missiles. Meson cannons ignore shields entirely.
• Shields at a sufficiently high tech level are almost strictly superior to armor (unless facing mesons). This is because while shields have less raw strength than armor per HS, shields must be fully eroded before internal damage could be dealt, while armor only needs to be partially eroded before a ship starts taking heavy internal damage. The rule of thumb here is that a ship with about 50% armor damage is effectively exposed to internal damage - so once shields reach 50% of the strength per HS that armor has, they become equally or more effective. This happens starting at Epislon tech with the maximum size (25+). Endgame shields are about 75% as strong as armor per HS, which makes them effectively superior in nearly all cases.

The most important takeaway here if you are a total noob is that you should always use the biggest shield generator available at your tech level. As a general rule, your total shield strength should be at least the same as one armor layer's width, and if you cannot accomplish this in a tonnage-efficient manner it is probably too early in the tech tree for shields to be truly effective. In practice, the break point is usually Gamma or Delta shields depending on the overall ship design and fleet doctrine.

so my assumption about max fleet speed is based on ~40% max tonnage dedicated to engines and fuel but I feel like I am a little slow here (for reference my previous generation was using Internal Confinement Fusion was at 10km/s, moving to Solid Core Anti Matter I feel I should be faster but this is where the math seemed to point was a happy medium)

This is a reasonable assumption and you're probably fine, especially given the diverse threats you currently face. Your bog-standard NPRs at this point are probably still using fusion drives  as NPRs are not very good at teching up like a player is, so I wouldn't worry too much about standardizing against their fleet speeds.

Feedback is appreciated as always. I am particularly interested in your thoughts on the shield to armor radio and the speed however if you feel I have royally gooned something up I am happy to address it.

Per above, I'd say your big issue is that you are using far too small generators. If you are at Xi tech level even with bas size-10 generators you should be getting 50 strength per 10 HS. I am seeing 18 strength per generator which means they are a measly size 5 HS and only 36 strength per 10 HS. You are leaving a lot on the table, and frankly at Xi tech level you should be able to make shields of size 40 HS which will have a hefty 400 strength per generator or 100 per 10 HS, how can you say no to this?

A proper shield generator(s) will take up a lot of space, there is no way around this, so you do have to be prepared to commit to shields, which probably means sacrifices in other areas such as weapons loadout. Small ships can struggle to make the best use of shields as the largest sizes (40 HS ==  2000 tons!) may not be practical, although on the flip side with 400 points of shields who needs armor anyways? 

[Nori]

snip

Ah good point. I missed the 3 by the shields. Totally agree, in this size ship you are far better off doing one large shield. I could see doing 2 shields for redundancy on a larger ship however.

[Xanithas (OP)]

Thank both of you for the consistent great feedback, I have tried a different approach taking onboard what you guys said

In a slight departure from the prior class of DD I swapped the armament for all 20cm lasers as they will allow for me to dish out more punishment then I was able to before for slightly less weight, less power and less mounts. Additionally I consolidated the shield generator into one much larger generator (and upgraded it to keep up with current tech developments in my empire) in addition to dedicating more overall weight to the generator as was suggested. This gives me significantly more shields then I had prior and as a result I stripped most of the armor off leaving just a spare layer to catch any small instances of damage as the ships disengages should the shield fail. Finally I added a ECM and swapped the BFC for one that matches the ships new higher speed and stripped the buoy deployment system as honestly I should just build a specialist ship for this function (my thought was to guard jump points when I am blockading a system but hauling that dead weight for a very special occasion seems silly on second thought).  I feel this might be just about right given the feedback you gave me but again I would appreciate any critiques.

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Bellerophon class Destroyer      10,000 tons       304 Crew       3,576 BP       TCS 200    TH 3,000    EM 7,110
15000 km/s      Armour 2-41       Shields 237-568       HTK 91      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 8      PPV 40.44
Maint Life 3.73 Years     MSP 2,174    AFR 94%    IFR 1.3%    1YR 244    5YR 3,655    Max Repair 500.00 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Morale Check Required   

Babcock Interstellar Frigate Class Mk III SCAM HS 25 P1.25 EP1000.00 (3)    Power 3000.0    Fuel Use 33.15%    Signature 1000.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 778,000 Litres    Range 42.2 billion km (32 days at full power)
Tokamak Deflectors Omicron Band Naval Grade Deflector (1)     Recharge Time 568 seconds (0.4 per second)

