Author Topic: Tentative Suggestions for Missile Rebalancing by Tweaking Launcher Size Rules  (Read 14836 times)

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Offline Iceranger

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For v2.20, I've removed missile agility and implemented fractional warheads.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13090.msg164041#msg164041

I understand that the point of fractional warheads is trying to give AMMs a chance to be useful when agility is removed. However, after modifying my missile optimizer and playing with the numbers a bit, I'm totally against the change of removing agility, for two reasons:

1, while the fractional warhead sizes may overcome the loss of agility for very early techs, it does not last long. For example, let's say we use 2 tiers of tech above the starting tech to design an AMM:
Warhead strength 4/MSP
Engine power 0.32/MSP
Fuel efficiency 0.8
Engine max power boost 1.5
Using a warhead of 0.05 and as short range as possible trying to get the best hit chance, the following missile is the 'optimal', with a 100% chance to hit 1880km/s.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.0000 MSP (2.5000 Tons)    Warhead: 0.0500    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuver Rating: 10
Speed: 18,800 km/s    Fuel: 18    Flight Time: 80 seconds    Range: 1.52 Mkm
Cost Per Missile: 0.48250    Development Cost: 48
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 188.0%   3k km/s 62.7%   5k km/s 37.6%   10k km/s 18.8%   20k km/s 9.4%   50k km/s 3.8%   100k km/s 1.9%

In the current version, we can have the following missile, with agility 48/MSP, also 2 tiers above the starting tech. It hits 2100km/s with a 100% chance.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.0000 MSP (2.5000 Tons)    Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuver Rating: 25
Speed: 8,400 km/s    Fuel: 19    Flight Time: 132 seconds    Range: 1.12 Mkm
Cost Per Missile: 0.75021    Development Cost: 75
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 210.0%   3k km/s 70.0%   5k km/s 42.0%   10k km/s 21.0%   20k km/s 10.5%   50k km/s 4.2%   100k km/s 2.1%

Thus, only for the 1st tier of tech the AMMs perform slightly better than the current game, afterwards, it is a straight across-board nerf. Another example at higher tech (Ion engine):
Warhead strength 4/MSP
Engine power 0.32/MSP
Fuel efficiency 0.8
Engine max power boost 1.5
Missile agility 80/MSP
No agility:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.0000 MSP (2.5000 Tons)    Warhead: 0.0504    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuver Rating: 10
Speed: 72,800 km/s    Fuel: 54    Flight Time: 14 seconds    Range: 1.02 Mkm
Cost Per Missile: 1.83260    Development Cost: 183
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 728.0%   3k km/s 242.7%   5k km/s 145.6%   10k km/s 72.8%   20k km/s 36.4%   50k km/s 14.6%   100k km/s 7.3%

Current:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.0000 MSP (2.5000 Tons)    Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuver Rating: 37
Speed: 35,200 km/s    Fuel: 79    Flight Time: 29 seconds    Range: 1.05 Mkm
Cost Per Missile: 1.66029    Development Cost: 166
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1302.4%   3k km/s 434.1%   5k km/s 260.5%   10k km/s 130.2%   20k km/s 65.1%   50k km/s 26.0%   100k km/s 13.0%
The 100% hit speed is 7280km/s vs 13024km/s, with the AMM without agility only having a 16.7% chance to destroy an S6 missile on a hit, and being more expensive compared to the current version.

One additional result: at high tech when all missiles can reach the speed cap (light speed), AMM will always have a 10% hit chance, rendering them largely useless.


2, after removing agility, missile design basically becomes 'get the highest engine power and profit' other than in some extreme cases (read, extreme long-range missiles). For example, let's say we are designing an AMM at early tech, with the following techs (1 tier above the starting tech)
Warhead strength 3/MSP
Engine power 0.25/MSP
Fuel efficiency 0.9
Engine max power boost 1.25
Using a warhead of 0.05, i.e., the smallest useful warhead for AMMs to maximize the potential to play with engine and fuel sizes. In this case, for any missiles with a range of less than 44.6Mkm (laughable extreme for early tech AMMs), the max engine power boost is the best choice.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.0000 MSP (2.5000 Tons)    Warhead: 0.0501    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuver Rating: 10
Speed: 10,200 km/s    Fuel: 433    Flight Time: 4,376 seconds    Range: 44.64 Mkm
Cost Per Missile: 0.27253    Development Cost: 27
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 102.0%   3k km/s 34.0%   5k km/s 20.4%   10k km/s 10.2%   20k km/s 5.1%   50k km/s 2.0%   100k km/s 1.0%


