The question is about designing ideal missiles.

[Entaro (OP)]

Sorry for my english please)

I would like to create a long-range missile fleet.  Possible benefits:
 - minimization of costs for protective systems
 - no costs (and research!) for short-range weapons, except for point defense.
 - minimization of losses (if the enemy does not reach me with anything at all)

And now the question is, how real is it? What interests me:

1) What technologies besides rocket reload speed engines should I research first?
What is the name of the technology for two-stage missiles and how to get there?

2) How exactly the error "Fixed bug that caused 2-stage buoys without targets to self-destruct. " ?
Do first stage launch vehicles (large and slow) self-destruct? Or small rockets after separation? If there are no powerful enough sensors.

3) How viable is the two-stage missile option?
I see it like this:
Slow but very long-range two-stage missiles with a speed of 7500-10000 km / s are launched from a huge distance, with a large number of volleys.
They are equipped with sensors that will allow you to catch a target at a distance of 10 million km.
At a distance of 2 million km from the enemy, separation occurs, and missiles at a speed of 20-30 k km / s or more rush towards the enemy.
If we calculate the frequency of the volleys so that more than 100 seconds pass between my volleys, then the sensors on small missiles are not needed, right?

In my opinion, there are some pluses:
 - The speed and other characteristics of combat missiles are maximized.
 - No need for sensors for combat missiles.
 - First stage rockets (drones) switch between targets in time.
What am I missing? :)

4) As I understand it, the most important problem in missile strategy is effectively overcoming missile defense.  And the most unpleasant thing about it is a small beam weapon capable of shooting down several missiles every 5 seconds . . .
Is it possible to defeat this with the following tactic ?:
 - Among the conditional 200 combat missiles in a salvo, 150 are small size 1 missiles with a minimum warhead.  40 size 3 rockets and 10 large and powerful rockets.
 - They all fly at the same speed
 - Thus, on impact, the enemy defense deals not with 100, but with 200 missiles.
If the enemy point defense is capable of shooting down 100 missiles at the final stage, then there will be another 100, some of which will not miss, and will cause damage.
And if there were 100 size 3, they would all be shot down.
Am I thinking right?
Or do I not take into account something?

5) What is the best way to choose targets when shooting? Manually targeting another ship after each volley? Are there any optimal automatic options?

[ArcWolf]

What is the name of the technology for two-stage missiles and how to get there?

No tech needed. First you design your 2nd stage (the stage with the warheads). Once that is fully researched you then go back to the missile designer and create your 1st stage (engine stage). In the middle of the Missile design window, right above where you name your missiles is a drop down box labeled "second stage", select the missile you want to be the 2nd stage here, change the number to the number of 2nd stage missiles you want added, and change the separation stage to when you want the 2nd stage to separate.

2) How exactly the error "Fixed bug that caused 2-stage buoys without targets to self-destruct. " ?
Do first stage launch vehicles (large and slow) self-destruct? Or small rockets after separation? If there are no powerful enough sensors.

Not sure since i do not use 2stage missiles often, but i believe if there was no target the missile would self destruct even if it was meant to "sit and wait" for a target.

3) How viable is the two-stage missile option?

It depends on the situation. 2 Stage missiles are often used as mines. the 1st stage has no engines or fuel, but does have a sensor to detect ships. If a ship enters it's separation range it launches it's 2nd stage, which is often multiple missiles.

Others use them to emulate modern-day submarines, a very stealthy ship that targets hostile shipping/mining/harvesting from out side detection range.

In my opinion, there are some pluses:
 - The speed and other characteristics of combat missiles are maximized.
 - No need for sensors for combat missiles.
 - First stage rockets (drones) switch between targets in time.
What am I missing?

Combat stage missiles DO need sensors otherwise they would not be able to find what they were launched at. (pretty sure at least)

4) As I understand it, the most important problem in missile strategy is effectively overcoming missile defense.  And the most unpleasant thing about it is a small beam weapon capable of shooting down several missiles every 5 seconds . . .
Is it possible to defeat this with the following tactic ?:
 - Among the conditional 200 combat missiles in a salvo, 150 are small size 1 missiles with a minimum warhead.  40 size 3 rockets and 10 large and powerful rockets.
 - They all fly at the same speed
 - Thus, on impact, the enemy defense deals not with 100, but with 200 missiles.
If the enemy point defense is capable of shooting down 100 missiles at the final stage, then there will be another 100, some of which will not miss, and will cause damage.
And if there were 100 size 3, they would all be shot down.
Am I thinking right?
Or do I not take into account something?

