Author Topic: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93  (Read 8246 times)

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Offline Polestar (OP)

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A review and critique of ground forces in Aurora v1.93

Having played several games involving armies and ground combat, it's worth sharing some thoughts about both how ground forces currently work in Aurora (as of version 1.93) and to consider what adjustments might profitably be made. I apologize in advance for any errors below; I'm confident that you'll find at least a few! Places where I know my knowledge is especially weak are marked with [check this].

Designing and fielding ground forces in Aurora tickles all my grognard bits and I'm not the only player to feel this way. I love the control now on tap, the generally excellent balance now served out, and the extreme customization now made possible. It's just great.

There, are, however, some parts of the new system that I will suggest are imperfect and consider ways to improve upon. Note for newbies: This is not a guide to ground forces, but (as indicated) a review and critique.

General:
Ground forces are built in the Economics interface and managed in the Ground Forces interface. This is a bit of a disconnect.
Proposal: Move production to the Ground forces interface, Order of Battle tab. If this is done, perhaps show factories on the left side and show current production on the right side when a specific formation element is not selected.

Ground forces do not automatically upgrade. Once built, they slowly become obsolescent. Given the time required to set up elements, research elements, and set up formations, I agree with other players in proposing that this is the single biggest issue with ground forces at present.
Proposal: Ground forces should automatically upgrade over time.

Relatedly, non-STO ground force maintenance is very low compared to fighters or STO units. Proposal: Maintenance for non-STO ground forces should be multiplied by between three and five.

The Unit Class tab:
Unit elements are designed here. For the most part, I believe the choices on hand to be quite well balanced, agreeing with others who have analyzed this previously. That said, there are some over-all winners and losers. We start off by noting that formation survivability and battle-winning power depends on the inclusion of elements with at least one of the following advantages: Large numbers, high dodge or fortification, heavy armour, high hitpoints, and/or suitability for battlefield conditions. This extensive list enables a great many types of elements to strut their stuff. Each can outperform against an enemy without enough suitable weapons, and each can be mown down by a foe tailored to defeat them.

My comments here:
1. Infantry genetic enhancement is more costly compared to its benefits than are most other options (fielding more men, up-armouring, using a different unit type). Space marines, however, might well consider getting cuddly with the geneticists.
2. Adding armour to infantry can be a major win. The bugbears of infantry are machine guns and bombardment and both are effectively hindered by armour. Adding HPs to infantry is comparatively less valuable except in shipboard combat.
3. The most efficient threat to armoured infantry ought to be autocannon. But this is not the case, and we here repeat a point previously made by others: autocannon are weak. Why are they weak? Their mix of penetration and damage is a imperfect match for most element types, they are a bit too big, and they are a bit too costly.
4. Heavy AA is disproportionately effective for its cost compared to medium AA, which in turn is more cost-effective than is light AA. Why? The combination of much greater anti-fighter damage and greater area of influence. I suggest that the former needs to change quite a bit in order to balance things out.
5. Bombardment is a bit of a mixed bag. It's not very lethal to most units for its size or cost, and what it kills effectively most other weapons also can kill just fine also, but bombardment does have the advantage of being able to fight from supporting and rear-echelon positions. I'll put in a case for Heavy (and long-range) Bombardment being most cost-effective in this category, because the combination of higher stats plus the ability to hit rear-echelon units is quite powerful.


Other comments on the unit class design tab:
1. It is not obvious that units may be given more than one special Capability. This is done by shift-clicking; this, while a Windows-standard action, is unusual for Aurora, in which most interfaces do not recognize multiple selections. Relatedly, I submit that capabilities increase cost too much when combined. Perhaps add the multipliers rather than cumulatively multiplying them?
2. More philosophically, I propose that many of the special Capabilities ought to be allowed as retraining and re-equipping options for existing units as well. Once we field our lovely space marines / legions of doom / fluffy ninja kitties, we ought to be able to prepare them for new glorious conquests / dreadful defeats instead of having to build new every time.
3. The four values shown on the top of the window, starting with Racial Armour Strength, should a) not be coloured like a user-editable value, and b) should indicate what technologies affect them.
4. Researching all of the desired unit elements for a full-fleshed army can get tedious, even the first time this has to be done. Consider the balance of gameplay value versus player time: How about we drop the unit element research requirement and make up the difference by raising the cost of high-end unit and weapon types and of capabilities?
5. As discovered by other players, it is not obvious how to adjust Headquarters Capability. Why? The dialog to do this is not close enough to the choice of  Headquarters as a Component Type. Perhaps the Headquarters component type might, when selected, pop down a sub-option displaying Capability and enabling it to be modified?

Supplies:
We comment on supplies here, because here is where we first notice that there are (as described in the game design notes) two kinds of supply: Infantry-type and Light Vehicle type. The first is half the price, but can only supply within a formation. The second can supply any formation in its hierarchy. This distinction makes some sort of sense logically, but I'm not seeing it actually adding enough to gameplay to make up for the complexity. What I do in my own armies is a) include infantry-type supplies in every combat formation, b) add additional infantry-type supplies in independent rear-echelon formations, and c) transfer from these to thr fighting formations as they run short. This saves expense, saves on command span, and - most importantly - makes sure I keep tabs on supply availability.

I would prefer it if the game:
a) at least made mobile supplies less costly compared to infantry supplies and ideally removed the distinction altogether,
b) had units use their own supplies by preference, auto-replenishing from other sources if available,
c) allowed this to happen from any mobile supply on the battlefield, with hierarchy acting only as a preference, and most importantly,
d) showed rounds (or days) of supply remaining in the Order of Battle view.