In the end, I'd suggest something similar to what Jorgan_CAB has mentioned, limit the agility tech to a smaller range and have a linear increase instead of completely removing it. This way AMMs can be more viable in the early game (still much worse than beam PD), while avoiding them being too powerful late game compared to beam PD. There were some numbers I crunched for an earlier similar discussion http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11904.msg140898#msg140898
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 02:24:33 PM by Iceranger »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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important and valuable analysis

I note that if we are removing Agility entirely, there is no need to maintain the base Maneuver Rating at 10; we can happily set the base rating to 20 or 25, based on what we feel would be economical to keep AMMs vs ASMs a competitive decision. I suspect the exact value for good game balance probably is going to depend on a potential ECM/ECCM rework, though.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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important and valuable analysis

I note that if we are removing Agility entirely, there is no need to maintain the base Maneuver Rating at 10; we can happily set the base rating to 20 or 25, based on what we feel would be economical to keep AMMs vs ASMs a competitive decision. I suspect the exact value for good game balance probably is going to depend on a potential ECM/ECCM rework, though.

The Maneuver Rating affects the chance to hit for all missiles, not just AMMs. Ramming uses the same calculation.
 

Offline Iceranger

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important and valuable analysis

I note that if we are removing Agility entirely, there is no need to maintain the base Maneuver Rating at 10; we can happily set the base rating to 20 or 25, based on what we feel would be economical to keep AMMs vs ASMs a competitive decision. I suspect the exact value for good game balance probably is going to depend on a potential ECM/ECCM rework, though.

Indeed, adjusting the base MR could mitigate the situation, but perhaps we will still see ineffective AMMs.

Instead of comparing the (optimal) missiles under the new mechanism against the current ones, I have done some quick napkin math to see how will missiles in general perform in the new setting.

Since the MR is fixed, higher missile speed means higher accuracy, and the accuracy is now only a function of missile speed and target speed (let's exclude E-war for now).

Speed = EP/HS*1000 km/s = (engine power per HS) * (engine HS) * (engine power multiplier) / HS * 1000 km/s = (engine power per HS) * (engine power multiplier) * (engine HS) / HS * 1000 km/s

Let's use E to denote (engine power per HS), and use some rule of thumb (engine HS)/HS values, to see how well the new missile model performs.
  • For a slow beam warship, let's assume it uses 1.2x engine power, 40% engine ratio, then its speed is 480E km/s (1.2*0.4*1000)
  • For a fast beam warship, assume it uses 1.5x engine power, 50% engine ratio, then its speed is 750E km/s (1.5*0.5*1000)
  • For a fighter, assume it uses 3x engine power, 50% engine ratio, then its speed is 1500E km/s
  • For an ASM, assume it uses 6x engine power, 60% engine ratio, then its speed is 3600E km/s
  • For an AMM, assume it uses 6x engine power, 90% engine ratio, then its speed is 5400E km/s.

Then when MR is fixed to 10, we have:
  • The ASM has a 3600/480E*10%=75% chance of hitting the slow beam ship, 48% chance of hitting the fast beam ship, 24% chance of hitting the fighter.
  • The AMM has a 112.5% chance of hitting the slow beam ship, 72% chance of hitting the fast beam ship, 36% chance of hitting the fighter. Likely the AMM won't do any damage to these ships anyway. The AMM has a 15% chance of hitting the ASM. When it does hit, it is likely to have a less than 100% chance of destroying the ASM due to having to use a smaller warhead.

And this relationship won't change much as tech level progresses. Yes, missiles can use smaller warheads to achieve the same damage, but the reduction is relatively small compared to the engine ratio used in the examples. And when we consider E-war, such saved MSP should probably be devoted to E-war components.

Thus, having a fixed MR makes missiles much less useful and there is nothing much that can be done in the design choices to mitigate this.