Kratos Defence 20cm FXR Naval Grade Laser (4)    Range 480,000km     TS: 15,000 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 80,000 km    ROF 10       
Quad Thales Nederland "Goal Keeper" GCIWS Turret (3x24)    Range 40,000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Thales Nederland "Goal Keeper" GCIWS BFC (1)     Max Range: 60,000 km   TS: 32,000 km/s     83 67 50 33 17 0 0 0 0 0
NUBURU "Vanguard" Fixed Naval Laser Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 480,000 km   TS: 15,000 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
General Electric SCAM P20 (1)     Total Power Output 20.1    Exp 5%

Compact ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 30

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes

[TheTalkingMeowth]

Only 1 fire control and no passive OR active sensors make me very nervous.

Only having 1 fire control is probably ok on a shield warship since shields will block microwaves and you can't take lucky internal hits until the shields are down, at which point you are dead anyway.

But not having sensors means the ship cannot operate in isolation, ever. That reduces your fleet flexibility and means that if your sensor ship dies first by sheer luck, your entire battle fleet is useless.

The deployment time seems long, I rarely bother with more than 6 months, but if you expect to picket jump points with this ship it's fine.

You may want to reevaluate the maintenance supply. I assume the 500MSP repair is the engines, which means you don't have enough MSP to repair all three engines if they get destroyed in battle. I would either increase the maintenance supply to allow a full engine rebuild, or accept the ship won't be able to do so and reduce the MSP (maybe add a few more engineering spaces) to save money (3.73 year life is much longer than the deployment and you can just overhaul while the ship is on shore leave).

[nuclearslurpee]

The deployment time seems long, I rarely bother with more than 6 months, but if you expect to picket jump points with this ship it's fine.

I usually go for 12 months as a standard. It's not a huge increase over 6 months since the crew quarters requirement scales with the cube root of deployment time, and that way most of my ships can hold position at a jump point or new colony as needed.

You may want to reevaluate the maintenance supply. I assume the 500MSP repair is the engines, which means you don't have enough MSP to repair all three engines if they get destroyed in battle. I would either increase the maintenance supply to allow a full engine rebuild, or accept the ship won't be able to do so and reduce the MSP (maybe add a few more engineering spaces) to save money (3.73 year life is much longer than the deployment and you can just overhaul while the ship is on shore leave).

Until 2.2, I think it is excessive to try and have enough MSP to do full repairs. Keep in mind a component damaged in combat is 2x the cost in MSP to repair, so you would need 3000 MSP to repair three engines, which is a lot to carry in a mere 10,000-ton ship. I usually don't worry too much about ability to repair battle damage, ideally you can fix one engine so you can limp home after a battle but my experience is that most ships that lose engines are destroyed anyways, and even if not they lose enough engineering spaces and maintenance storage bays that a lot of their MSP is blown up anyways.

Now, with 2.2 and the changes to damage control it makes more sense to carry extra MSP although it is still a decision with opportunity costs and not a no-brainer.

[Xanithas (OP)]

Only 1 fire control and no passive OR active sensors make me very nervous.

Only having 1 fire control is probably ok on a shield warship since shields will block microwaves and you can't take lucky internal hits until the shields are down, at which point you are dead anyway.

But not having sensors means the ship cannot operate in isolation, ever. That reduces your fleet flexibility and means that if your sensor ship dies first by sheer luck, your entire battle fleet is useless.

A fair point, this ship however never will ever operate alone. They travel in groups of 5 along with a jump ship and that's the smallest unit I will ever consider deploying them in.

The deployment time seems long, I rarely bother with more than 6 months, but if you expect to picket jump points with this ship it's fine.

This line makes me curious, I honestly considered 18 months quite short. On average with the speed I have it takes about 45 days to reach the outer limits of my empire one way, approx 50 to reach a destination worth deploying a fleet to. With that said if i had a 6 months deployment period I would only have a month on station before they had to leave again with another fleet having to leave less then a month after the first one left to ensure a relief was available on station. Is my galaxy just large of do you tow around entertainment modules to prevent this ludicrous turnaround?

You may want to reevaluate the maintenance supply. I assume the 500MSP repair is the engines, which means you don't have enough MSP to repair all three engines if they get destroyed in battle. I would either increase the maintenance supply to allow a full engine rebuild, or accept the ship won't be able to do so and reduce the MSP (maybe add a few more engineering spaces) to save money (3.73 year life is much longer than the deployment and you can just overhaul while the ship is on shore leave).