The Fighter Design window:
We jump to fighter design here in order to discuss them in comparison to ground units. Briefly, I don't think fighters are good enough for the price. Why?
1. They are (very) expensive compared to ground units mounting equivalent anti-surface weaponry. Bombardment kills for less. AA guns are much less expensive and heavy AA does serious damage. Heavy bombardment hits everything fighters can.
2. The mix of penetration and damage provided by fighter pods is a non-ideal match for most ground units, although any lightly-armoured superheavy vehicles will suffer.

This said, if fighter speed is sufficiently effective against AA, that could change things substantially. At present, I lack any information on this point. [check this]


The Formations Templates tab:
Here is where Unit Classes form Elements within ground force Formations. A Formation is comprised of Elements, each consisting of a number of units of a defined Class.

We, as players, will have some sort of notion of the sort of army we want. The interface for making formations isn't terribly taxing (with a few caveats - see below). What we aren't really provided with by the game is a sense of how large to make Formations, and how to organize them.

Formation size is important. Transports carry a certain size of unit. Headquarters allow Commanders effective control up to a certain total formation size. Perhaps most importantly, and least well understood, is how formation size impacts battles. If I understand both the game design notes and my own battlefield experience correctly - and there's a "if" there - then, in every combat round, a formation may only attack up to one other formation (plus one more in the case of a breakthrough). This means at least two things: Firstly, a large formation can "overkill" a sufficiently smaller one, wasting shots. Secondly, the overrun rules massively favour large formations. Not only do they win the one-on-one fights the game uses, but a huge formation can break through the hole a routed tiny one leaves in the line.
I propose that both are unrealistic and unnecessary "gotchas" in game design. How about we try out the following changes?
1. A formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up. Any formation may be attacked by any number of formations in this way, but both large and small formations get to use all of their eligible shots exactly once, and therefore have equal effectiveness.
2. Overrun occurrence is calculated entirely based on defending formation integrity and cohesion. The choice of formation to conduct the overrun is made based on the number of kills it made on the beaten defender. If this formation is less than two-thirds the size of the defender (possible in the event of greatly mis-matched formation sizes), then pick additional attacking formations, in descending order of the kills they made, until the defender's size is matched. If the formation is larger than the defender, then it may only overrun if it passes a check against defender size / attacker size. Why? You can't squeeze a Soviet Tank Army through a space of a single battalion - you need to clear a bigger gap than that.


How to organize formations?
Every army has a hierarchy. Armies command corps command divisions and so forth. Aurora clearly want us to set up a hierarchical arrangement, in which formations command other formations ... and, equally clearly, desires this to happen only within close limits. Let's list the arguments Aurora makes, pro and con:

In favour of hierarchy, Aurora:
1. allows formations to command other formations without obvious limits on nesting,
2. provides ground commanders with a variety of ground command ratings,
3. lets commanders of superior formations share their skills with subordinate formations, and
4. has a supply distributions system that works only within a hierarchy, and
5. lets you load a whole hierarchy at once into a transport (happy !)
Other arguments pro may occur to you.

Against hierarchy (or, at least, against deeply-nested hierarchy):
1. HQs get expensive (and large) when asked to command a sufficiently large unit size. This is multiplied if you want any redundancy or armour, and it's terribly easy to kill a single unarmoured HQ. Worse, Aurora [check this!] requires a sufficiently large HQ *at every level of the hierarchy*. If you have a corps of 330,000 commanding divisions of 100,000 commanding brigades of 30,000, then all of these need HQs with (at least) that command size in order for commanders to avoid penalties. This means, if you have one corps commanding three divisions commanding nine brigades, you have to supply a total of 330k + 3*100k + 9*30k = 900k worth of HQ capacity. Multiplied by any redundancy, this - to repeat ourselves - gets expensive. [again, check this]
2. Commanders only share 1/4th of their skills with units in any immediately subordinate formation. I do not know what happens to deeply nested formations; do subordinates of subordinate formations also get the 1/4th bonus? Aurora poses you with a difficult and - so I propose - unfair choice: Do you take that hit, or do you lump their whole command into one formation and risk "overkill" against possibly much smaller enemy formations? How do you make that choice when you have no idea how large a prospective enemy might be making their formations?
3. Commander command capacity bears no relation to their rank. Make a big HQ, and the game - reasonably - will set the commander rank higher. But do you have a commander of that rank, with sufficient capacity, and with sufficient skills to make it worth your while to find and appoint them? The game, in short, features commanders who want you to give them an (ideally, unified) formation tailored to them personally, rather than your idea of a well-organized army.

I am about to make some proposals. I will assume that Aurora actually DOES want nested hierarchies (or, at least, that it does not want to penalize them) and that evidence to the contrary should generate requests for reform. So here goes:

1. HQs in nested hierarchies need to be a lot cheaper. I don't have a clean way to accomplish this. One possible solution is to allow for two command values: capacity, and subordinate capacity. The first allows directly attached elements to be effectively commanded. The second allows command of any subordinate elements, however nested. The second is 1/10th the price of the first.
2. Ground leaders should be delivering more to their subordinate formations. We could adopt the powerful navy admin system, in which a fraction of the bonus is multiplied at every level, as long as superior ranks command inferior at every level. That would *strongly* encourage nesting!
3. Leader command capacity should be a function of rank. I'd go so far as to say that it should ONLY be a function of rank. Now, if this is done, then the game will become much more explicit about the recommended sizes of formations than it currently is. I favour this, especially given how combat works, but not all players will appreciate the loss of customizability. An ambitious proposal is to allow the player to specify the command size for each rank. If the player chooses a much higher size then normal, drop the maximum leader bonuses a bit. If much smaller, nudge the maximums up a notch or two.


This monograph is getting a bit long. I apologize. But it's good to have the whole system critiqued as a whole system, so let's wrap it up and head for...