Edit: calculation was corrected based on nuclearslurpee's feedback.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 07:18:06 PM by Iceranger »
 

Offline Elouda

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I find outright removing agility to be unfortunate, as it offered some design choices also for offensive missiles, in balancing terminal speed vs accuracy on designs. I feel its 'MSP usage' could easily enough be explained by additional thrusters, fuel or guidance computers for more aggressive maneuvers, or some combination of them. Thus I also think adjusting the scaling and or just working to improve the mechanism would have been nice.

I do really like the fractional warhead idea though.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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  • For an ASM, assume it uses 3x engine power, 60% engine ratio, then its speed is 1800E km/s
  • For an AMM, assume it uses 3x engine power, 90% engine ratio, then its speed is 2700E km/s.

This is actually not going to give a correct comparison, because missiles will typically use much more than 3x EP modifier due to the availability of overboost (up to 6x).

In this case, if we say the ASM and AMM both use 6x boost instead of 3x, the hit rate for the AMM against the ASM does not really change, but the ASM will be twice as effective against ships in terms of hit rate (75% against slow beam ship, 48% against fast beam ship, 24% against fighter).

This means that if we push the (fixed) maneuver rating up to, say, 20, the ASM will have basically a perfect hit rate against ships (FWIW I think your rule-of-thumb designs are a bit faster than most players use, but that's not important here) while the AMM will have a hit rate of 30% and is effective at a ratio of 3.3:1 - which, for example, means that AMM defense is cost-effective against size-4 missiles as you only expend 3.3 MSP of AMMs per 4 MSP of ASMs destroyed (I think it is safe to presume that the hit/kill ratio is basically 1.0, if you've put the wrong size of warhead on your AMMs that is a separate, strategic error). At this point then the question is what options the ASM user has to regain cost parity or effectiveness which channels into the EWar discussion.

If we leave the maneuver rating at 10, then AMMs are cost-effective against size-7 or larger missiles with these numbers. In that case, however, we need to look at some practical considerations, namely ASMs will rarely use the same maximum EP modifier than AMMs do since they require a longer range than AMMs (I usually find my ASMs require 75% or 80% of the maximum EP modifier to reach my desired combat range). So in practice, AMM efficiency is not likely to be 15% but closer to ~20% which gives a ~5:1 ratio. Of course short-range ASMs using the full 6x modifier are possible but this is a tactical choice which plays more like an extended-range beam ship doctrine than traditional standoff missile warfare.

Ultimately, all of this is talking around the fact that missile warfare in Aurora is all-or-nothing - you either have enough AMMs (or beam PD) to destroy the enemy volley(s), or you don't and you take damage - we don't really have a set of mechanics for which small numbers of leakers are the norm. Fixed vs Variable Maneuver Rating does not change this fact, so we need to explore some other mechanical means of upsetting that balance (EWar rework, Jorgen's proposal about missile tracking bonus, launcher size change, etc.). The exact value of a fixed maneuver rating is only a balancing knob which we can only tune once we know what set of mechanics we are working with.

FWIW, returning to the original thread topic, I think a launcher size change could interact well here... if we set a fixed MR, then there is some ASM size breakpoint above which AMMs are cost-effective, but the ability to generate larger salvo sizes for size>1 ASMs means the cost-effective and tactically-effective (i.e., per-HS) breakpoints are in general different - meaning that a "total" AMM defense will likely be cost-effective, but a sufficiently large ASM volley which damages or destroys ships can recoup the cost in damage to the enemy's fleet rather than the cost of their missile logistics.

All this aside... I don't mind either having Agility or not. I don't find it to be interesting for gameplay, personally, but I don't care if it stays in. To me it is just a balancing knob and not an interesting feature in and of itself.
 
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Offline Iceranger

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This is actually not going to give a correct comparison, because missiles will typically use much more than 3x EP modifier due to the availability of overboost (up to 6x).

In this case, if we say the ASM and AMM both use 6x boost instead of 3x, the hit rate for the AMM against the ASM does not really change, but the ASM will be twice as effective against ships in terms of hit rate (75% against slow beam ship, 48% against fast beam ship, 24% against fighter).

Ah indeed my bad, I knew something didn't feel right!

Indeed using 6x engine power makes the ASM twice as effective, which might be OK, but the AMM hit ratio against the ASM remains the same unless the base MR is increased.

