Fleet organization

[roug (OP)]

I would really like to have a better fleet organization and order.

If i have a survey fleet i cannot give the two ships different commands, i need to divide the fleet and then i can give them separated commands, why not let me give them separated commands if i click on one ship, and if i click on the fleet all ships in that fleet overrule the single ships command?

Its just a mess as it is now.

[Jorgen_CAB]

To be honest this makes no sense to me at all... why would you give an order to a separate ship in a fleet in the first place?

The "Fleet" is simply the container you give orders to and the container that moves around on the map. Ships don't move on the map you need to have a fleet container that can contain one or more ships.

In my opinion the current way it work are much less confusing as if you can move ships around by them selves in addition to fleets, that is just two different types doing the same thing and you will not be able to tell them apart either as a fleet can contain one ship using the same name as the ship which is practically the same thing.

If you want a separate ship to do something you need to detach it and then give it an order as it now is a fleet with a single ship.

The only thing I might get onboard with is that you could store orders for sub fleets and as soon as you detach them they automatically get the stored order assigned to them by default if the order is possible in the first place.

It seems a bit odd that you would give orders to individual ships this way since they are not a separate fleet, but sub-fleets perhaps you could do it with.

[Iceranger]

Fleet is the smallest unit you can issue move orders. Ships with different movement orders need to be in different fleets. Otherwise, the fleet stops being a single fleet.

Code: [Select]

fleet: a group of ships sailing together, engaged in the same activity, or under the same ownership.
I guess in some sense it is less confusing in VB6, since there in the fleet movement screen you cannot select a ship and see its info directly.

[Froggiest1982]

Fleet is the smallest unit you can issue move orders. Ships with different movement orders need to be in different fleets. Otherwise, the fleet stops being a single fleet.

Code: [Select]

fleet: a group of ships sailing together, engaged in the same activity, or under the same ownership.
I guess in some sense it is less confusing in VB6, since there in the fleet movement screen you cannot select a ship and see its info directly.

What u used to call fleet in vb6 was actually called Task Group. A Task Group was composed by different ships and you could use formations to create a fleet linked to a single command ship/TG

In C# you have the following:
Admin Command - Former Task Force
Fleet - Former Task Group
Sub Fleet - Former Formation but with way less options
Ship - same as vb6

As I said in many other posts I would really love to have formations back

[Jorgen_CAB]

Fleet is the smallest unit you can issue move orders. Ships with different movement orders need to be in different fleets. Otherwise, the fleet stops being a single fleet.

Code: [Select]

fleet: a group of ships sailing together, engaged in the same activity, or under the same ownership.
I guess in some sense it is less confusing in VB6, since there in the fleet movement screen you cannot select a ship and see its info directly.

What u used to call fleet in vb6 was actually called Task Group. A Task Group was composed by different ships and you could use formations to create a fleet linked to a single command ship/TG

In C# you have the following:
Admin Command - Former Task Force
Fleet - Former Task Group
Sub Fleet - Former Formation but with way less options
Ship - same as vb6

As I said in many other posts I would really love to have formations back

I'm pretty sure Steve are going to add formations or something similar back into the game. There are some indication in the current version it will be there eventually.

For me escorts and formations is a must to play multi-faction games and remain sane, so I hope it is sooner rather than later.

[roug (OP)]

I use the right words.

I have a fleet command with a fleet called survey fleet.

Survey fleet got 2 ships in it, so to let them cover more ground i would like to give them separate ordets, but it's not possible before i divide the fleet. Why not let me have the fleet, with separate ordets?  dont understand why that not make sense.

[Froggiest1982]

I use the right words.

I have a fleet command with a fleet called survey fleet.

Survey fleet got 2 ships in it, so to let them cover more ground i would like to give them separate ordets, but it's not possible before i divide the fleet. Why not let me have the fleet, with separate ordets?  dont understand why that not make sense.

Without talking if right, wrong etc the problem is in the mechanic. Aurora's fleet orders are limited to the system this is why you cannot use templates unless the fleet is in the same location of when the template was set.
This should give you the simplest answer as the behaviour you are asking it's in contrast with the core mechanic of fleet orders.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I use the right words.

I have a fleet command with a fleet called survey fleet.

Survey fleet got 2 ships in it, so to let them cover more ground i would like to give them separate ordets, but it's not possible before i divide the fleet. Why not let me have the fleet, with separate ordets?  dont understand why that not make sense.

I'm not sure if this is more a misunderstanding of what a fleet is. A fleet in aurora is simply the smallest container you can give order to... you don't give orders to individual ships. If you want to give order to an individual ship it will need to be in it's own fleet.

When I use survey ships they always are in their own fleet and operate independently from there using standing and conditional orders.

My question is WHY do you need to give orders to an individual ship when you already can do that as it is now by having the ship on their own. Just because the container is called "fleet" does not mean it actually IS a fleet. I never call fleets as fleets in my game... a fleet is actually something I would designate to an Admin Command which would require some sort of Admiral to lead. Fleets in the real world are very large naval organisations. A "fleet" in the Aurora naval organisation are more like a task-force, task-group, division or squadron of ships and not fleets.

[Froggiest1982]

I use the right words.

I have a fleet command with a fleet called survey fleet.