My thought here is less about a full engine repair and more about a combination of ensuring the MSP Is available should I get unlucky as the maintenance clock ticks up and I lose engines multiple times (the more common issue) or I am in sustained combat and once again get unlucky and have multiple maintenance failures.

[nakorkren]

@Xanithas Consider that the smallest active sensor (5t) would provide you adequate range for any beam combat. Is your ship design so optimized you can't squeeze in 5t? If so, which ship in your group of 5 carries the active sensor? Are you willing for your entire battle group to be unable to shoot back if that ship gets knocked out?

[nuclearslurpee]

@Xanithas Consider that the smallest active sensor (5t) would provide you adequate range for any beam combat. Is your ship design so optimized you can't squeeze in 5t? If so, which ship in your group of 5 carries the active sensor? Are you willing for your entire battle group to be unable to shoot back if that ship gets knocked out?

This is important, as a matter of fact the NPRs know the game mechanics and will preferentially target ships with sensors (or the bigger sensors, when presented with options) to try and kill your ability to fight back. Personally, I always put size-1 active, EM, and thermal sensors on all of my warships (and usually commercial ships too, at least the passives) so that I am never without minimal capabilities. This way, you always have the option to deploy just 1-2 warships for, e.g., colony garrison duties (an important need in 2.0+ with the new spoiler race!).

Having a doctrine that says you will always deploy X ships in Y grouping is nice, but a robust fleet doctrine is able to handle unexpected circumstances by having some flexibility built in - for the same reason, I will usually put at least token PD on all ships even if they are not primarily escort classes, or try to make sure each PD or missile ship has a token beam weapon so they can contribute in an unexpected close-range encounter.

[Xanithas (OP)]

Noted. I have added a 5T sensor to the ship. I am assuming based on the feedback on the lack of sensor and the long deployment time I favor it seems I have the shields and armor set up correctly so I will place a group of these ships in production. Thanks for the help everyone.

[Garfunkel]

There are 2 camps when it comes to deployment time:

Camp 1 thinks that all, or at least most, ships must be able to operate through long deployments of picketing JPs and colonies. Thus all their ships have long deployment times.

Camp 2 thinks that most warships spend the majority of their time at a fleet base and only sojourn out on expeditions against a known enemy in a nearby system and thus there is no point in putting in long deployments (and similarly, no need for big fuel tanks or magazines as supply ships take care of those needs).

There is no right or wrong answer because, like so many things in Aurora, it all depends on a bunch of different things. Picketing is an important thing to do but it's generally not something you might need every ship class to be able to do. For a great example, Steve himself constantly uses ships to picket various places but he often builds specific classes to do that work when it becomes clear that the need is long-term and not just for few months/years. So yeah, go whichever style you prefer.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I would agree that deployment time should always be about what you expect a specific class of ships to need. How likely is it to operate away from a colony or recreation facility in order to do their specific missions. My military ships generally have a deployment ranging from 15 days up to about 18 months for some ships and can land anywhere in between. I would say that most common for my capital warships is 6-9 months. It should be rare for missions to last much more than that without having access to an anchor point of some sort. Time between overhauls is perhaps more important for longer deployments in my opinion and for that ships generally have maintenance windows of 2-3 years.

For me... picketing JP is only a short term fix for a long term problem. Wasting too many resources picketing JP long term is generally not a good solution. Any JP can eventually be breached anyway given enough time and resources as the attacker can chose the time and force to do so after probing the defences.

Same thing goes for ship range, speeds and all other considerations regarding an entire fleet. I have never found that using unified speed and range for different ship classes to make that much sense. Instead it depends on the ships role in the fleet and overall doctrine. I tend to rely quite heavily on specialized sensor crafts in picket formation in order to make my ships stay out of detection until I assessed the enemy strength and positions as one example, but all ships need to have some backup sensor system as every ship need to in some form or another be able to act on their own at times.

Speed is a rather touchy subject, but unless you run a pure beam war fleet then speed can often be a huge sink in resources which can be better spent elsewhere for more moderately fast ships for the specific technology level. It also has to be based on need as much as anything else in a fleet doctrine.

[Rince Wind]

Also remember you can stay on station until the deployment time runs out. It doesn't matter if they get a bit grumpy on the way home if it is through secure territory. Overhaul usually takes longer than R&R anyway.