The Order of Battle tab:

Here is where we organize and review the formations we build. In general, this interface looks good and works well, but I do have some (mostly minor) requests:
1a. Light bombardment should not require a supported formation in order to fire in battle. A bombardment element without an assigned supported formation should perhaps fire in support of the weakest or a random front-line formation in combat, with formations within the same hierarchy being preferred, but not required.
1b. I have not figured out how to un-assign a support relationship.
2. As with the Naval Organization listing of fleets, there is more information I would be glad if this interface showed for each formation. Lack of supply and command limit exceeded are the biggies here.
3. It would be great if there were a way for formations to be automatically brought up to strength, based on an existing formation template, by drawing units from a specified formation. In other words, I'm requesting replacement battalions.
4. At present, each formation has to have a Field Position manually set. It would be great if this were set for each formation template, leaving only adjustments for particular circumstances to be made later.
5. Planets should show their terrain, climate, temperature, and pressure, if not normal.


... And this completes this review. I'm sure I've left a bunch out, but this missive taps me out for now. I look forward to reading the on-going discussion of ground forces and combat, of which this is just a small part.
 
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Offline Pedroig

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2020, 06:58:33 AM »
Some thoughts, assume general agreeance with OP except as noted/clarified below:

1.  STO upkeep should be more expensive than other ground unit upkeep.  They are afterall on the ship formula, not the ground unit formula, they don't interact with ground forces in any way except HQ capacity.  Making ground units more expensive is not a solution, mainly because the problem doesn't exist really, apples versus oranges.

2.  Commander required rank and HQ size is directly related and thus far uneditable.  This should be pointed out more clearly.  This ties in with Commander Bonuses, they should apply 100% up to the rank HQ rating including all sub-formations, dropping off to 25% for sub-formations if the sub-unit HQ is destroyed or ALL units if HQ capacity is exceeded.  (This allows one to have an Armour Division commander containing Mechanized Infantry Brigades/Battalions/Companies.

3.  More on HQ:  In the Right Hand Pane there should be the current selections levels with required rank, so 5000 - Major (or whatever the lowest rank designator is, though I believe the DB sees it as the highest which is off since I do not know of any country whose rank structure works downwards i.e. an O-1 is always a lower rank than an O-2, etc.).  IIRC this would give SIX levels of DB to select and then have a green text to give a custom number, but it would correlate to the listed rank structure.  (This way one can simply select a "default" size or to save space/BP/upkeep a custom number lower than one given for the same rank)

4.  Light Bombardment does not require to be supporting an unit, it merely requires being in a Support position on the field.

5.  Ground units upgrading over time should be a checkbox if implemented.  Upkeep should be reduced for non-upgraded units (upkeep modifier=built tech level/current tech level)

6.  COPY/PASTE or Text Import is direly needed.  Both for formation creation, but even more so for OOB.  So tedious to make identical/modular multi-tiered formations every single time.  An additional feature would be to be able to "set" said formation on the OOB screen and then whatever is set in there is what the selection list for the ground facilities to build, and it would build it top-down.  So if one selected a division it would build the division HQ, all supporting elements, all brigades, battalions, companies, platoons, squads, and fireteams in that template.  ALL ground facilities on the planet would work on the order and the entire thing spit out at once would be the compromise.  So if there is no "real rush" once can simply build the entire thing with no manual assembly required.  However, if time/materials/wealth/need is short, then once could simply select any of the sub-formations and that would be the "top level" built, with the same caveats.
si vis pacem, para bellum
 
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Offline skoormit

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2020, 08:13:44 AM »
Tremendous analysis and critique.
As a player who has been happily playing in space, more than a little afraid to wade into the intricacies of GU design and use, thank you very, very much for taking the time to write your ideas so clearly.

I have just a couple minor observations.

Quote
Proposal: Move production to the Ground forces interface, Order of Battle tab.

I'm not keen on moving GU production out of the economics window, because then it would be the only production effort not available in the econ window.
However, maybe it would be useful to add some information in the GF interface about current production and available production capacity at each colony.
Then you wouldn't have to switch windows to see what you had queued up, which I suspect is mainly what you are after.

Quote
I propose that...an [overruning] formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up.

Would smaller formations then have any relative advantage over larger formations? Wouldn't this greatly incentivize us to always make the largest feasible formations?
What if we restate is like this: each time a formation overruns another in a round, some portion of its remaining shots are "wasted", and it gets to use the rest against a new target.
The precise size of the "wasted" portion is a question of balance.
At present, the size is effectively 100% of remaining shots. You are proposing it be changed to 0%.
Perhaps there is a satisfying answer somewhere between the two?
Maybe it should vary by the size imbalance between attacker and defender; an enormous attacker overrunning a tiny defender probably wastes more shots than an attacker overrunning a slightly smaller defender.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2020, 09:48:24 AM »
Ground forces do not automatically upgrade. Once built, they slowly become obsolescent. Given the time required to set up elements, research elements, and set up formations, I agree with other players in proposing that this is the single biggest issue with ground forces at present.
Proposal: Ground forces should automatically upgrade over time.

No they shouldn't.  While I am all in agreement that a button to 'copy this unit / formation template but with the newest, best tech' would be a wonderful thing to have, I am strongly opposed to ground troops magically getting better equipment.  New gear should cost time & money & minerals.  A 'rebuild this unit with the latest tech while keeping its experience' option for GFTFs would be great, but it still needs to cost.

Relatedly, non-STO ground force maintenance is very low compared to fighters or STO units. Proposal: Maintenance for non-STO ground forces should be multiplied by between three and five.

No.  Aircraft and STO weapons should be far more maintenance-intensive than guys with guns in linen uniforms.

