Input needed on new generation of carrier

[Montagsterner (OP)]

Happy new year everyone! I recently picked up Aurora again and am now finishing my next generation of carrier to defend my colonies from an aggressive NPR that has already invaded an important world (we took it back). The NPR seems to be a tech level higher than me right now which has caused some problems in our last fleet engagement. The new Gladius Strike Carrier will hopefully rectify the imbalance by incorporating Ion tech. Because it is unclear whether we are actually catching up with the NPR tech-wise, the carrier is intended to be relatively future-proof by placing an emphasis on speed and situational awareness + stand-off strike. It will be accompanied by smaller beam warships to provide beam-based PD and a fast tanker for logistics. Based on my current shipyard capacity, the strike group will likely consist of 2x Gladius carriers, 3x beam warships and a fast tanker. Would love to get some feedback on this combat philosophy and the designs!

Gladius Strike Carrier
The carrier design below is intended to strike from standoff distance without exposing the carrier's position to the enemy. For fleet defence it is equipped with the SA-3 Goa AMM, beam PD will be provided by its escort. The Pyrrhus scout recon craft will provide situational awareness and targeting information to the strike package of Kris bombers. It is also equipped with passive sensors to maximize tactical surprise as well as double box launchers for a scout missile equipped with thermal sensors, mostly for intelligence purposes. The Kris Bomber prioritizes firepower over speed and range, being armed with two size 8 box launchers for the SS-8 Sasin AShM. This is my first game with maintenance enabled so I'm still figuring out those mechanics and haven't added MSP storage to the carrier yet since I am a bit confused where the huge maintenance costs are coming from.

Gladius class Strike Carrier (P)      24.838 tons       611 Crew       4.301.4 BP       TCS 497    TH 4.800    EM 0
9662 km/s      Armour 4-75       Shields 0-0       HTK 101      Sensors 6/16/0/0      DCR 1-0      PPV 24
Maint Life 0.00 Years     MSP 108    AFR 4935%    IFR 68.5%    1YR 22.133    5YR 332.002    Max Repair 1.200 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 5.000 tons     Magazine 1.010 / 0   
Kapitein ter Zee     Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 100    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP2400.00 (2)    Power 4800    Fuel Use 189.29%    Signature 2400    Explosion 24%
Fuel Capacity 3.029.000 Litres    Range 11.6 billion km (13 days at full power)
Refuelling Capability: 60.000 litres per hour     Complete Refuel 50 hours

Size 2.0 Missile Launcher (12)     Missile Size: 2    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC17-R1 (4)     Range 17.1m km    Resolution 1   ECCM-2

Active Search Sensor AS17-R1 (1)     GPS 84     Range 17.1m km    MCR 1.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH0.8-6.4 (1)     Sensitivity 6.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  20m km
EM Sensor EM1.5-16.5 (1)     Sensitivity 16.5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  32.1m km

Electronic Warfare Jammers:   Sensor 1    Fire Control 1    Missile 2   

Strike Group
16x Kris Block I Bomber   Speed: 11889 km/s    Size: 4.99
2x Pyrrhus Block I Recon Craft   Speed: 12515 km/s    Size: 9.99

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Carrier for auto-assignment purposes

********

Pyrrhus Block I Recon Craft
Pyrrhus Block I class Recon Craft (P)      500 tons       6 Crew       142.7 BP       TCS 10    TH 125    EM 0
12515 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 4/16/0/0      DCR 0-0      PPV 0.3
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 99%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 25    5YR 382    Max Repair 62.5 MSP
Magazine 2 / 0   
Kapitein-luitenant ter Zee     Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 5.1 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP125.00 (1)    Power 125    Fuel Use 937.50%    Signature 125    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 56.000 Litres    Range 2.15 billion km (47 hours at full power)

Size 1 Box Launcher (2)     Missile Size: 1    Hangar Reload 50 minutes    MF Reload 8 hours
Missile Fire Control FC13-R16 (1)     Range 13.7m km    Resolution 16   ECCM-2

Active Search Sensor AS49-R80 (1)     GPS 3024     Range 49.6m km    Resolution 80
EM Sensor EM1.5-16.5 (1)     Sensitivity 16.5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  32.1m km
Thermal Sensor TH0.5-4.0 (1)     Sensitivity 4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15.8m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes

******

Kris Block I Bomber
Kris Block I class Bomber (P)      250 tons       1 Crew       46.6 BP       TCS 5    TH 59    EM 0
11889 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0-0      PPV 2.4
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 49%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 4    5YR 64    Max Repair 29.7 MSP
Magazine 16 / 0   
Kapitein-luitenant ter Zee     Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP59.38 (1)    Power 59.4    Fuel Use 1360.27%    Signature 59.38    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 13.000 Litres    Range 0.69 billion km (16 hours at full power)

Size 8.00 Box Launcher (2)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Missile Fire Control FC13-R16 (1)     Range 13.7m km    Resolution 16   ECCM-2

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes


*****
SS-8 Sasin AShM
Missile Size: 8.0 MSP  (20.00 Tons)     Warhead: 12.0    Radiation Damage: 12.0
Speed: 29.700 km/s     Fuel: 750     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 5.55m km
Decoys: 2 ECM-1     Retarget Capable
Cost Per Missile: 11.44     Development Cost: 534
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 297%   3k km/s 99%   5k km/s 59.4%   10k km/s 29.7%

Materials Required
Corbomite  2
Tritanium  3.0
Boronide  2.97
Uridium  0.5
Gallicite  2.97
Fuel:  750


*****
SA-3 Goa AMM
Missile Size: 2.00 MSP  (5.000 Tons)     Warhead: 0.5    Radiation Damage: 0.5
Speed: 42.200 km/s     Fuel: 125     Flight Time: 52.2 seconds     Range: 2.202.840 km
Retarget Capable
Cost Per Missile: 2.735     Development Cost: 261
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 422%   3k km/s 140.7%   5k km/s 84.4%   10k km/s 42.2%

Materials Required
Tritanium  0.125
Boronide  1.055
Uridium  0.5
Gallicite  1.055
Fuel:  125

[alex_brunius]

Some basics.

- Your Maint. Life is 0.00 years. This is the reason for the huge MSP costs you need to add engineering spaces to the design.
- Normally the point of making a Carrier is to have it be significantly slower than it's strike group and with much more fuel efficient engines so that you gain strategic range, but still can use the fighters high speed for tactical advantage near the enemy without wasting fuel on getting most of the way there. With so relatively similar speeds on CV and FTR your just wasting tonnage by not putting the weapons the strike group has directly on the Carrier instead (making it a Missile warship significantly more potent than the strike group).
- Having an AMM Missile FC with 17m range is a bit overkill when you have AMMs with 2m range IMO. 14m for ASM FC with 5m range on missile a bit less so (future proofing) but still
- What is the reason why the resoluton of your FTR Sensors and FC doesn't match? I like to keep them similar (and also prefer to keep resolution lower on my FTR sensors to not give them away as easily and to detect threats like missiles or enemy fighters further out).

[GrandNord]

In addition to what was already said I think you should increase your bomber's range. One really important point about a carriers' safety is to make sure it's not detected, because if anything catches up to it it's probably going down (also why I generally don't put armor on them, until 2.6 where NPR will get fighters at least), so you want to attack from far away generally or at least have the option to do so.

Your bombers' range is basically the zone of control of your carrier and if their range is low you will miss attack opportunities. You might say you can chase with your (very fast) carrier, but with 10bn km range itself it will kind of be a sitting duck without a constant tanker (itself much slower than it normally) complement and will constantly run out of fuel. You should really reduce its speed.

10bn km is basically just system range, you might be able to move one or two systems over maximum without tankers but you won't be able to do much after.

By Nuclear gas core or Ion drive tech I generally make sure to have around 2bn km of range on my bombers and between 20 and 40bn km on my carriers. 0.7bn km is more appropriate for something like an interceptor or a more defensive fighter.


Also, did you put a refueling system in the carrier? You don't need it, crafts in hangars get refuelled without a refueling system. They are only useful for tankers to transfer fuel between them and other ships.

[Ragnarsson]

I noticed what may be an immense problem - what is your decimal separator, a comma or a period?