If we leave the maneuver rating at 10, then AMMs are cost-effective against size-7 or larger missiles with these numbers. In that case, however, we need to look at some practical considerations, namely ASMs will rarely use the same maximum EP modifier than AMMs do since they require a longer range than AMMs (I usually find my ASMs require 75% or 80% of the maximum EP modifier to reach my desired combat range). So in practice, AMM efficiency is not likely to be 15% but closer to ~20% which gives a ~5:1 ratio. Of course short-range ASMs using the full 6x modifier are possible but this is a tactical choice which plays more like an extended-range beam ship doctrine than traditional standoff missile warfare.

I doubt the current design method of missiles can carry over when agility is entirely removed. Long-range missiles will be much less effective compared to now, as they cannot trade size for agility to make up for the loss of accuracy due to lower speed.

Also, since AMMs will be more engine heavy with the change, their cost density will be higher than that of the ASMs. Under the current game mechanics, I routinely see my S1 AMMs cost more than 1/3 of my longer-ranged S6 ASMs (shorter-ranged ASMs tend to be more expensive), so I doubt in the new mechanism 5:1 will be anywhere close to acceptable.

Ultimately, all of this is talking around the fact that missile warfare in Aurora is all-or-nothing - you either have enough AMMs (or beam PD) to destroy the enemy volley(s), or you don't and you take damage - we don't really have a set of mechanics for which small numbers of leakers are the norm. Fixed vs Variable Maneuver Rating does not change this fact, so we need to explore some other mechanical means of upsetting that balance (EWar rework, Jorgen's proposal about missile tracking bonus, launcher size change, etc.). The exact value of a fixed maneuver rating is only a balancing knob which we can only tune once we know what set of mechanics we are working with.

As long as we are playing with random numbers (binomial distributed in the case of missile interception, to be exact), the all-or-nothing result cannot be avoided. It is basically the law of large numbers, the number of expected intercepts tends to concentrate around the expected value. And the probability of 'I brought just enough PD to shoot all down but not more' (in this case, how many leaks will be mainly determined by the variance of all the random numbers involved) is very low given how different ship designs can be. Thus when missile volleys and PD clash, it will always be all-or-nothing.

So if the goal is to alleviate the all-or-nothing behavior, we are barking at the wrong tree imo.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 07:37:43 PM by Iceranger »
 

Offline Demetrious

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In general I like area point defence as a concept and use it occasionally in my campaigns, laser weapons certainly can perform it in peer battles if you invest some efforts into it.

I've gotten good results out of it from larger (25cm and up) railguns. It can often be a better choice to fire early on an incoming salvo to ensure that the weapons have cycled again by the time the follow-up salvo is approaching closer range. More importantly, however, I think area fire will be much more useful with the introduction of laser warheads, because laser warheads will also make launcher rate-of-fire an actual design choice outside of "full-size AMM launchers always, everything else only 30% launchers to maximize salvo size." The need for maximized salvo sizes itself stems from the fact that missiles in Aurora are "dumb;" they beeline for the target without a thought as soon as they clear the tube and there's no way to delay one or two (vectoring them towards outlying steerpoints that are staggered) to ensure a simultaneous time-on-target arrival. Due to this, everything is determined by a one-time throwdown; total throw weight vs. total PD fire mustered. With laser warheads being able to attack outside of point-blank PD range - at distances that only larger, slower-cycling beam weapons (or AMMs) can effectively engage at - launcher rate-of-fire suddenly becomes significant. Ships with just a few magazine-fed launchers could do significant damage to a fleet bristling with 10cm rail and gauss that could shrug off massive salvos of size-4 missiles. This would be even more interesting if the standoff-warhead options benefited from economies-of-scale that made larger standoff warheads more powerful and/or more long-ranged for the MSP, in turn incentivizing the creation of size 2 AMMs that can engage such weapons at safe distance. While they'd consume more space in the magazines and cycle slower, they'd also be up against much smaller salvos (due to larger missile size) and the missiles would be slower. If we assume (as is common in sci-fi) a bomb-pumped x-ray laser as the default standoff warhead option, using the current damage fall-off-at-range table lasers use would make perfect sense.