1. Infantry genetic enhancement is more costly compared to its benefits than are most other options (fielding more men, up-armouring, using a different unit type). Space marines, however, might well consider getting cuddly with the geneticists.

Yes, because only infantry can carry out boarding comabt, and the vast majority of ships are not going to have their own troops for repelling boarders.  Genetic Enhancement is priced based on its effectiveness for such situations.

4. Researching all of the desired unit elements for a full-fleshed army can get tedious, even the first time this has to be done. Consider the balance of gameplay value versus player time: How about we drop the unit element research requirement and make up the difference by raising the cost of high-end unit and weapon types and of capabilities?

No.  Component research has always been a big part of Aurora, and removing or 'dumbing' it down harms the game's identity.

What I do in my own armies is a) include infantry-type supplies in every combat formation, b) add additional infantry-type supplies in independent rear-echelon formations, and c) transfer from these to thr fighting formations as they run short. This saves expense, saves on command span, and - most importantly - makes sure I keep tabs on supply availability.

I would prefer it if the game:
a) at least made mobile supplies less costly compared to infantry supplies and ideally removed the distinction altogether,
b) had units use their own supplies by preference, auto-replenishing from other sources if available,
c) allowed this to happen from any mobile supply on the battlefield, with hierarchy acting only as a preference, and most importantly,
d) showed rounds (or days) of supply remaining in the Order of Battle view.

Aurora is not interested in preventing you from cheating at solitaire.  If you consider it right and reasonable for your 'Supply formations' to get anywhere in the front lines in the six (eight?) hours of one ground combat round, that is fine.  "I don't use this rule so it should be removed for everyone," however, is not.

a)  No.  The distinction is important and flavourful.
b)  It is not clear to me that this is not how it works currently.
c)  No.  Supply units increase the size (and therefore the 'target profile') of their formation, and also benefit greatly from the "Avoid Combat" setting.  The trade-off for this efficiency (LVH-LOG) and 'reach' of supply.
d)  Yes, briiliant!  A very welcome change if this were to happen.

We jump to fighter design here in order to discuss them in comparison to ground units. Briefly, I don't think fighters are good enough for the price.

That's fine.  Plasma Carronades are a waste of resources too --  it is not necessary (or even desirable) that everything in the game is perfectly balanced against everything else.

1. A formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up. Any formation may be attacked by any number of formations in this way, but both large and small formations get to use all of their eligible shots exactly once, and therefore have equal effectiveness.

So if my indigenous guerilla infantry are spread around the world in penny-packets and tiny garrisons one giant tank formation can somehow machine-gun them all in an afternoon?  No.

I haven't seen the breakthrough mechanic in action enough yet to know how I feel about it, but it certainly sounds like you're suggesting we punish the empire that makes the smaller formations.

<A whole bunch more stuff>

A lot of your QoL suggestions are thing we can reasonably expect to be in the many upcoming QoL / convenience patches.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 09:53:52 AM by Father Tim »
 
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Offline Eretzu

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2020, 01:56:14 PM »
I am still novice and have played with ground units only little. I still would like to throw this out here: Is "Ground Combat Command" stat necessary as a mechanic?

With ships the idea is that low rank commanders command ships while higher ranked ones provide bonuses to many ships through naval admins. There is no stat for how many ships a naval admin commander (or fleet commander) can give bonus to and I feel it is good as such. It simplifies the game as you can rely on the idea that two commanders of same rank can do exactly same things (with different bonuses ofc).
 

Offline Polestar (OP)

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2020, 07:35:42 PM »
Some thoughts, assume general agreeance with OP except as noted/clarified below:

1.  STO upkeep should be more expensive than other ground unit upkeep.  They are afterall on the ship formula, not the ground unit formula, they don't interact with ground forces in any way except HQ capacity.  Making ground units more expensive is not a solution, mainly because the problem doesn't exist really, apples versus oranges.
Good point re. apples and oranges.
That said, I argue for an increase in ground unit cost and maintenance for the following reasons:
1. It is currently extremely low in absolute terms.
2. Fighters need to be more cost-effective compared to ground units, and just making fighters cheaper would open up a new can of worms.
3. I also propose that fielded units auto-upgrade - although I agree with you that this should be optional - and this should come with a price tag.

Quote
2.  Commander required rank and HQ size is directly related and thus far uneditable.  This should be pointed out more clearly.  This ties in with Commander Bonuses, they should apply 100% up to the rank HQ rating including all sub-formations, dropping off to 25% for sub-formations if the sub-unit HQ is destroyed or ALL units if HQ capacity is exceeded.  (This allows one to have an Armour Division commander containing Mechanized Infantry Brigades/Battalions/Companies.
I could roll with this. Consider, however, a deeply-nested force: Are you certain we want to allow leaders to provide their whole bonuses to all subordinate formations? If we set up, say, corps commanding divisions, commanding brigades, commanding battalions, bonuses would add up substantially! A game with this ruleset would effectively require deep hierarchical nesting, and should be clear that this is the design intent.


Quote
4.  Light Bombardment does not require to be supporting an unit, it merely requires being in a Support position on the field.
Sadly, I discovered that, in battle, my light bombardment formation in a Support position did not fire unless I explicitly assigned a formation for it to support. Note that this was in v1.8 (I think), so I'm not posting a bug report until I see this happen in the then-current version.

Quote
5.  Ground units upgrading over time should be a checkbox if implemented.  Upkeep should be reduced for non-upgraded units (upkeep modifier=built tech level/current tech level)
Options are good. I'll argue for upgrading being the default option because, so I propose, we don't want to play a game where our garrisons and armies wither unless we take special actions. We should explicitly state that we accept that this will happen, in exchange for saving the upgrading expense.