You can do this, but i don't see the point. Let's assume 90% of your missiles are destroyed by PD. 15 of your Size 1, 4 of your size 3 and 1 of your powerful missiles get through. Lets assume for a moment your missile damage is 1 for the Size 1, 4 for the size 4, and 9 for the largest missile. You have done a total of 40 Damage with that volley.

If on the other hand you fired 200 powerful missiles and 90% get destroyed, you are still landed 20 missiles that do 9 damage each, so 180 damage.

Also, you do not want to "stagger launch" missiles. You want them all arriving at the same time to overwhelm the enemy Point Defense. If the enemy can shot down 100 every 5 seconds, having 1 wave of 100 arrive, and 5 seconds later a second wave of 100 arrive just means all 200 will be shot down. But if 200 arrive at the same time, only 100 can be shot down and the other 100 will hit their targets.

To help this there is a option called "fleet fire" you want this on for all missile ships most of the time. A ship under fleet fire orders will have a "(F)" after their name.

5) What is the best way to choose targets when shooting? Manually targeting another ship after each volley? Are there any optimal automatic options?

Unless you are attacking unarmed ships, manually targeting is the best idea. Additionally you want to target the ships that are the most "dangerous" to your fleet doctrine. If you are using primarily missiles, dedicated Point Defense ships should be a first priority to weaken the enemy fleets point defense and allow more missiles to get through and destroy targets.

I hope this helps. Also, your English if quite good, don't worry about it.

[Iceranger]

4) As I understand it, the most important problem in missile strategy is effectively overcoming missile defense.  And the most unpleasant thing about it is a small beam weapon capable of shooting down several missiles every 5 seconds . . .
Is it possible to defeat this with the following tactic ?:
 - Among the conditional 200 combat missiles in a salvo, 150 are small size 1 missiles with a minimum warhead.  40 size 3 rockets and 10 large and powerful rockets.
 - They all fly at the same speed
 - Thus, on impact, the enemy defense deals not with 100, but with 200 missiles.
If the enemy point defense is capable of shooting down 100 missiles at the final stage, then there will be another 100, some of which will not miss, and will cause damage.
And if there were 100 size 3, they would all be shot down.
Am I thinking right?
Or do I not take into account something?

The targeting of the PD have been changed, now they target larger missiles first. So your 150 S1 missile will not act as decoys as you have hoped. If you want to use decoys, the decoy missiles have to be slightly larger than your main missiles.

The main way to overcome enemy missile defense is to increase your volley size. If they have the capability to shoot down 100 missiles, a 200-missile volley will lost 50% of its power, but a 400-missile volley will only lose 25%.

[Entaro (OP)]

Not sure since i do not use 2stage missiles often, but i believe if there was no target the missile would self destruct even if it was meant to "sit and wait" for a target.   

As I understand it, if a missile with a sensor loses its target, it must continue to fly to the place where its target was, and if it detects a new target during the flight, attack it. 
The bug (which will be fixed in version 1.  14) is that the missile, if it is a two-stage (drone), self-destructs if it loses its target. 
Or am I wrong?

I read the topic about mines, and they wrote about it there as the reason for the impossibility of using mines. 

It depends on the situation.   2 Stage missiles are often used as mines.   the 1st stage has no engines or fuel, but does have a sensor to detect ships.   If a ship enters it's separation range it launches it's 2nd stage, which is often multiple missiles. 

https://aurora2.  pentarch.  org/index.  php?topic=11417.  60
Here people tried to make mine fields and ran into bug.  .  .   

Combat stage missiles DO need sensors otherwise they would not be able to find what they were launched at.   (pretty sure at least)

So, after all, what level should the sensors be installed on, on the first or on the second?

Logically, the second stage missiles (with warheads) should automatically target the target of their first stage .  .  .   Or not?

