Conventional War in Sol (dead)

[Garfunkel (OP)]

This will not be a full AAR, more like a test game. Inspired by the TL-0 ship designs that xenoscepter posted in the Bureau of Ship Design, I decided to see what a conventional tech war in Sol would look like while we all wait for C# Aurora.

Quick backstory:

The Atlantic Federation and the Pacific Alliance are super-states, having absorbed every country in the world. The two hyper-powers are now locked in a Cold War of epic proportions, with hundreds of divisions and thousands of nuclear missiles ready to fly. Luckily for humanity, the discovery of Trans-Newtonian minerals and theory has provided an outlet for the two powers and, in a moment of sanity, their leadership agreed that any conflict on Earth would mean the total extinction of the human race. But in space, all bets are off - sort of.

Harkening back to the complicated gentleman rules of duelling from the 18th and 19th centuries, the Federation (FED) and the Alliance (ALL) have agreed to refrain, in all circumstances, from attacking each other on Earth or in Earth orbit, creating a tiny safe haven in the solar system. Everywhere else, it's the rule of the jungle and survival of the fittest.

Thus, instead of peaceful and commercial exploitation of space, military forces in space became the highest priority. Both sides are repurposing ICBMs (size 24 missile) and TBMs (size 10 missiles) for use by combat vessels in space, vessels using conventional engines and armour, guided by repurposed ICBM fire-controls and the most basic TN active sensors (sensitivity 10).

Since then, it has been 5 years of research and build-up. Due to extensive espionage and satellite surveillance, the Alliance and the Federation have largely mirrored each other's progress. First combat ships are about to be launched from their first shipyard.

[Garfunkel (OP)]

First ship designs:

Atlantic Federation

Code: [Select]

Tribal class Missile Cruiser    6 900 tons     213 Crew     417.2 BP      TCS 138  TH 10  EM 0
72 km/s     Armour 1-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 48
Maint Life 0.92 Years     MSP 76    AFR 190%    IFR 2.6%    1YR 83    5YR 1243    Max Repair 96 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 48   

10 EP Conventional Engine (1)    Power 10    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 10    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 100 000 Litres    Range 5.2 billion km   (833 days at full power)

Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 720
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 24 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 4.1d    Range: 70.9m km   WH: 20    Size: 24    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Victory class Frigate    3 900 tons     104 Crew     252 BP      TCS 78  TH 6  EM 0
76 km/s     Armour 1-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 20
Maint Life 1.24 Years     MSP 40    AFR 121%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 27    5YR 406    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 20   

1 EP Conventional Engine (6)    Power 1    Fuel Use 95%    Signature 1    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres    Range 2.4 billion km   (365 days at full power)

Size 10 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 300
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 10 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 8.2d    Range: 141.8m km   WH: 6    Size: 10    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Pacific Alliance

Code: [Select]

Essex class Armoured Cruiser    6 950 tons     218 Crew     422.4 BP      TCS 139  TH 10  EM 0
71 km/s     Armour 1-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 48
Maint Life 1.5 Years     MSP 114    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 57    5YR 856    Max Repair 96 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 48   

10 EP Conventional Engine (1)    Power 10    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 10    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres    Range 3.1 billion km   (500 days at full power)

Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 720
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 24 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 4.1d    Range: 70.9m km   WH: 20    Size: 24    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Lexington class Missile Destroyer    3 950 tons     104 Crew     255.2 BP      TCS 79  TH 6  EM 0
75 km/s     Armour 1-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 20
Maint Life 1.23 Years     MSP 40    AFR 124%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 27    5YR 410    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 20   

1 EP Conventional Engine (6)    Power 1    Fuel Use 95%    Signature 1    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres    Range 2.8 billion km   (438 days at full power)

Size 10 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 300
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 10 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 8.2d    Range: 141.8m km   WH: 6    Size: 10    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The ships are almost identical since there isn't much available to them and size is a real concern what with shipyard sizes.

[Garfunkel (OP)]

Thanks to better scientists and a better administrator, the Pacific Alliance pulls ahead in ship production. By the end of 2030, the PAN has 3 Essex class armoured cruisers and 1 Lexington class missile frigate, while the Atlantic Federation Navy has only a single Tribal class missile cruiser.