I can see several instances where it might be either. For example, fuel capacity (3.029.000 Litres) where I'd expect commas, but things like maintenance life (0.00 Years) show the expected period.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

For such a small carrier, you either get little actual carrier features (hangar + fuel + ammo storage + msp), or have to cut everything else and rely on escorting ships. This is why I'd suggest:

- cut AMMs/MFC,
- cut all jammers out,
- cut all sensors out,
- cut armour to 1.

But if you don't want to cut that many things for whatever reason, I'd go for moderate optimization alternative:

- reduce AMM MFC to x1 instead of x4, and x2-4 launchers,
- cut Fire Control jammer (carriers should not be in enemy beam range),
- cut armour to 1 or 2.

After you get some free tonnage to spare, you should ask yourself - do you really need to have 9662 km/s speed? I'd go for MAX_ENEMY_SPEED + 100-200 km/s. "Future proofing" more is bad idea IMO and I'd rather lose a carrier in combat and build another one (especially when it comes to such small carriers) than use highly inefficient one in the first place. You're using 240% engines and that's guzzling a lot of fuel you may not be able to sustain production of in the future. And that's not how to future proof your navy. You can build new ships if you lose some, but you can't produce more fuel than you can get Sorium.

Next, like other have already said, you really have to have MSP and engineering on the carrier, I'd guess 3-5K MSP, but you should consider maintenance life readout first. At least 12 months, preferably x1.5-2 deployment time. You should not build combat ships without MSP unless these are small fighters with limited deployment time.

Second improvement would be to use free tonnage for more hangar space and get some more scouts. You can't attack what you can't see, and I'd go for a bit more.

Third improvement I'd suggest is to build Size 16 to Size 20 ASM for your bombers, if you're facing big, heavily armoured enemy ships. Putting 4-6 decoys, ECCM, retargeting (very important), and as heavy payload as possible (somewhere between 25 and 36 strength should be doable). This would make dealing with heavy armoured ships much much easier due to single hit damage penetration and possible shock damage (that ignores armour). 

[alex_brunius]

I can also add another more design philosophy point.

Carriers are by their very nature already "Futureproof" because you can swap out the fighters in their hangar to new Generations. So you don't really need to focus on the other components. A larger hangar to carry more of those fighters would serve you much better to both increase current generation strike capabilities, and futureproofing it's future capability to carry a large flexible strikegroup however it might look depending on your future needs.

Using just 5000 of 25000 ton (20%) for Hangar space is pretty low for a Carrier. I normally try to aim somewhere between 33-40% or even higher for slower Escort/Support Carrier.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

Oh, two more things. You said you have fast tankers. That means you don't need a refueling module on a carrier. Another thing is, do you need a jump engine on a carrier? Or do you use jump tenders or other combat ships instead?

[Flame_Draken]

I'll chime in a bit as well with my own experience with carrier operations as well since it looks like you are in a similar situation when I had to design my first carrier for my current game at what looks to be a similar tech level.

Note this is based off of V2.0X as I haven't dived into the newest version (still waiting to see if the new patch is coming out soon), but some things should still apply or can be adapted.

First, my carrier design and strike wing as comparison.  I'll leave out the missiles as the mechanics have changed massively between versions.  Also, the designs shown here are around 50 in-game years and 1.5 irl years behind from where my game save is currently, errors were discovered, corrected and newer designs were brought into service since.

Argus class Light Carrier      25,000 tons       356 Crew       2,792.5 BP       TCS 500    TH 1,000    EM 0
2000 km/s      Armour 3-76       Shields 0-0       HTK 124      Sensors 11/11/0/0      DCR 14      PPV 0
Maint Life 2.07 Years     MSP 977    AFR 357%    IFR 5.0%    1YR 304    5YR 4,553    Max Repair 125 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 12,000 tons     Magazine 720   
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   ENG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 240    Morale Check Required   

Myerson & Micheli Ion Drive  EP250.00 (4)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 42.43%    Signature 250    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 2,061,000 Litres    Range 35 billion km (202 days at full power)

Alamillo Weapon Systems CIWS-120 (2x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12,000 km/s     ROF 5       
Mk II-C Fighter ASM (360)    Speed: 24,400 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 1.2m km    WH: 5    Size: 2    TH: 162/97/48