Quote
6.  COPY/PASTE or Text Import is direly needed.  Both for formation creation, but even more so for OOB.  So tedious to make identical/modular multi-tiered formations every single time.
I like this. Setting up formations and hierarchies can indeed get tedious and aids along these lines would be much appreciated.



Tremendous analysis and critique.
As a player who has been happily playing in space, more than a little afraid to wade into the intricacies of GU design and use, thank you very, very much for taking the time to write your ideas so clearly.

I have just a couple minor observations.

Quote
Proposal: Move production to the Ground forces interface, Order of Battle tab.

I'm not keen on moving GU production out of the economics window, because then it would be the only production effort not available in the econ window.
However, maybe it would be useful to add some information in the GF interface about current production and available production capacity at each colony.
Then you wouldn't have to switch windows to see what you had queued up, which I suspect is mainly what you are after.
I can roll with this. Anything that reduces the informational split-up is good.

Quote
Quote
I propose that...an [overruning] formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up.

Would smaller formations then have any relative advantage over larger formations? Wouldn't this greatly incentivize us to always make the largest feasible formations?
What if we restate is like this: each time a formation overruns another in a round, some portion of its remaining shots are "wasted", and it gets to use the rest against a new target.
The precise size of the "wasted" portion is a question of balance.
At present, the size is effectively 100% of remaining shots. You are proposing it be changed to 0%.
Perhaps there is a satisfying answer somewhere between the two?
Maybe it should vary by the size imbalance between attacker and defender; an enormous attacker overrunning a tiny defender probably wastes more shots than an attacker overrunning a slightly smaller defender.
The text you quote was not entirely clear that it referred to formations BEFORE the overrun phase is calculated. The next section (just below the quoted text covers formations during the overrun phase. To repeat: In the quote here, remove "[overruning]".
In both cases, however, the request is the same: For shots to never be wasted due to formation size mismatches, and for formations of whatever size to get all eligible shots against formations of whatever size, as long as any legal targets remain.




Ground forces do not automatically upgrade. Once built, they slowly become obsolescent. Given the time required to set up elements, research elements, and set up formations, I agree with other players in proposing that this is the single biggest issue with ground forces at present.
Proposal: Ground forces should automatically upgrade over time.

No they shouldn't.  While I am all in agreement that a button to 'copy this unit / formation template but with the newest, best tech' would be a wonderful thing to have, I am strongly opposed to ground troops magically getting better equipment.  New gear should cost time & money & minerals.  A 'rebuild this unit with the latest tech while keeping its experience' option for GFTFs would be great, but it still needs to cost.
On several of the points under discussion here, it may happen that the two of us may simply have to "agree to disagree".
That said, there may be some misunderstandings at work that can be cleared up, and there may be some useful things to consider about what the game design seems to want, but not be quite achieving.

On the first point:
It is nowhere suggested in this thread, by any person posting thus far, that unit upgrades ought to happen either for free or instantaneously. The opening post, indeed, explicitly requests an increase in cost.

On the second point:
The new combat system in Aurora, as much as any such system I've seen in a 4X space game, wants to let you build and field highly customizable units. These take a fair bit of thought to design, and a time also to make, research, build, organize, and command. The unusual power Aurora provides, and the unusual amount of effort it requires, combine to cause us, the players, to really get attached to the formations we field. We sweated over them!

The game then trips over its own magnificant design in the following ways:
1. The formations we grow attached to become obsolete as technology advances. Training, medals, battle honors - all become worthless because soldiers can't get new plasguns.
2. The effort we place into design, research, organization? It has to be repeated every time technology advances sufficiently. It was a lot of work the first time, thank you very much!
3. Formations cannot be retrained and reequipped for new challenges.
4. Losses in battle have to be manually replaced, a very time-consuming process. If you, like me, have an interest in Tables of Equipment and Organization, or just want to keep our forces effective, we either have to spend a lot of time click-dragging elements and typing in numbers. Or replace from stratch.


Quote
1. Infantry genetic enhancement is more costly compared to its benefits than are most other options (fielding more men, up-armouring, using a different unit type). Space marines, however, might well consider getting cuddly with the geneticists.

Yes, because only infantry can carry out boarding comabt, and the vast majority of ships are not going to have their own troops for repelling boarders.  Genetic Enhancement is priced based on its effectiveness for such situations.
Permit me to condense a few of the points made in the initial post and apply them directly to the cost-effectiveness of genetic enhancement versus other options.

Genetic enhancement multiplies HPs. Adding armour multiplies armour. The former is more expensive than the latter. For this higher cost, we ordinarily expect a higher return. The problem with this is that HPs are less valuable against more weapons than is armour. Bombardment and fighter pods both do more Damage than they have Penetration. On the other side of the ledger (more Pen than Dam), the game only provides autocannon, and autocannon are relatively large and expensive.

Now, consider a fight on board a ship. We and the enemy only have infantry. We have the option to add genetic mods. They, however,  have the option to mix in light bombardment infantry (more Dam than Pen).

Hence the comments in the OP: If we pay more, we should not be getting less.


Quote
1. A formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up. Any formation may be attacked by any number of formations in this way, but both large and small formations get to use all of their eligible shots exactly once, and therefore have equal effectiveness.

So if my indigenous guerilla infantry are spread around the world in penny-packets and tiny garrisons one giant tank formation can somehow machine-gun them all in an afternoon?  No.

I haven't seen the breakthrough mechanic in action enough yet to know how I feel about it, but it certainly sounds like you're suggesting we punish the empire that makes the smaller formations.
There is a misunderstanding working here. The request being made here is for the size of said hypothetical tank formation to neither add nor deduct effective shots. If the tank unit has a small size and you have several of them, or whether you've combined the same number of units into one formation, needs to matter a lot less than it does now. That's the problem under discussion here.