Due to an oversight in planning, the PAN is unable to provide sufficient maintenance for their ships. Production priorities are quickly changed to compensate and as more facilities come online, all ships will undergo an overhaul. Several failures of the missile launchers and engines are suffered but fixed thanks to maintenance supplies. This information is soon picked up by AFN intelligence and their leadership plans to take advantage of the maintenance issues in a desperate bid to overcome the numerical superiority of PAN. The AFN only waits for the third Tribal CG to be built. At the same time, Alliance scientists discover Duranium armour and PAN designers make improvements to both Essex and Lexington, increasing their armour thanks to the lighter weight of Duranium compared to conventional materials.

Code: [Select]

Essex B class Armoured Cruiser    6 750 tons     218 Crew     453.5 BP      TCS 135  TH 10  EM 0
74 km/s     Armour 2-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 48
Maint Life 1.67 Years     MSP 126    AFR 121%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 54    5YR 807    Max Repair 96 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 48   

10 EP Conventional Engine (1)    Power 10    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 10    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres    Range 3.2 billion km   (500 days at full power)

Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 720
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 24 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 4.1d    Range: 70.9m km   WH: 20    Size: 24    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Lexington B class Missile Destroyer    3 800 tons     104 Crew     276.5 BP      TCS 76  TH 6  EM 0
78 km/s     Armour 2-21     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 20
Maint Life 1.39 Years     MSP 45    AFR 115%    IFR 1.6%    1YR 25    5YR 380    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 20   

1 EP Conventional Engine (6)    Power 1    Fuel Use 95%    Signature 1    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres    Range 3.0 billion km   (438 days at full power)

Size 10 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 300
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 10 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 8.2d    Range: 141.8m km   WH: 6    Size: 10    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

These revised versions are not yet under construction as both Alliance shipyards are busy building the originals.

On 11 January 2032, AFN receives its third Tribal CG. Immediately a Moon Force TG is formed and ordered to head to Luna, forcing the PAN to either yield it to the Federation or to rise to the challenge, despite the maintenance clocks of their ships running high.

PAN does not immediately react. One of the Lexington's is being refitted to the B model, so the PAN leadership decides to wait few days for another Essex CA to be constructed, planning to overwhelm the AFN with numbers. On 16 January 2032, PAN orders its Combat Group - consisting of 6 Essex CA and 2 Lexington DDG - to sally forth and wipe out the AFN presence on Luna.

Active sensors flare to life!

PAN view of the situation at 16 Jan 2032 - 02:30


Minutes tick by as nervous people grip their consoles on both sides.

AFN view of the situation at 16 Jan 2032 - 02:48


Only few seconds later the myopic fire-controls repurposed from old ICBM silos of both sides acquire their targets. All ships are ordered to fire at will. Each Tribal targets one Essex, whereas two Essex's target each Tribal, and the Lexingtons pick Tribal 001 and Tribal 002 as their targets. The launchers work as hoped and 22 missiles leap into action. This one Alpha Strike is also the only one, as there is currently no known technology to reload missile launchers in space. Magazines are still on the drawing board.

At 200 km/s, the missiles are much faster than the ships, yet space is big and it will take some time for them to reach their targets. The PAN Combat Group keeps moving ahead to ensure that the enemy Tribals remain targeted by the extremely limited fire-controls. The AFN Moon Force commander realizes that their force can head deeper into space and thus ensure that his missiles hit first. This will reduce the closing speed of enemy missiles from 200 km/s to 128 km/s. Of course, the Moon Force has no method of actually spotting the incoming missiles but they are certain that PAN ships would have launched at the same time as AFN did.

At 02:50 the PAN Combat Group commander realizes that AFN vessels are moving away from Luna. Orders are immediately given to chasing the Tribals. Despite the navigators complying instantly, it is now certain that AFN missiles, if they were launched at the same time as PAN did, would hit first. Crews are ordered to brace themselves.

PAN view of the situation at 16 Jan 2032 - 02:51

It must be the automatically built-in minimal passive sensors in the PAN ships that detect the incoming missiles - these ICBMs have huge conventional engines.


The results are disappointing for AFN - only two enemy ships are streaming atmosphere. Meanwhile, the PAN is jubilant - they lost only two missiles due to a destroyed fire-control on Essex 006. That ship is ordered to turn back to Earth for repairs while the rest of the Combat Group will chase the AFN ships to exact revenge.