You can do this, but i don't see the point.   Let's assume 90% of your missiles are destroyed by PD.   15 of your Size 1, 4 of your size 3 and 1 of your powerful missiles get through.   Lets assume for a moment your missile damage is 1 for the Size 1, 4 for the size 4, and 9 for the largest missile.   You have done a total of 40 Damage with that volley. 

If on the other hand you fired 200 powerful missiles and 90% get destroyed, you are still landed 20 missiles that do 9 damage each, so 180 damage. 

Also, you do not want to "stagger launch" missiles.   You want them all arriving at the same time to overwhelm the enemy Point Defense.   If the enemy can shot down 100 every 5 seconds, having 1 wave of 100 arrive, and 5 seconds later a second wave of 100 arrive just means all 200 will be shot down.   But if 200 arrive at the same time, only 100 can be shot down and the other 100 will hit their targets.   

To help this there is a option called "fleet fire" you want this on for all missile ships most of the time.   A ship under fleet fire orders will have a "(F)" after their name. 

The problem is that to fire a salvo of 100 size 3 rockets, you need 100 size 4 launchers (which will fire two-stage rockets at a time). 
The same 200 first stage missiles can contain a total of 50 size 3 missiles and 150 size 1 missiles. 
Let's say we only have 10 ships, 10 rocket launchers each. 

And here the question is, how many missiles can an enemy fleet shoot down in a salvo?
If the enemy can shoot down 100 missiles per salvo, then there is no point in launching 100 larger missiles, because they do (almost) no damage.   At the same time, firing 200 missiles, including small ones, 100 will reach the target. 

On the other hand, if the enemy fleet is capable of shooting down only 30 missiles, then it would be advantageous to launch 100 larger missiles than 200, of which 150 are "small". 
Is it possible during a battle to change the type of ammunition on a ship if there is an ammunition storage ship nearby? And if so, how long will it take?
The ideal option is to send several volleys of small useless missiles in order to understand the power of the enemy missile defense, and then, based on this, choose the type of missiles to attack. 

An alternative option is to try to use such a large number of ships / rocket launchers / salvo size, respectively, that no enemy missile defense system could cope with even half of them.   But there is a drawback in unnecessary cost overruns. 

Unless you are attacking unarmed ships, manually targeting is the best idea.   Additionally you want to target the ships that are the most "dangerous" to your fleet doctrine.   If you are using primarily missiles, dedicated Point Defense ships should be a first priority to weaken the enemy fleets point defense and allow more missiles to get through and destroy targets. 

And how do I know, at a distance of 100 million km, which one is a point defense ship?)

[Entaro (OP)]

The targeting of the PD have been changed, now they target larger missiles first.  So your 150 S1 missile will not act as decoys as you have hoped.  If you want to use decoys, the decoy missiles have to be slightly larger than your main missiles.

The main way to overcome enemy missile defense is to increase your volley size.  If they have the capability to shoot down 100 missiles, a 200-missile volley will lost 50% of its power, but a 400-missile volley will only lose 25%.

he wondered . . .  Is it possible to somehow overcome this?
Let's say . . .  Make the small decoy missiles a little faster so that they reach the enemy 1-2 seconds earlier, and the point defense will shoot at them, and will reload when the larger missiles arrive?
Or, will all missiles arrived within 5 seconds be considered to have arrived at the same time? For "last line defense"?

Those.  There is no point at all in using missiles of different sizes, in the expectation that there are fewer missiles in the swarm, larger missiles will be able to break through?
And it makes no sense to launch "large torpedoes" together with medium-sized missiles, since will they be attacked by the enemy beam defenses first?
In this case, the only thing that remains is to make the missiles uniform and try to maximize their characteristics and quantity . . .

Only here is how to at least roughly determine what size of the fleet I need (in the sense of how many missiles in a salvo will be enough) before the start of the war with NPR?

[Andrew]

he wondered . . .  Is it possible to somehow overcome this?
Let's say . . .  Make the small decoy missiles a little faster so that they reach the enemy 1-2 seconds earlier, and the point defense will shoot at them, and will reload when the larger missiles arrive?
Or, will all missiles arrived within 5 seconds be considered to have arrived at the same time? For "last line defense"?