To review the request made re. this point (with some edits and highlighting):
There are two requests being made here. Firstly, that all units get to use all (or the same proportion of) eligible shots, regardless of size relative to the enemy's formations. Secondly, that the overrun rules not favor formations that are particuarly large or small compared to the enemy.
Quote from: OP
1. During the main battle phase, a formation with remaining shots attacks other formations, repeating the same selection randomization as previously, until its shots are used up. Any formation may be attacked by any number of formations in this way, but both large and small formations get to use all of their eligible shots exactly once, and therefore have equal effectiveness.
2. Overrun occurrence is calculated entirely based on defending formation integrity and cohesion. The choice of formation to conduct the overrun is made based on the number of kills it made on the beaten defender. If this formation is less than two-thirds the size of the defender (possible in the event of greatly mis-matched formation sizes), then pick additional attacking formations, in descending order of the kills they made, until the defender's size is matched. If the formation is larger than the defender, then it may only overrun if it passes a check against defender size / attacker size. Why? You can't squeeze a Soviet Tank Army through a space of a single battalion - you need to clear a bigger gap than that.
 
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2020, 08:01:13 PM »
It would be nice if there was something for ground units like the 'use components' and refit options for ships. 

I propose a new status for ground units - retraining and reconstitution.  Ground units could only be placed in this state when at a colony with a ground force construction complex and could not be moved afterwards.  New formations trained at that complex would then use up the R&R units but reducing the cost and carrying over some percentage of hard earned experience.

This would retain the flavor of ad-hoc and underweight field formations during wartime but give some needed relief from the tedium of reconstituting units as well as allowing a form of unit upgrading. 

Hope this helps
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2020, 12:48:11 AM »
Ground forces do not automatically upgrade.

Ships do not automatically upgrade.

On the first point:
It is nowhere suggested in this thread, by any person posting thus far, that unit upgrades ought to happen either for free or instantaneously. The opening post, indeed, explicitly requests an increase in cost.

Your use of the word "automatically" suggested to me that they should be free, instantaneous, or both.

3. Formations cannot be retrained and reequipped for new challenges.

Yes, a system to upgrade existing units with new (higher-tech) equipment would be nice.  It is also, as I understand it, already on "the list" so we might see it by September.

I am less sure about adding new capabilities (for example, Jungle training) to an existing unit, but I am confident that if Steve chooses to do so he'll find a reasonable cost-benefit formula.

4. Losses in battle have to be manually replaced, a very time-consuming process. If you, like me, have an interest in Tables of Equipment and Organization, or just want to keep our forces effective, we either have to spend a lot of time click-dragging elements and typing in numbers. Or replace from stratch.

Which is 'realistic' (as much as I hate that justification) and -- to me -- perfectly reasonable.  The 'perfect' battalion might have 600 men, but in combat no formation has ever managed to stay perfectly aligned to its TO&E.  Casualties happen, and replacements are irregular and not always availble.

If you "want to keep forces effective" then combine them into ad-hoc task forces under the available command.  Otherwise, the "Rebuild to Template" button that is also "on the List" (for September? maybe?) will see to your needs.

Permit me to condense a few of the points made in the initial post and apply them directly to the cost-effectiveness of genetic enhancement versus other options.
. . .
Hence the comments in the OP: If we pay more, we should not be getting less.

Sure we should.  Again, see Plasma Carronades.  Some technologies are simply better than others and that's fine.  If we use the perfect formula to exactly balance the expected survivability of +1 (HP or armour) to the cost of said increase, we have largely removed the difference between HP and armour.

Aurora is not a game about paying the exact right amount for everything.

There is a misunderstanding working here. The request being made here is for the size of said hypothetical tank formation to neither add nor deduct effective shots. . .

There are two requests being made here:

Firstly, that all units get to use all (or the same proportion of) eligible shots, regardless of size relative to the enemy's formations.

Secondly, that the overrun rules not favor formations that are particuarly large or small compared to the enemy.

In other words, you want it to not matter whether one builds a super battleship with forty lasers, or four heavy cruisers each with ten lasers.  I think 'size of formation' is an important design decision with real consequences.


- - - - -

In summary, yes there are many UI and QoL improvements that could be made to the interface to make design, creation, upkeep and upgrade of ground units easier.  Some of which have already been 'promised' for future releases.

But it is far too early to start advocating for significant (or even, in most cases, insignificant) changes to ground combat mechanics.
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2020, 01:16:54 AM »
Ground forces do not automatically upgrade.

Ships do not automatically upgrade.

On the first point:
It is nowhere suggested in this thread, by any person posting thus far, that unit upgrades ought to happen either for free or instantaneously. The opening post, indeed, explicitly requests an increase in cost.

Your use of the word "automatically" suggested to me that they should be free, instantaneous, or both.

Units receive updated equipment automatically in Hearts of Iron IV. This is neither free nor instant. What it does do is save the player a huge amount of tedious, pointless micromanagement.

That sort of system is what I, as well as several others would like to see in some form.
 
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Offline serger

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2020, 02:36:03 AM »
Now, consider a fight on board a ship. We and the enemy only have infantry. We have the option to add genetic mods. They, however,  have the option to mix in light bombardment infantry (more Dam than Pen).

Are bombardment elements can be used during board combat?

Steve Walmsley:
"This is very similar in principle to ground combat, albeit without support artillery, aircraft, etc. and with no concept of front-live vs rear."

 

Offline Scorchicus

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2020, 03:51:53 AM »
On fighters: There are 2 efficient pod sizes at present: Size 14 autocannons, and size 96 AA.

