v2.2.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Neophyte]

I assume that if you genemod people to the point they are outside colony cost 0.0 on your planet you need to supply their new colony with infrastructure?

[kilo]

I assume that if you genemod people to the point they are outside colony cost 0.0 on your planet you need to supply their new colony with infrastructure?

That has been the case in VB6 and was pretty useful as it reduced terraforming requirements. In C# it should have the additional benefit of allowing for cheaper specialized ground forces. Right now you have to choose between more expensive and slower to build units and eating an efficiency malus after all.

[lumporr]

I assume that if you genemod people to the point they are outside colony cost 0.0 on your planet you need to supply their new colony with infrastructure?

That has been the case in VB6 and was pretty useful as it reduced terraforming requirements. In C# it should have the additional benefit of allowing for cheaper specialized ground forces. Right now you have to choose between more expensive and slower to build units and eating an efficiency malus after all.

It would be interesting to have species bonuses to racial weapon/armor values for ground units built on the colonies of certain races (as it would be cool (if gamebreaking) to have the ability to modify the racial traits such as growth rate, construction rate, research rate selected on game start), but I have the feeling these numbers might be tied to more than race, and might be a headache to untangle. Also, it would mean some separation of ground unit by empire species, which might also be a situation to avoid. Ultimately, I'd much rather see the current changes implemented and released rather than continue to wishlist new things, but there's always hope for the future.

[Kaiser]

Finally the genetic modification species! I am going to create human-like beings all over the universes, then release them as independent species and see how they perform.

[kilo]

I assume that if you genemod people to the point they are outside colony cost 0.0 on your planet you need to supply their new colony with infrastructure?

That has been the case in VB6 and was pretty useful as it reduced terraforming requirements. In C# it should have the additional benefit of allowing for cheaper specialized ground forces. Right now you have to choose between more expensive and slower to build units and eating an efficiency malus after all.

It would be interesting to have species bonuses to racial weapon/armor values for ground units built on the colonies of certain races (as it would be cool (if gamebreaking) to have the ability to modify the racial traits such as growth rate, construction rate, research rate selected on game start), but I have the feeling these numbers might be tied to more than race, and might be a headache to untangle. Also, it would mean some separation of ground unit by empire species, which might also be a situation to avoid. Ultimately, I'd much rather see the current changes implemented and released rather than continue to wishlist new things, but there's always hope for the future.

This is in the game right now. There are ground unit adaptations for pressure, temperature and gravitation. If you fight on a world that has conditions for which are outside your species' tolerance level, you get significant combat effectiveness reductions. You can work your way around that by either developing specialized units, which are more expensive to build and maintain or you can gene-mod your people so that the conditions become less hostile.

[lumporr]

This is in the game right now. There are ground unit adaptations for pressure, temperature and gravitation. If you fight on a world that has conditions for which are outside your species' tolerance level, you get significant combat effectiveness reductions. You can work your way around that by either developing specialized units, which are more expensive to build and maintain or you can gene-mod your people so that the conditions become less hostile.

Ahh! I didn't know about the tolerance penalties. That makes perfect sense! And, I suppose it could be argued that the advanced nature of war in the TN era might make any species physical characteristics moot in terms of effects on the outcome of a combat encounter (besides being more or less suited to the environment, as mentioned). Still, I'm all for more options in gene-modding regarding the other (research speed etc.) characteristics mentioned, at some point.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I'm running multiple game start-up generations to test if NPRs can handle the new missile options and the new NPR design code. This starting design popped up from one NPR. The 173 missile launchers will probably give the player something to think about :)

Charlemagne class Strike Cruiser      77,846 tons       1,184 Crew       10,108.7 BP       TCS 1,557    TH 6,975    EM 0
4480 km/s      Armour 10-162       Shields 0-0       HTK 424      Sensors 18/6/0/0      DCR 36-4      PPV 207.6
Maint Life 0.38 Years     MSP 2,921    AFR 1347%    IFR 18.7%    1YR 7,654    5YR 114,816    Max Repair 1896.8 MSP
Magazine 6,934   
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP387.5 (18)    Power 6975.0    Fuel Use 34.08%    Signature 387.5    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 3,550,000 Litres    Range 24.1 billion km (62 days at full power)

Size 65 Decoy Launcher (6)     Decoy Size: 65    Hangar Reload 403 minutes    MF Reload 67 hours
Size 4 Missile Launcher (30.0% Reduction) (173)     Missile Size: 4    Rate of Fire 1500
Missile Fire Control FC68-R130 (3)     Range 68.6m km    Resolution 130   ECCM-1
Potgietersrus Ship Decoy (6)    Signature: 13000 tons    ECM-1    Size: 65
Gobabis Anti-Ship Missile (1636)    Speed: 25,000 km/s    End: 34.5m     Range: 51.7m km    WH: 5    Size: 4    TH: 83/50/25

Active Search Sensor AS72-R130 (1)     GPS 14040     Range 72.8m km    Resolution 130
Active Search Sensor AS31-R20 (1)     GPS 1440     Range 31.8m km    Resolution 20
Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  33.5m km
EM Sensor EM1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.4m km

Electronic Warfare Jammers:   Sensor 1    Fire Control 1    Missile 1   

Another NPR in the same game start is using size 9 laser torpedoes that carry ECCM plus a single decoy and inflict a 2-point laser hit from 87,000 km out (4.8 warhead at detonation).