The last is correct the smallest interval of time is the 5 second interval all missiles arrive in one 5 second interval, if there is a gap the rest arrive in the 2nd interval and the point defense fires again.
There is NEVER a reason to spread out missile attacks over time, all missiles need to hit in the same 5 second interval or multiply the effectivness of the point defense by the number of intervals the missiles arrive over.
Large missiles do not work as decoys as they are destroyed by 1 hit like a smaller missile so by reducing the number of missiles in the salvo they increase the effectivness of the point defense
Just use large salvo's of missiles with the same speed.


No way to work out how many missiles you need. Ther variables are
1) number of ships in the fleet you are shooting at.
2) How many are AMM or PD ships
3) Relative technology or how good your missiles speed is at defeating their fire control.


Assume lots, if you fire too few you have wasted resources for nothing. If you fire too many at least you got the kills.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

Only here is how to at least roughly determine what size of the fleet I need (in the sense of how many missiles in a salvo will be enough) before the start of the war with NPR?

There really isn't a way to do this. How many missiles needed per salvo depends on enemy technology, enemy fleet size, etc. More missiles is always better, in that the more missiles you use per salvo, the fewer total missiles you'll need to fire to kill a given quantity of enemy ships. The thing with missiles is that they are very expensive, so reducing total expenditure is important.

That said, once you have some scouting info on the enemy you can start to figure out what salvo size you need.

Salvo size to overcome a given point defense gun setup can be measured in terms of "speed capacity." I.e. the number of shots their point defense gets, times the tracking speed for the weapons. 2 shots at 20,000km/s tracking can stop (on average) 1 missile going 40,000km/s or 2 missiles going 20,000km/s. You can estimate this "speed capacity" by launching a volley and adding up the speeds of all the missiles that their point defense destroys. I.e. if it destroys 4 20,000km/s missiles then its speed capacity is at least 80,000km/s.

Salvo size to overcome countermissiles are a little more complicated. Again, a speed capacity estimate is usable; however that capacity is harder to calculate. You need to figure out how many countermissile volleys they get to launch (which depends on how big the enemy's anti-missile sensors are and how long ranged their countermissiles are AND what the rate of fire on their countermissile launchers is). Then you need to estimate their countermissile hit rate against a given missile speed, and multiply that by the number volleys AND the number of countermissiles per volley. Against countermissiles, you can either increase salvo size OR decrease the spacing between salvos (i.e. if your salvos are 30 seconds apart and their countermissile launchers have a 10 second reload time, they only get 3 launches against each salvo even if their range would allow more).

[ArcWolf]

I read the topic about mines, and they wrote about it there as the reason for the impossibility of using mines. 

It depends on the situation.   2 Stage missiles are often used as mines.   the 1st stage has no engines or fuel, but does have a sensor to detect ships.   If a ship enters it's separation range it launches it's 2nd stage, which is often multiple missiles. 

https://aurora2.  pentarch.  org/index.  php?topic=11417.  60
Here people tried to make mine fields and ran into bug.  .  .   

I have not used mines in 1.13 (current build) but i have not had issues with them in the past.

So, after all, what level should the sensors be installed on, on the first or on the second?

Logically, the second stage missiles (with warheads) should automatically target the target of their first stage .  .  .   Or not?

Honestly, i do not know. Hopefully someone who knows definitively will comment soon for you.

And here the question is, how many missiles can an enemy fleet shoot down in a salvo?
If the enemy can shoot down 100 missiles per salvo, then there is no point in launching 100 larger missiles, because they do (almost) no damage.   At the same time, firing 200 missiles, including small ones, 100 will reach the target. 

On the other hand, if the enemy fleet is capable of shooting down only 30 missiles, then it would be advantageous to launch 100 larger missiles than 200, of which 150 are "small". 
Is it possible during a battle to change the type of ammunition on a ship if there is an ammunition storage ship nearby? And if so, how long will it take?
The ideal option is to send several volleys of small useless missiles in order to understand the power of the enemy missile defense, and then, based on this, choose the type of missiles to attack. 

An alternative option is to try to use such a large number of ships / rocket launchers / salvo size, respectively, that no enemy missile defense system could cope with even half of them.   But there is a drawback in unnecessary cost overruns. 

...