The autocannons have a great (2ap, 2dam, 3 shot) spread, and while they're more expensive than mounting equivalent damage on a ground unit, they're also mostly untargetable.  Great at killing infantry and light vehicles, especially since those unit types can't mount heavy AA.

The size 96 AA pod kills Ultra-Heavies at a rate of 1/round at equal tech.  This is far better than any other option, making them one of the best defensive units at present.  Mix them with entrenched Heavy Static HCAP/HAV and lots of infantry, and you have a really tough nut to crack.

This makes fighters really, really specialised.  Either they strafe the hell out of light units, or blow up the heaviest units in the game.  They have absolutely no place fighting Static/Medium/Heavy/Super-Heavy vehicles because you can't make an efficient damage spread.  On that note, the bombardment pod is almost useless.  The pen is too bad to be usable against medium and up, and the autocannon wipes the floor with it in light ground attack.

However, I do think that AA is very powerful at present.  Once weapon tech goes up a little, AA does absolutely silly amounts of damage to fighters, and while they might miss, this is a non-issue for MAA/HAA, which can be effectively massed.  There should be an option for fighters to take an efficiency hit to avoid enemy AA elements if possible, with the penalty increasing depending on how muich AA the enemy has, just like how they currently have flak suppression to fight AA directly.  On that note, MAA/HAA mounted on static/medium/heavy/super-heavy has no counter, since fighters can't mount weapons to efficiently kill them.
 

Offline Polestar (OP)

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2020, 07:18:07 PM »
I am still novice and have played with ground units only little. I still would like to throw this out here: Is "Ground Combat Command" stat necessary as a mechanic?

With ships the idea is that low rank commanders command ships while higher ranked ones provide bonuses to many ships through naval admins. There is no stat for how many ships a naval admin commander (or fleet commander) can give bonus to and I feel it is good as such. It simplifies the game as you can rely on the idea that two commanders of same rank can do exactly same things (with different bonuses ofc).
I am certainly open to that simplification. I wasn't too keen on my proposal (above), anyway.

Yeah, I think sometimes you just need to cut out the crap and let the overall design - which, IMHO, is great - shine without the distraction.


It would be nice if there was something for ground units like the 'use components' and refit options for ships. 

I propose a new status for ground units - retraining and reconstitution.  Ground units could only be placed in this state when at a colony with a ground force construction complex and could not be moved afterwards.  New formations trained at that complex would then use up the R&R units but reducing the cost and carrying over some percentage of hard earned experience.

This would retain the flavor of ad-hoc and underweight field formations during wartime but give some needed relief from the tedium of reconstituting units as well as allowing a form of unit upgrading. 

Hope this helps
I agree with most of this. I had to think a little, and get over an initial worry about micromanaging all those units shuttling between battlefields and refit sites, but I'm cool with the big-picture idea.

I would propose one change though: Let units be hauled back to Ground Force Construction Complexes (GFCCs) and be placed in refit, as suggested. However, perhaps instead have these units use up one GFCC per formation, take time and cost to refit, and come out with the TOE given in their formation template(s)? Rather than building a new unit. I also propose that adding and subtracting most special Capabilities (genetic enhancement being an exception) also be possible through this mechanic.


Now, consider a fight on board a ship. We and the enemy only have infantry. We have the option to add genetic mods. They, however,  have the option to mix in light bombardment infantry (more Dam than Pen).

Are bombardment elements can be used during board combat?

Steve Walmsley:
"This is very similar in principle to ground combat, albeit without support artillery, aircraft, etc. and with no concept of front-live vs rear."
Yeah, might be a good call there. I was working off Steve's "infantry only" statement. But I haven't gotten around to testing this. First one of us who gets the chance, please share the results!

 
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Offline Vasious

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 03:33:35 AM »
I'd be happy with

1) Being able to have Train entire formations

So if I have set up

Division A
  • Combat Brigade A
    Battalion A
    Battalion B
    Battalion C
    Combat Brigade B
    Battalion D
    Battalion E
    Battalion F
    Combat Brigade C
    Battalion G
    Battalion H
    Battalion I
    Support Regiment X
    Battalion X
    Battalion Y
    Battalion Z

I can go to Ground Forces Construction and select a Copy Division A with a check box to include all sub elements

And build a whole new division in one order rather than 17 separate ones.

2) A Refit with updated Equipment order would be capital, especially with a check box to include all sub elements


I do agree with Father Tim than many small elements could represent spread out forces that cannot be attacked by overflow of shots by one Mega Element, possible as guerrillas which bog down regular forces longer than paper numbers would suggest.

I do have difficulty with same tier support units supporting but could be me failing with the UI

SO

HQ
INF
INf
INf
Artillery

and have the Artillery support the infantry
 

Offline kenlon

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2020, 10:37:24 AM »
One thing I've noticed after reading and rereading Steve's Ground Unit posts is that using medium AA batteries is, well, a bit wonky. 

From here:
Quote
Once all direct combat, bombardment support and ground support fire has been resolved, but before damage is allocated, all AA units will be checked to see if they can fire on hostile aircraft, using the following rules:

1) All AA units in a formation that was directly attacked by aircraft will each select a random aircraft from those that attacked that formation.
2) Medium or Heavy AA units in a formation that was not directly attacked by aircraft but is the direct parent of a formation that was attacked will each select a random aircraft from those that are attacking the subordinate formations. *
3) Heavy AA units that are not included in the two categories above will fire on a random hostile aircraft, including those on CAP that are not directly engaged in attacking ground units.

So this means that the only way to get Medium AA to cover a unit is to embed it natively in the command formation, you can't attach them with support orders and have them work.  Preferably, I would like for AA units set to Support the command formation to work like elements of that formation, but even being able to attach batteries to my individual front line battalions would be nice.