It only takes 3 more minutes despite the AFN running their engines as hot as possible. Out of 16 missiles, 7 miss and 9 hit. Tribal 001 is destroyed and Tribal 002 is badly damaged, its sensor going offline and the ship streams atmosphere from three different locations. PAN commander is not entirely satisfied. AFN commander is happy he made it to the lifeboat alive with 57 other survivors.

Both sides must return to Earth for repairs and reloads. Analysts on both sides pour over recordings of the battle and interview the commanders and crew. The incredible survivability of the large engines of the cruisers saved the damaged ships from complete destruction. The ability of the ships to narrowly dodge missiles at the last moment is equally remarkable - it is clear that missiles need to be even faster and more agile to hit the enemy reliably.

[Garfunkel (OP)]

In the aftermath of the Battle of the Moon, both sides return to Earth orbit to lick their wounds. Both fleets begin to repair, refit and reconstruct as well as construct more missiles.

Atlantic Federation decides to pursue magazines and faster launcher reloads as well as high-density duranium armour. AFN goal is a task group of missile combatants that can stand the initial volley of the enemy and keep launching missiles instead of having to return to Earth to rearm. AFN also wants a proper MFC instead of a jury-rigged ICBM fire control, so that missiles can be launched from a greater distance.

Pacific Alliance pursues high-density duranium armour as well but is happy with their current missile armament. Instead, the PAN goal is to create a beam combatant that finish off the enemy after an alpha strike while the missile ships return to Earth to rearm. PAN also wants improved missiles with a higher chance to hit.

AFN introduces the Victory 2 frigate and the Tribal 2 missile cruiser while PAN rolls out the Essex B armoured cruiser and the Lexington B guided-missile destroyer.

In June 2034, Pacific Alliance Navy introduces the Essex C type:

Code: [Select]

Essex C class Armoured Cruiser    6 950 tons     218 Crew     487.2 BP      TCS 139  TH 10  EM 0
71 km/s     Armour 3-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 48
Maint Life 1.67 Years     MSP 131    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 56    5YR 843    Max Repair 96 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 48   

10 EP Conventional Engine (1)    Power 10    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 10    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres    Range 3.1 billion km   (500 days at full power)

Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 720
ICBM Launch Control (1)     Range 50k km    Resolution 50
Size 24 Anti-ship Missile (2)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 4.1d    Range: 70.9m km   WH: 20    Size: 24    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

It uses High-Density Duranium armour which allowed designers to increase the thickness of its shell from two layers to three without sacrificing much speed, going from 74 km/s to 71 km/s.

Pacific Alliance launches their third shipyard in July 2034. This one will dedicate itself to constructing the future Beam Combatant which will be armed with 15cm Carronades.

Meanwhile, the Atlantic Federation Navy unveils its new and improved missile ships:

Code: [Select]

Tribal 3 class Missile Cruiser    6 150 tons     219 Crew     439 BP      TCS 123  TH 10  EM 0
81 km/s     Armour 1-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 48
Maint Life 1.07 Years     MSP 89    AFR 151%    IFR 2.1%    1YR 78    5YR 1163    Max Repair 120 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 153   

10 EP Conventional Engine (1)    Power 10    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 10    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 100 000 Litres    Range 5.8 billion km   (833 days at full power)

Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 360
Missile Fire Control FC7-R100 (1)     Range 7.5m km    Resolution 100
Size 24 Anti-ship Missile (6)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 4.1d    Range: 70.9m km   WH: 20    Size: 24    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Victory 3 class Frigate    3 200 tons     106 Crew     240.2 BP      TCS 64  TH 6  EM 0
93 km/s     Armour 1-19     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 20
Maint Life 1.95 Years     MSP 47    AFR 81%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 16    5YR 243    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 65   

1 EP Conventional Engine (6)    Power 1    Fuel Use 95%    Signature 1    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres    Range 2.9 billion km   (365 days at full power)

Size 10 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 150
Missile Fire Control FC7-R100 (1)     Range 7.5m km    Resolution 100
Size 10 Anti-ship Missile (6)  Speed: 200 km/s   End: 8.2d    Range: 141.8m km   WH: 6    Size: 10    TH: 0/0/0

Active Search Sensor MR1-R10 (1)     GPS 100     Range 1.6m km    Resolution 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

For both ships, the designers realized that armour was useless against the power of warheads that their enemy would utilize. So both ships had their armour stripped down to a basic shell. Instead, they enjoyed faster reload for their respective launcher - now twice as fast, as well as the introduction of magazines, allowing both ship types to fire three times before needing to reload.  Once shipyard expansion finished, AFN would refit all ships to these new designs.