And how do I know, at a distance of 100 million km, which one is a point defense ship?)

unfortunately, the only way to find out is to observe the enemy ships within sensor range during combat. This can be done a number of ways, but if your going for long range missile engagement you should consider recon fighters. 500 ton ships that are almost all engine and active sensors.

[Andrew]

If you fire small missiles from a large sized launcher you are getting the worst of both worlds,
You will fire at the rate of fire of the large launcher which will be slower, and the launcher will be much larger than for the small missiles and so you will have less launchers. Plus when you mix your large and small missiles the large ones will be shot down first. Carry appropriate missiles for your launchers not random sized missiles there is no point. Mixing missiles of different sizes serves no sensible purpose , pick a size and mount launchers for that size. The exception being you may have anti-ship missiles and AMM's which will probably be different sizes but you don't plan on stacking them in salvo's . If you do really , really want your useless decoys for RP reasons you could have 2 types of missile for your AMM launchers one of which is slower and linger ranged and can fire in salvo's with your ASM's but they will be prety useless missiles
You can have different types of missile for instance a long ranged missile and a shorter ranged missile with either higher speed or larger warhead. Changing the missile selected for a launcher is a pain and if you are not careful you will fire a mixture of the 2 missile types and if the speed is different they will arrive at different times. I make sure my fighter missiles have the same speed even if shorter range as my ship launched missiles just in case I need to mass the fighters fire with the ships.

[Entaro (OP)]

Thank you all very much!
I would love to see real designs / designs of missiles.  For some reason, there are almost none of them on Wikipedia, unlike ship designs.  Two-stage rockets are of particular interest.
Do I understand correctly that it is highly desirable to put sensors in the first stage, but not in the second?

Let me summarize for myself some results:

1.  In any case, you need to strive for the maximum possible salvo size, the same size, fast enough and powerful enough missiles.
I would really like to see examples of good two-stage rockets designs, because I found very little on the wiki.  As I understand it, you need a warhead power of at least 9, or better 16 (but you need to find out what kind of armor the enemy has, and how ??).  After all, if the armor is at least 3, then missiles with a warhead of 9 will only penetrate the armor . . .

2.  It would be very good at the beginning of the battle, at a long distance, to find out the capabilities of the enemy's missile defense.
Please tell me, after the missiles hit, I will have information / statistics, how many missiles were shot down on the approach, at the last line, and how many successfully inflicted damage?

3.  Proceeding from clause 1 - the maximum efficiency will be given by volleys of large two-stage missiles, because the launch of 100 missiles of size 13, containing 3 missiles of size 4, will result in a total of 300 combat missiles in a salvo.  A sufficiently long reload time will make it possible to make sure that only 1 salvo of combat missiles is in flight - thanks to this, as I understand it, there is no need to put sensors on combat missiles.
Do I understand correctly that after the separation, the second stages inherit the purpose of the first ones automatically?

4.  I do not know how to estimate the power of the enemy in advance, except for the known tonnage.  Since I started out as a traditional empire, I guess NPR's tech level is higher.
If I only know the tonnage, then the only way to be + is to be confident in victory, you need to have the tonnage of my combat fleet 2-3 times more than that of the enemy.

[Zook]

I'm not saying this missile is in any way ideal, but it's what I use now against Precursor fleets. It's the first model that actually gets the job done:

1st stage:
Raketnaya 10K4 Komplex A7-III   Speed: 23,400 km/s    End: 68.9m     Range: 99.6m km    WH: 0    Size: 10    TH: 78/46/23

2nd stage, separation range 4 million km:
Raketnaya 6S62 Komplex E-III    Speed: 62,000 km/s    End: 1.2m     Range: 4.4m km    WH: 18    Size: 6    TH: 268/161/80

No sensors on them. The 2nd stage has ECM 30. That, plus its speed, ensures no defensive fire at all (or none that I've noticed). I should mention that it took me 60 years before I had the tech...

[Jorgen_CAB]

One thing that I know is that using ECM on your missiles is almost like cheating against the NPR because they never use ECCM on their AMM and not even sure they use it on their ships PD guns either. If you have some tech parity with the NPR then at about ECM 30 they often have like zero or close to zero chance of intercepting your ASM with their AMM.