Survey fleet got 2 ships in it, so to let them cover more ground i would like to give them separate ordets, but it's not possible before i divide the fleet. Why not let me have the fleet, with separate ordets?  dont understand why that not make sense.

I'm not sure if this is more a misunderstanding of what a fleet is. A fleet in aurora is simply the smallest container you can give order to... you don't give orders to individual ships. If you want to give order to an individual ship it will need to be in it's own fleet.

When I use survey ships they always are in their own fleet and operate independently from there using standing and conditional orders.

My question is WHY do you need to give orders to an individual ship when you already can do that as it is now by having the ship on their own. Just because the container is called "fleet" does not mean it actually IS a fleet. I never call fleets as fleets in my game... a fleet is actually something I would designate to an Admin Command which would require some sort of Admiral to lead. Fleets in the real world are very large naval organisations. A "fleet" in the Aurora naval organisation are more like a task-force, task-group, division or squadron of ships and not fleets.

My only guess is people are not using the admin commands properly or they dont want to go through the selection of multiple admin command leaders to set up their structure.

I personally love it and I use my ribbons to highlight each command. I like after 49/50 years to see my admiral multiple admin positions before arriving at the top of the food chain.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

My only guess is people are not using the admin commands properly or they dont want to go through the selection of multiple admin command leaders to set up their structure.

Am I missing something here?

Previous VB6 implementation of Fleet/Task Group formations and commands allowed things that I don't think you can do currently in C#. Bearing/Distance formations for sure isn't possible to pull off automatically currently.

In general, I agree with the OP  that more in-depth Fleet organization options are very desirable. Features I'd personally like to see implemented:

- Formation controls: multiple task groups of ships flying around in formation around formation leader group, Aurora VB6/CMANO style.
- Fleet wide EMCON/Weapon controls: higher level fleet setup dictates active sensors and weapons stances, while individual ships and task groups may be overridden, plus button to clear active overrides.
- Fleet wide standing orders: they come in effect after individual orders are done, for easier management of large formations, especially useful for carriers + parasites (RTB + land automatically when done with current task). Similarly, current "divide fleet" + join fleet could be automated with this as well.

All these can be orchestrated manually, of course, but the point is to make management of complex formations easier.

[Froggiest1982]

My only guess is people are not using the admin commands properly or they dont want to go through the selection of multiple admin command leaders to set up their structure.

Am I missing something here?

Previous VB6 implementation of Fleet/Task Group formations and commands allowed things that I don't think you can do currently in C#. Bearing/Distance formations for sure isn't possible to pull off automatically currently.

In general, I agree with the OP  that more in-depth Fleet organization options are very desirable. Features I'd personally like to see implemented:

- Formation controls: multiple task groups of ships flying around in formation around formation leader group, Aurora VB6/CMANO style.
- Fleet wide EMCON/Weapon controls: higher level fleet setup dictates active sensors and weapons stances, while individual ships and task groups may be overridden, plus button to clear active overrides.
- Fleet wide standing orders: they come in effect after individual orders are done, for easier management of large formations, especially useful for carriers + parasites (RTB + land automatically when done with current task). Similarly, current "divide fleet" + join fleet could be automated with this as well.

All these can be orchestrated manually, of course, but the point is to make management of complex formations easier.

I was referring to the missunderstanding part from Jorgen post in reply. The rest I already explained my position and differences from vb6 and does not differ to yours much anyway 

[Jorgen_CAB]

In C# I believe that formations and escorts will be tied into sub-fleets and the ability to detach them to then function as fleets in formation around the parent fleet. I'm sure that Steve have this in mind eventually in a similar way to VB6, it is just a matter of time and inspiration to do it. I believe it is a fair bit of coding to get it to work in a good way.

I also agree that it is different from the fleet versus admin command issue which I touched upon... even for formation we are never going to give orders to individual ships. At most we will give formation and escort orders to sub-fleets.

I think that when you detach a sub-fleet it could still be assigned to another fleet just like a fighter is assigned to a carrier. This could then be used to issue formation orders to that fleet that use the assigned fleet as the anchor of the order. I think that sub-fleet hierarchies could very well be remembered even when they are detached so you can issue order like join assigned fleet as sub-fleet or follow assigned fleet at 60 degree at 10 million km distance etc... An assigned fleet could even be a sub-fleet of an existing fleet as well, such as a scout on an escort ship for example that might detach and move into some patrol pattern around the fleet.

When these things are added to the game then C# Aurora are pretty much complete from the old Aurora. Sure.... the genetic engineering also should be added but I feel that formations and escort mechanics is even more important than that, but that is just my opinion.

[Rince Wind]

It would be nice to be able to "detach with standing/conditional orders". So you can build 5 survey ships at once, put them in a fleet and set the orders once, then separate them.

And/Or have subfleets retain their standing orders, that would make using carriers with smaller survey craft less of a pain.

[mike2R]

It would be nice to be able to "detach with standing/conditional orders". So you can build 5 survey ships at once, put them in a fleet and set the orders once, then separate them.

This does work with the divide fleet order - standing/conditional orders are maintained.

[Rince Wind]

Thanks, good to know. But it wouldn't help much with carriers, I think. I need to try.