This is the largest Precursor ship from the same game, which has decent EW capabilities and strong shields. The missiles have ECM 2 and a single decoy with Missile ECM-2

Grek class Strike Cruiser      39,890 tons       720 Crew       6,242.9 BP       TCS 798    TH 4,752    EM 10,710
5956 km/s      Armour 6-103       Shields 357-476       HTK 209      Sensors 16/24/0/0      DCR 12-3      PPV 93
Maint Life 0.45 Years     MSP 1,173    AFR 1061%    IFR 14.7%    1YR 2,585    5YR 38,773    Max Repair 656.1 MSP
Magazine 2,729   
Swordsman of Worlds    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP528 (9)    Power 4752    Fuel Use 27.52%    Signature 528    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,900,000 Litres    Range 31.1 billion km (60 days at full power)
Epsilon S119 / R476 Shields (3)     Recharge Time 476 seconds (0.8 per second)

Size 34 Decoy Launcher (6)     Decoy Size: 34    Hangar Reload 291 minutes    MF Reload 48 hours
Size 5 Missile Launcher (30.0% Reduction) (62)     Missile Size: 5    Rate of Fire 1345
Missile Fire Control FC89-R120 (3)     Range 89.1m km    Resolution 120   ECCM-2
Baltimore Ship Decoy (6)    Signature: 6800 tons    ECM-2    Size: 34
Albany Anti-Ship Missile (505)    Speed: 29,440 km/s    End: 45.9m     Range: 81m km    WH: 7    Size: 5    TH: 98/58/29

Active Search Sensor AS94-R120 (1)     GPS 17280     Range 94.5m km    Resolution 120
Active Search Sensor AS42-R20 (1)     GPS 1920     Range 42.4m km    Resolution 20
Thermal Sensor TH2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  31.6m km
EM Sensor EM3-24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km

Electronic Warfare Jammers:   Sensor 2    Fire Control 2    Missile 2   

This design was from a beam-only race in the same start-up (10 NPRs). Its an ion-engined mid-size ship with a 6000 km/s speed. Also good EW capabilities.

Grim Reaper class Heavy Cruiser      14,320 tons       448 Crew       2,458.3 BP       TCS 286    TH 1,742    EM 2,160
6082 km/s      Armour 3-52       Shields 72-400       HTK 98      Sensors 16/16/0/0      DCR 8-5      PPV 50
Maint Life 2.27 Years     MSP 858    AFR 205%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 225    5YR 3,380    Max Repair 217.75 MSP
Magazine 76   
Capitán de Fragata    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP435.50 (4)    Power 1742.0    Fuel Use 77.34%    Signature 435.5    Explosion 13%
Fuel Capacity 1,100,000 Litres    Range 17.9 billion km (34 days at full power)
Epsilon S72 / R400 Shields (1)     Recharge Time 400 seconds (0.2 per second)

25.00cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 6,082 km/s     Power 16-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 20       
20cm C3.5 Ultraviolet Laser (7)    Range 256,000km     TS: 6,082 km/s     Power 10-3.5     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS6000 (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s    ECCM-2     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor R4 (1)     Total Power Output 4.3    Exp 5%
Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor R4 (7)     Total Power Output 25.1    Exp 5%

Size 19 Decoy Launcher (4)     Decoy Size: 19    Hangar Reload 218 minutes    MF Reload 36 hours
Sonora Ship Decoy (4)    Signature: 3800 tons    ECM-2    Size: 19

Active Search Sensor AS76-R118 (1)     GPS 11328     Range 76.7m km    Resolution 118
Thermal Sensor TH2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  31.6m km
EM Sensor EM2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  31.6m km

Electronic Warfare Jammers:   Sensor 2    Fire Control 2    Missile 2   

Another NPR, but with 'normal' size ships and only gas core tech. Even so, the size 11 missiles have ECCM-1, three decoys, onboard thermal sensors and a retarget capability. The AMM for this race is size 2.5 and has retarget capability. Other races have size 2 AMMs with dual warheads and size 3 with ECCM and dual warheads.

Risto Ryti class Strike Cruiser      23,223 tons       446 Crew       2,900.6 BP       TCS 464    TH 1,560    EM 3,690
3358 km/s      Armour 4-72       Shields 123-351       HTK 126      Sensors 18/12/0/0      DCR 12-5      PPV 62.7
Maint Life 1.76 Years     MSP 936    AFR 360%    IFR 5.0%    1YR 370    5YR 5,552    Max Repair 292.2 MSP
Magazine 1,322   
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Nuclear Gas-Core Engine  EP260 (6)    Power 1560    Fuel Use 43.41%    Signature 260    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 950,000 Litres    Range 17 billion km (58 days at full power)
Delta S41 / R351 Shields (3)     Recharge Time 351 seconds (0.4 per second)