In combination this would significantly change the number of variables present in missile combat. By giving missiles more than one viable method of successfully delivering damage, it gives defenders more than one defensive challenge to prepare for. If we include reworked ECM and perhaps missile sensors, I think this would result in a "decision space" large enough to be interesting, but narrow enough to be dealt with. Anyone familiar with Nebulous: Fleet Command's recent overhaul of missile combat will note some parallels there; real-world considerations were drawn on for inspiration, but simplified enough to keep the variables interesting, but manageable. In any technological epoch there's engineering considerations that constrain the design space like this; the boundaries of possibility are limited by extant technology, but there's still important trade-offs to be made within that space. So it also fits from a realism perspective.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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The need for maximized salvo sizes itself stems from the fact that missiles in Aurora are "dumb;" they beeline for the target without a thought as soon as they clear the tube and there's no way to delay one or two (vectoring them towards outlying steerpoints that are staggered) to ensure a simultaneous time-on-target arrival.

This actually used to be possible in very old VB6 versions and it was possibly the most OP thing that has ever been in the game. You can still read about this tactic in Steve or Kurt's oldest AARs for instance.

Quote
This would be even more interesting if the standoff-warhead options benefited from economies-of-scale that made larger standoff warheads more powerful and/or more long-ranged for the MSP, in turn incentivizing the creation of size 2 AMMs that can engage such weapons at safe distance.

Can you explain how this would motivate size-2 AMMs? Assuming that Steve would keep the maximum standoff of laser warheads at 5 LS (1.5m km) to be consistent with every beam weapon and BFC in the game, and knowing that current size-1 AMMs comfortably exceed 2m km range after very low tech levels, I'm not seeing the logic here.
 

Offline Iceranger

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If the goal is to alleviate the all-or-nothing behavior of the current missile-PD interaction and encourage 'regular' launchers and larger missiles, I think the launcher size idea is in a good direction. It makes creating larger salvos with larger missiles easier.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, larger salvos don't alleviate the all-or-nothing behavior. In fact, they create the problem. It's the law of large numbers working against us. Essentially, each missile-PD interaction is modeled by a dice roll with a probability p of a successful intercept, after all bonuses and penalties are applied. Adding/changing mechanisms such as ECM and tracking bonus only changes p, but not the dice roll itself.

As an example, assume on the PD side, there are n=2000 guns controlled by a BFC, each with a p=10% chance of shooting down a missile after all bonuses/penalties. Then, the number of successful interceptions is a binomial distribution B(n,p) = B(2000, 0.1). As N is large enough (there is a check for this), we can approximate this by a normal distribution N(np, np(1-p)) = N(200, 180), with mean 200 and variance 180. The mean part is easy, it means these many guns are expected to shoot down 200 missiles. The variance part can be used to determine the 3-sigma interval, where sigma^2 = 180, giving sigma~=13.4. Thus, there is a 99.8% chance that between ~160 to ~240 (200 - 3 * 13.4 to 200 + 3 * 13.4) shots are hit. That means, when the number of incoming missiles is outside 160 and 240, the result is almost determined: below 160 all will be shot down, and above 240 there must be leakers. When the number is between 160 and 240, the closer to 200 the better, there is a chance some will get through whenever you try. Given how flexible ship designs are, there is a much larger chance that a missile volley containing less than 160 or above 240 missiles, than just falls in between that interval.

There are a few ideas already came up before that, after some thought, can actually alleviate the all-or-nothing behavior, we just need to put them together so they break the law of large numbers.

The first is actually in VB6 Aurora and earlier versions of the C#, i.e., each BFC can only target one missile salvo (i.e., a group of several missiles launched by a single MFC). Of course, this does not stop a BFC from controlling 2000 guns, but it definitely discourages that since a second simultaneous salvo will completely bypass the PD guns.

On top of the first limit, I'd like to add a second constraint that each missile salvo can be only engaged by one BFC/MFC at a time.

The third is limiting how many missiles can be directed by a single MFC on the attacking side, i.e., the missile salvo size. This can be a separate tech line, going from maybe 4 up to 12, not too high so we don't trigger the law of large numbers. MFCs can be made cheaper to counterbalance this nerf, and the number of missiles guided can be chosen as a parameter when designing an MFC, where lower numbers make the MFC even cheaper. This limitation will make mass box launcher ships harder to make as more MFCs are required, but for fighters and bombers, nothing has changed.