As it stands, I look to be best off just using lots of Heavy AA at the regimental level to cover all my antiair, rather than using more focused sets of medium AA.

In general, some revision so that bombardment/AA units behave in a more unified fashion under the support rules would be nice. 
Something like this:
  • Light elements are unchanged - LAA covers only it's own formation, Light Bombardment can fire alongside a frontline formation from a support position.
  • Medium AA attached in support of a formation will act as if they are part of that formation.  So when attached to a frontline formation, they will fire against aircraft that attack the supported formation. 
    When attached or integral to a command formation, they will fire against aircraft attacking any of the subordinate formations.
  • Medium Bombardment, when attached directly to a frontline unit, will either attack the formation in combat with the supported unit, or will attack units attached in support to that enemy unit.  So your medium artillery operating closely with a formation will hit enemy light/medium bombardment or medium AA support that their formation is engaged with. 
    When attached or integral to a command unit it can select targets from any of the enemy formations being engaged by subordinate formations.
  • Heavy Bombardment, when attached to a frontline unit, will hit the engaged enemy, units supporting the engaged enemy whether support or RE, and (with a reduced chance to hit for balance) the parent unit of the engaged enemy, along with any units supporting that parent.
    When attached or integral to a command unit it will engage any enemy units in combat with subordinate units, reaching into support/RE as usual.

It's not perfect, and I would welcome ideas, but the core of the idea is that you can either focus your support elements on your frontline units, supporting a breakthrough attempt heavily, for example, or you can attach them at the command level and get coverage of all your units at the price of not being able to focus against a single target as well.

And to wander off to another topic, I think Polestar gets close to what would be the ideal logistics overhaul, but not quite.
Quote from: Polestar link=topic=11205. msg129914#msg129914 date=1588414918
I would prefer it if the game:
a) at least made mobile supplies less costly compared to infantry supplies and ideally removed the distinction altogether,
b) had units use their own supplies by preference, auto-replenishing from other sources if available,
c) allowed this to happen from any mobile supply on the battlefield, with hierarchy acting only as a preference, and most importantly,
d) showed rounds (or days) of supply remaining in the Order of Battle view

I'd revise these to something like this:
  • Swap the local-only supply component from infantry to static, to represent supply dumps attached to a particular unit.
  • Have units refill supply in this order: Local supply, supply attached directly in support, supply attached/integral to the parent formation, supply attached integral to the parent of the parent, continuing on from there. 
    Top level formations can refill from other top level formations, maybe with the rate of fill being something influenced by commander skill.
  • Have the top level formation show how much combat time it has in total, and have each level down in the formation hierarchy show how much supply it has available without calling on higher-level supplies.

Being able to pay to refit/upgrade elements over time, as well as having the option to either refill to a template from another formation, or to put a formation back into a Training Center to replace losses, is a must. 
If Steve is against letting elements be upgraded, for some reason, then the element names should have a tag added over time showing how obsolete they are (how many tech levels behind, basically).  You could make some argument for allowing the construction/use of obsolete units if they were to get cheaper over time, gaining a cost reduction in proportion to how much they lag your current units, but I'm really unenthused by the idea.

Quote from: Father Tim link=topic=11205. msg130019#msg130019 date=1588430904
That's fine.   Plasma Carronades are a waste of resources too --  it is not necessary (or even desirable) that everything in the game is perfectly balanced against everything else.

This sort of argument makes for bad game design, and it's unrealistic, too.  No one uses bolt-action rifles as infantry small-arms anymore.  Why? Because they are a waste compared to automatics.  And no one builds BBs anymore either - because they are useless in an age of carriers and ASMs. 
Things should be roughly balanced against each other, not having some things as traps to catch people who don't know they're useless.  Plasma Carronades should have some place that they are very good, other than in generating lots of PPV for civvies who don't know they suck. 
Perhaps a change to make them good against shields, given that shields are much better in C# would give them a role?
 

Online kks

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Re: A review and critique of ground forces in version 1.93
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2020, 04:54:35 PM »
This sort of argument makes for bad game design, and it's unrealistic, too.  No one uses bolt-action rifles as infantry small-arms anymore.  Why? Because they are a waste compared to automatics.  And no one builds BBs anymore either - because they are useless in an age of carriers and ASMs. 
Things should be roughly balanced against each other, not having some things as traps to catch people who don't know they're useless.  Plasma Carronades should have some place that they are very good, other than in generating lots of PPV for civvies who don't know they suck. 
Perhaps a change to make them good against shields, given that shields are much better in C# would give them a role?

I don't think this is how things in this "game" should be designed. The very nature of Aurora imho is not to give an balanced, well rounded gameplay for the player to jump in (like many usual computer games; e.g. Civ) but to give the opportunity to create an empire/story/game according to ones preference and ideas. As such it does not need to be well balanced or have an usage for each weapons, in my opinion.

That said, I would like to see more flexibility like the MAA you mentioned (also having them in attached formations).

Concerning your ideas for bombardment weapons, I don't understand what the difference to the current system would be. If you have them supporting a formation it does exactly what you describe, I think.
The only thing you seem to want to change is that you don't have to say a MB/HB battery which subordinate to support?
Or do you want to have the units in the same formation?



I do have difficulty with same tier support units supporting but could be me failing with the UI

SO

HQ
INF
INf
INf
Artillery

and have the Artillery support the infantry

I suspect this to be a bug, but somebody said that the HQ capacity of the Arty has to be larger or at least the same than the HQ of the Inf.


Concerning the small vs big discussion I would be in favour of some "You attack, I shoot back"-mechanism. That would also give some sense for securing forces(infantry guards, ...) for formations in Rear/Support Areas.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 05:15:00 PM by kks »