Size 20 Decoy Launcher (8)     Decoy Size: 20    Hangar Reload 223 minutes    MF Reload 37 hours
Size 11 Missile Launcher (30.0% Reduction) (19)     Missile Size: 11    Rate of Fire 3320
Missile Fire Control FC67-R122 (3)     Range 67.2m km    Resolution 122   ECCM-1
Avtonom Ship Decoy (8)    Signature: 4000 tons    ECM-1    Size: 20
Avhustyn Anti-Ship Missile (105)    Speed: 15,491 km/s    End: 70.9m     Range: 65.9m km    WH: 7    Size: 11    TH: 51/30/15

Active Search Sensor AS71-R122 (1)     GPS 13176     Range 71.2m km    Resolution 122
Active Search Sensor AS31-R20 (1)     GPS 1440     Range 31.8m km    Resolution 20
Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  33.5m km
EM Sensor EM2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  27.4m km

Electronic Warfare Jammers:   Sensor 1    Fire Control 1    Missile 1   

[Iceranger]

I'm running multiple game start-up generations to test if NPRs can handle the new missile options and the new NPR design code. This starting design popped up from one NPR. The 173 missile launchers will probably give the player something to think about

Interesting NPR ship designs

It's great to see NPRs with fast(er) ships! I'm also curious about what the S2.5 AMM looks like and how will it perform against its own ASMs

[Droll]

I like that spoilers are also generating stronger designs, in particular the appearance of shields is very good.

I'm not completely clear on the last line of the ship designs though, does that just track the number of ECCM components sensors, fcs and missiles have?

[lumporr]

Another NPR, but with 'normal' size ships and only gas core tech. Even so, the size 11 missiles have ECCM-1, three decoys, onboard thermal sensors and a retarget capability. The AMM for this race is size 2.5 and has retarget capability. Other races have size 2 AMMs with dual warheads and size 3 with ECCM and dual warheads.

Wait, why would thermal sensors help on an ASM? Missiles can only choose a new target if they have on-board active sensors, correct? Or is it any on-board sensor, as long as the target has an active lock from any source?

[JacenHan]

I like that spoilers are also generating stronger designs, in particular the appearance of shields is very good.

I'm not completely clear on the last line of the ship designs though, does that just track the number of ECCM components sensors, fcs and missiles have?

That looks like the equivalent of the old "ECM XX" line, now that ECM is split out into multiple types (sensor jamming, FC jamming, missile jamming). This is the change note for that.

[xenoscepter]

 --- Of note, with these new Jammers, will there be Compact versions? I'm gonna go out on a limb a bit and say that the new systems will be 50 Tons (1HS) each, since all three would be equivalent to a full ECM. Will the Compact versions, if there are, be 25 Tons(0.5HS) then? Will Small Craft versions, if any, be 12.5(0.25HS) each?

[nuclearslurpee]

ship pr0nz 

Eeeexcellent. I particularly like this idea that some NPRs will use much larger ships than what we're used to, it's about time we had some diversity and also NPR designs that could stand up to our WH40K fleets. 

Wait, why would thermal sensors help on an ASM? Missiles can only choose a new target if they have on-board active sensors, correct? Or is it any on-board sensor, as long as the target has an active lock from any source?

If a missile loses an active lock, it can use thermals to acquire a new target - which is particularly good if the target is destroyed before those missiles arrive.

[Droll]

Wait, why would thermal sensors help on an ASM? Missiles can only choose a new target if they have on-board active sensors, correct? Or is it any on-board sensor, as long as the target has an active lock from any source?

If a missile loses an active lock, it can use thermals to acquire a new target - which is particularly good if the target is destroyed before those missiles arrive.

Hold on so what I understand is... in order for a missile to be launched at a target and continue tracking it needs an active lock, but if it loses the lock mid-flight it can instead use a passive thermal lock instead? At that point why not allow missile passives to just lock targets by themselves fire-and-forget style?

[kilo]

Wait, why would thermal sensors help on an ASM? Missiles can only choose a new target if they have on-board active sensors, correct? Or is it any on-board sensor, as long as the target has an active lock from any source?

If a missile loses an active lock, it can use thermals to acquire a new target - which is particularly good if the target is destroyed before those missiles arrive.

Hold on so what I understand is... in order for a missile to be launched at a target and continue tracking it needs an active lock, but if it loses the lock mid-flight it can instead use a passive thermal lock instead? At that point why not allow missile passives to just lock targets by themselves fire-and-forget style?

When you fire a missile at a target you need an active lock and it will move towards the target until it either reaches it or until your active lock is lost. In that case missiles without sensors of their own are deleted from the game. Missiles with sensors will travel towards the calculated intercept point and will attack any hostile ship they can detect.
Additionally, they can switch target to another vessel if their intended target got destroyed. This was incredibly strong in VB6, when you could launch all salvos at one target and they would switch to ship after ship. In C# all missiles that arrive in the same increment hit the destroyed ship and only subsequent missiles switch targets on their own.
On top of that, the sensors of missiles allowed you to place mine fields and shoot missiles at waypoints. If the enemy got close enough the missiles would start tracking on their own. I have not tried that in C# though.