With these changes, we are preventing the number of shots from going too high during one interception. This will significantly increase the effectiveness of the attacking missiles when the missile volley size is smaller than the defender's PD capability. Again, as ship design is flexible, there is nothing stopping people from designing massive ships with multiple BFCs each guiding 200 guns with a 10% chance to hit, trying to stop all missiles. But it is more reasonable, in the above example, to have 20 BFCs each controlling 100 guns. Of course, the attacker can always bring overwhelming firepower to saturate the PD, but let's check the cases when a smaller number of attacking missiles are used. Against 20 salvos of 4 missiles, totaling 80 missiles in a volley, each salvo actually has a 2.4% chance of some missiles getting through, whereas, in the above example, there is a 2.8E-24 chance of any missiles getting through. If those 80 missiles are grouped into 10 salvos of 8 missiles, based on the 2nd constraint above, only 10 BFC can engage. In this case, each missile salvo has a 20% chance of getting something through.

Combining this with the initial idea of missile launcher size changes (which also discourages box launchers, just we don't need to nerf the box launcher as hard), it should achieve the goal of alleviating the all-or-nothing behavior.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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I removed the requirement for a single BFC to engage a single salvo in order to prevent small craft gaining an inbuilt advantage due to their smaller salvo sizes. I don't want to get into a situation where two identical waves of missiles have different chances to penetrate defences because one is artificially divided into a larger number of small salvos.

This mechanic would lead to missile ships having more fire controls to gain that advantage, then beam ships needing to have more fire controls to handle smaller salvos, which then would make fire controls really expensive as a proportion of ship cost, leading to cost reductions in fire controls to avoid imbalance in the new paradigm of ship design and eventually we just end up back where we started.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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This mechanic would lead to missile ships having more fire controls to gain that advantage, then beam ships needing to have more fire controls to handle smaller salvos, which then would make fire controls really expensive as a proportion of ship cost, leading to cost reductions in fire controls to avoid imbalance in the new paradigm of ship design and eventually we just end up back where we started.

Basically this. In practice, if you place more limits on fire controls, you'll see designs shift to use a larger number of fire controls and fractionally fewer guns or missiles in order to get whatever is a reasonably good number of shots/AMMs per salvo. You don't upset the all-or-nothing paradigm, you just shift some percentages around a little bit.
 

Offline Iceranger

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This mechanic would lead to missile ships having more fire controls to gain that advantage, then beam ships needing to have more fire controls to handle smaller salvos, which then would make fire controls really expensive as a proportion of ship cost, leading to cost reductions in fire controls to avoid imbalance in the new paradigm of ship design and eventually we just end up back where we started.

Basically this. In practice, if you place more limits on fire controls, you'll see designs shift to use a larger number of fire controls and fractionally fewer guns or missiles in order to get whatever is a reasonably good number of shots/AMMs per salvo.

This part is correct and what I intended, the goal is to prevent reaching the place where the law of large numbers applies. It is the underlying culprit of the all-or-nothing-ness. With missile interceptions limited to a smaller number of guns against a smaller number of missiles, it is more likely that a smaller volley will get through, or a larger volley will be blocked.

If the BFCs are too expensive, we can reduce their cost(at least for the tracking speed multiplier part).

You don't upset the all-or-nothing paradigm, you just shift some percentages around a little bit.

On the contrary, I am exactly upset the all-or-nothing paradigm mathematically, preventing the law of large numbers from working against us. You can never prevent the 'all' side as there is nothing to prevent bringing an overwhelming force. But the 'nothing' side can be alleviated based on my math.

As long as the number of shots being large, however the to-hit probability change is just shifting percentages around. Changing E-war, adding tracking bonuses, and adding stand-off warheads all fall into this category in the end.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 10:19:52 AM by Iceranger »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee (OP)

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Basically this. In practice, if you place more limits on fire controls, you'll see designs shift to use a larger number of fire controls and fractionally fewer guns or missiles in order to get whatever is a reasonably good number of shots/AMMs per salvo.

This part is correct and what I intended, the goal is to prevent reaching the place where the law of large numbers applies. It is the underlying culprit of the all-or-nothing-ness. With missile interceptions limited to a smaller number of guns against a smaller number of missiles, it is more likely that a smaller volley will get through, or a larger volley will be blocked.
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I don't think this will happen. The current mechanics are not "one weapon per missile salvo" or some similar even spread; rather, a fleet in final fire mode will repeatedly target one missile salvo at a time until it is gone, then move on to the next salvo, and so on - one salvo at a time.

