Author Topic: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines  (Read 3812 times)

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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2024, 02:33:12 AM »
3) Dividends replaced by an admin overhead that increases in percentage terms based on the number of ships.
Wouldn't this just leads to more shipping lines instead if larger ones are punished?
(unless you with "number of ships" mean the total number of civilian shipping in the empire)
 

Offline Kiero

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2024, 09:23:42 AM »
Maybe some kind of Cargo / Passangers licence system (that CLS would need to buy), overall (Cargo and Passangers separately) and/or for a specific system?

or
CLS shipyards licence - how many slipways they can have and what ship size they can build?
This one is more complex to predict long therm effects.

That would give CSL some other way of spending money, therefore limit their growth.

Licence would be on overall tonage of CSL for Cargo and Passanger separately and size of a ships allowed in to a system?

Edit: system licence when set up high might result in small high speed luxury passanger ships that would have high cost to produce.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 09:38:09 AM by Kiero »
 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2024, 04:15:41 PM »
I'd be interested in seeing civs build more expensive ships, and be reactive to what is going on in the empire, so if Raiders are popping up, maybe they build a light escort or armed freighter, if your empire is doing a lot of terraforming perhaps building those.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2024, 03:25:43 AM »
I'd be interested in seeing civs build more expensive ships, and be reactive to what is going on in the empire, so if Raiders are popping up, maybe they build a light escort or armed freighter, if your empire is doing a lot of terraforming perhaps building those.

I think it's still the military job to keep enemies at bay. There could be many debates (in fact there were already) made over Civvies and Commercial ships being allowed to a small firepower: some suggested a percentage of the tonnage, some others only small calibre weapons, and others were more radical. In the end, it was agreed by most (Steve  ;D )that this part works well as it is.

Revamping Civvies is welcome though, since there were issues with them in VB6 that were only partially solved by the C# version, but I guess nobody is after a complete makeover, at least not at this stage.

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2024, 07:00:11 AM »
I get that armed civilians would give you that East India Company vibe but for any other type of setting, it would not fit at all. Airlines do not operate fighter jets and Maersk does not own any battleships. I'm strongly against giving civilians the ability to build armed escorts or to put weapons on commercial designs or civilian ships.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2024, 08:25:59 AM »
I get that armed civilians would give you that East India Company vibe but for any other type of setting, it would not fit at all. Airlines do not operate fighter jets and Maersk does not own any battleships. I'm strongly against giving civilians the ability to build armed escorts or to put weapons on commercial designs or civilian ships.

Beyond this, it also would not work very well for gameplay. If the civilian ship armaments are not very good, then they're basically useless and just a waste of civilian ships. If the armaments are actually useful, then there's no real need to defend civilians from Raiders if they can do it themselves, so a key new area of gameplay is basically trivialized. Probably best not to do that...
 

Offline nakorkren

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2024, 11:31:50 AM »
I agree that the logical way to handle that is with an organic constraint, not a hard limit. My suggestions in rank order:

A. Implement a maintenance cost and track it for each CSL ship-type based on average ship age. Make the decision to retire ships based on the ship-type's profitability (income earned by the ship-type minus cost to build minus accrued maintenance cost). Once a shipping line reaches a certain age (10 years? 20 years?) start check annually whether each ship-type profitability is above a certain level act accordingly. This will naturally cycle out older ships and reduce overcapacity of specific ship-types (because idle ships cost maintenance and earn nothing, so they'll eventually be retired), with very limited computational load.

B. Allow the player to determine (on the wealth tab) how much to tax colonist ship tonnage and cargo ship tonnage (individually). This would give players the flexibility to encourage or discourage growth by giving the CSLs more or less income and hence driving growth (and/or contraction if idea A were implemented). This would only require adding two numeric fields on the wealth tab, so hopefully minimal programming work.