Pacific Alliance completes research into Improved versions of its Size 24 and Size 10 anti-ship missiles. The new versions have less fuel and more agility, which should increase their chances of actually hitting targets.

Thus comes 2034 to an end.

Atlantic Federation Navy:
7x Tribal 2 cruisers
7x Victory 2 frigates

Pacific Alliance Navy:
13x Essex B cruisers
14x Lexington B destroyers

[Michael Sandy]

I would think that in the 1000 Research point era, that is conventional engines but maybe tier 1 weapons, the first ship with a beam fire control and weapons range greater than 10k can fire in Area defense mode.  With a closure rate of 150 km/s, those missiles are in the envelope for 60+ seconds.  That is a minimum of 4 shots in area defense mode.

10k ranged railguns can't engage in area defense mode, fortunately.  But in nuclear thermal tech, they would still be very effective versus missiles.

The problem of having an extended conventional or conventional+ period is that if you have comparable investments in shipyards and research labs, you of necessity leave conventional era very fast.  By very fast I mean, faster than a retool cycle+production cycle.

I suppose you could extend it by arbitrarily reducing everybody's research rate.  If labs produce 25% as much research points, then a balance between research and production means you can have more ships and more production while tech advances more slowly than a retool+production cycle.

[Father Tim]

(With one hundred-ish million pop, an empire receives only five research facilities.  Splitting them across five different projects can produce completion dates two-three years in the future, even for the best scientists.

And with a conventional start, there are many under-5001 RP basic technologies needed simply to function.  An empire that chooses not to focus on military tech can go decades with truly crap ships -- especially if it 'overlooks' how useful more powerful engines will be.)

[Jorgen_CAB]

I think it is also reasonable to think that you have rules in place for any game how many labs any faction are allowed to stack on each project in addition to everything else. As stacking labs in just one field are quite unrealistic in normal terms that is what I do in all my campaigns at least.

My rule is basically that no faction can stack more one lab per 10 administration points at the first level of research expansion tech. In addition to that all labs are earmarked in the respective field and only about 10% of labs can switch field every year within a faction. For every level of the general tech level more labs can be added to each individual project, so you may stack more labs as the cost of tech increase. This system usually means that tech progression remains roughly the same throughout a campaign and that you will spend enough time on each level so that you are forced to develop technologies and tactics accordingly.

You can't rush technology in the same way, you can still focus technology but not to the same degree.

The skill and administration level of your scientist will in many way dominate how good you will be in a certain field at any given time while resources can effect it but there is more of a hard limit on your capacity outside the number of labs you can provide even early on.

I have similar rules in place for industrial production so long term planning is a thing, if any faction which wants to quickly switch industrial production between targets there is a price to pay by forcing to leave portion of their factory production idle for a good while.

I had a funny scenario in one of my games a few years back where one highly trade focused faction only focused on general tech advancement, factory and other production technology which meant they did never leak any background technology to anyone else (at least rarely) and they had many trading relationships with most factions. They also tended to buy most racial technologies or ship components from other factions as well. This faction was the richest and wealthiest of all factions without having to use its military might more than a handful of times... they supplied their other factions war with minerals and fuel, it was a true business. They almost always managed to get others to fight their battles as well...   

[Garfunkel (OP)]

There have been no updates since I sort of ran out ideas and the game was progressing to TL-1 in all fields anyway. So when one of my SSDs died and took Aurora with it, it was no massive loss.

I'll redo this in C# eventually as the increased granularity with engines and armour as well as the increased capabilities of Conventional start mean that there are lot more possibilities to test out - like Conventional fighters with box launchers for example.

[StarshipCactus]

There have been no updates since I sort of ran out ideas and the game was progressing to TL-1 in all fields anyway.  So when one of my SSDs died and took Aurora with it, it was no massive loss.

I'll redo this in C# eventually as the increased granularity with engines and armour as well as the increased capabilities of Conventional start mean that there are lot more possibilities to test out - like Conventional fighters with box launchers for example.

Did you ever wind up restarting this in C#?

[Garfunkel (OP)]

Not yet.

I'm waiting for 1.12 to be released before porting my campaign to that. After that campaign is over, I'll probably revisit this idea. So don't hold your breath