In the proposed case, assuming we carry over the same mechanics, the only thing that changes here is that we fire one BFC at a time instead of one weapon at a time, and the natural adjustment to this is that players will use more BFCs and, due to conservation of tonnage/BP, fractionally fewer weapons.

FWIW, I in practice already use basically this proposed change for my ASMs, trying to balance launchers and MFCs to get 4-5 missiles per salvo, specifically because I try to take advantage of the mechanics to force enemy PD weapons to waste shots against dead salvos (not my proudest moment, I admit), even with box launcher-based ships. Nothing about this somehow precludes the all-or-nothing nature of PD, it just shifts the balancing points around.

Also FWIW, I don't think trying to eliminate the all-or-nothing nature is a productive direction for missile balance. Not only is it (IMO) pretty much baked into the mechanics of Aurora (to change this requires reframing the entire PD mechanics into a shot-per-missile framework instead of the current missiles-per-shot system), but Aurora is really based around the strategic more than tactical game, so in the big picture missile warfare is really about creating the strategic conditions to destroy the enemy with overwhelming firepower. The problem in this picture is that the tactical mechanics push towards a pretty obvious optimum (box launchers + smaller missiles) to create those strategic conditions and overwhelm enemy PD - what we'd like to accomplish is creating more viable routes to establishing overwhelming strategic firepower so that missiles can be an interesting and competitive alternative to beam weapons without having to resort to box launcher-only doctrines.

All this said, I'm not opposed to the proposed fire control changes as I do think they're more interesting and realistic (and do help to shift away from box launcher porcupines a little bit). I just don't think framing it as a magic bullet to change the game's math is correct.

Also FWIW:
I removed the requirement for a single BFC to engage a single salvo in order to prevent small craft gaining an inbuilt advantage due to their smaller salvo sizes. I don't want to get into a situation where two identical waves of missiles have different chances to penetrate defences because one is artificially divided into a larger number of small salvos.

I don't necessarily see this as a problem. I always imagine the individual salvos as groups of missiles flying in tight formation slaved to a single MFC, so separate salvos might be separated by much larger distances (albeit still much smaller than 1,000 km, still) to function as basically separate targets. So having mechanics which depend on the salvo (i.e. "formation") size makes sense to me.
 

Offline TurielD

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I removed the requirement for a single BFC to engage a single salvo in order to prevent small craft gaining an inbuilt advantage due to their smaller salvo sizes. I don't want to get into a situation where two identical waves of missiles have different chances to penetrate defences because one is artificially divided into a larger number of small salvos.

That's not artificial - those missiles are being independently controlled to approach from different angles or perform different evasive maneuvers or what have you. A fire control isn't just a 'launch' button, its a targeting and processing computer.
If someone dedicates more resources to a functionality, let them have that functionality be enhanced.

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This mechanic would lead to missile ships having more fire controls to gain that advantage, then beam ships needing to have more fire controls to handle smaller salvos, which then would make fire controls really expensive as a proportion of ship cost,

This sounds like an interesting design choice - perhaps with a dedicated 'number of simultaneous targetable salvos' modifier? Standard 2-5 per FC or some such, or perhaps start at 2 for a standard BFC, and be affected by the TrackingSpeed multiplier.

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leading to cost reductions in fire controls to avoid imbalance in the new paradigm of ship design and eventually we just end up back where we started.

What? Why would there be cost reductions?
We're talking about how much better beams are than missiles, but it seems like every time something is suggested that might make missiles worthwhile there's an automatic jump to buff beams to compensate.


Quote from: Iceranger
On the contrary, I am exactly upset the all-or-nothing paradigm mathematically, preventing the law of large numbers from working against us. You can never prevent the 'all' side as there is nothing to prevent bringing an overwhelming force. But the 'nothing' side can be alleviated based on my math.

I'm with Iceranger on this, I think we're looking at this wrong. Like the OP stated: small waves are pointless, so nobody uses them. But if we tone down how all-or-nothing *PD* is, we might see them used more.

If someone wants a mega-wave of missiles, they'll want to have as few FCs as possible to leave space for missiles, but it could also be viable to field half as many missiles with lots of FC in order to overwhelm enemy tracking.