C. Can CSLs please be allowed to move minerals based on mineral reserve targets? Moving minerals around manually is one of my least favorite tasks, as it's pure drudge work on a repeating basis that adds little to nothing to enjoyment of the game.

D. Very strongly support the previously mentioned idea of getting more granular colony population controls. Some ideas:
D1. Ability to set TRANSPORTATION target, as in "transport 1m people here" (vs "bring people here until it hits 1M"), because then you don't risk massively overpopulating smaller colonies if your civilian lift capacity is large
D2. Ability to set a min/max target transportation RATE per year, as in "transport 1M people here per year" or "Take no more than 5m people from Earth per year"

I think these accomplish numbers 2, 3, and 5 from Steve's draft list of items in a more organic fashion, and items 1 and 4 could still make sense, although 4 is partly met by idea B.

From Steve
1) Payment based on distance in km, not transits
2) Fewer colony ships as a percentage of total ships, although perhaps not until 6+ ships built. I might also make the choice of new ship dependent on which ones are being used.
3) Dividends replaced by an admin overhead that increases in percentage terms based on the number of ships.
4) Payments affected by racial wealth multiplier
5) Have a simple retirement limit, such as 20 years, so that new ships are cycled in.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 11:34:49 AM by nakorkren »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2024, 11:34:31 AM »
I've taken on board comments from various people about more organic ways to control shipping line growth. Below are the changes. Everything is already coded and working.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg169793#msg169793
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2024, 11:35:27 AM »
2. Allow the player to determine (on the wealth tab) how much to tax colonist ship tonnage and cargo ship tonnage (individually). This would give players the flexibility to encourage or discourage growth by giving the CSLs more or less income and hence driving growth (and/or contraction if idea 1 were implemented). This would only require adding two numeric fields on the wealth tab, so hopefully minimal programming work.

Check the update I just posted :)

There was a bit more work involved though than just adding the extra UI elements.
 

Offline nakorkren

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2024, 11:36:14 AM »
DRAT, I was too slow!

You know what though, while I liked my ideas, I'll take super-fast game updates from Steve over my specific ideas any day.
 

Offline nakorkren

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2024, 11:52:35 AM »
Interesting changes! Not sure if I should continue discussing here, or move to the change discussion thread, but since we're here...

Will we still be able to set colonies as source or destination or stable?

Also, would it be possible to set taxation on shipping to be negative i.e. to offer incentives to grow their fleet, particularly early on?

Lastly, the changes don't seem to address the balance between colony and cargo ships. Would it be possible to set that taxation on a per type basis? Or is there some other way that balance has/will be adjusted?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2024, 01:00:09 PM »
Interesting changes! Not sure if I should continue discussing here, or move to the change discussion thread, but since we're here...

Will we still be able to set colonies as source or destination or stable?

Also, would it be possible to set taxation on shipping to be negative i.e. to offer incentives to grow their fleet, particularly early on?

Lastly, the changes don't seem to address the balance between colony and cargo ships. Would it be possible to set that taxation on a per type basis? Or is there some other way that balance has/will be adjusted?

Source, destination, stable still work as before, but destination is overridden if pressure is 10+

I don't want to go down the subsidize route again, as that could make the situation worse.

I am going to also add some changes to how civs decide what to build, based more on what is needed, but haven't got around to that yet.
 
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Offline Lastek

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2024, 08:46:51 AM »
First of all - all the changes look great!

At the topic of civilian shipping lines (hope I'm not late to the party), would it be possible to organise the civilian ships into some kind of convoys? Right now every ship is in its own fleet, which leads to tens if not hundreds of civilian fleets flying around.  This would declutter the map while still being able to see the CIVs on screen and could potentially limit the late game lag, since the civilian AI would calculate the decisions for lower number of fleets.

 

Offline Warer

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2024, 09:43:55 AM »
Really love the shipping line changes!
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2024, 10:11:58 AM »
These changes are so great they broke the forums for days with their sheer awesomeness.
 
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