Domeier-Kirch Warning & Control Active Search Sensor AS39-R100 (1)     GPS 2100     Range 39.8m km    Resolution 100
Domeier-Kirch Warning & Control EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km
Domeier-Kirch Warning & Control Thermal Sensor TH1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

Strike Group
20x F-1C Eagle Fighter   Speed: 12517 km/s    Size: 4.99
24x FB-2D Viper Fighter-bomber   Speed: 12546 km/s    Size: 4.98
4x FS-3A Bat Fighter-Scout   Speed: 12546 km/s    Size: 4.98

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Carrier for auto-assignment purposes

--

F-1C Eagle class Fighter      250 tons       2 Crew       53.5 BP       TCS 5    TH 63    EM 0
12517 km/s      Armour 3-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 2      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.5
Maint Life 7.93 Years     MSP 13    AFR 5%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 6    Max Repair 31.25 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 7.1 days    Morale Check Required   

Myerson & Micheli Ion Drive  EP62.50 (1)    Power 62.5    Fuel Use 1325.83%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 67,000 Litres    Range 3.6 billion km (3 days at full power)

Delahoya-Youell Gauss Cannon R400-8.00 (1x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 15,000 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 8.00%     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Burin Electronic Systems Beam Fire Control R45-TS2000 (SW) (1)     Max Range: 44,800 km   TS: 2,000 km/s     39 28 17 5 0 0 0 0 0 0

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes

--

FB-2D Viper class Fighter-bomber      250 tons       2 Crew       52 BP       TCS 5    TH 63    EM 0
12546 km/s      Armour 3-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 2      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.6
Maint Life 8.09 Years     MSP 13    AFR 5%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 31.25 MSP
Magazine 4   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 11.1 days    Morale Check Required   

Myerson & Micheli Ion Drive  EP62.50 (1)    Power 62.5    Fuel Use 1325.83%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 56,000 Litres    Range 3.05 billion km (67 hours at full power)

Size 2.0 Box Launcher (2)     Missile Size: 2    Hangar Reload 70 minutes    MF Reload 11 hours
Carullo-Huver Missile Fire Control FC16-R100 (1)     Range 16.2m km    Resolution 100
Mk II-C Fighter ASM (360)    Speed: 24,400 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 1.2m km    WH: 5    Size: 2    TH: 162/97/48

Wohlers-Reiley Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (1)     GPS 3     Range 2.3m km    MCR 208.1k km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes

--

FS-3A Bat class Fighter-Scout      250 tons       2 Crew       54.2 BP       TCS 5    TH 63    EM 0
12546 km/s      Armour 3-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 2      Sensors 1/1/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.3
Maint Life 8.69 Years     MSP 13    AFR 5%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 31.25 MSP
Magazine 2   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 7.1 days    Morale Check Required   

Myerson & Micheli Ion Drive  EP62.50 (1)    Power 62.5    Fuel Use 1325.83%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 61,000 Litres    Range 3.3 billion km (3 days at full power)

Size 2.0 Box Launcher (1)     Missile Size: 2    Hangar Reload 70 minutes    MF Reload 11 hours
Stengel Sensor Systems Missile Fire Control FC5-R1 (1)     Range 5.4m km    Resolution 1
Mk II-C Fighter ASM (1)    Speed: 24,400 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 1.2m km    WH: 5    Size: 2    TH: 162/97/48

Wohlers-Reiley Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (1)     GPS 3     Range 2.3m km    MCR 208.1k km    Resolution 1
Coltman Electronic Systems Thermal Sensor TH0.1-1.1 (1)     Sensitivity 1.1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8.3m km
Coltman Electronic Systems EM Sensor EM0.1-1.1 (1)     Sensitivity 1.1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8.3m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes

--

Now diving right in, I saw my fighter wings doing two separate things, the beam fighters acting as interceptors against enemy attacks, escorts for my fighter bombers and finally finishing off any crippled enemy ships.  The bombers were there to deliver ranged attacks against enemy ships and perform long range missile defense if necessary.  The armor on the fighters was intended to make it harder for any 10cm laser equipped escorts from one-shotting my fighters at close range and allowed the testing of the power and range of the weapons on unknown classes.

I saw the carriers themselves as belonging nowhere near combat and was (and still am) willing to sacrifice my fighters to keep the carrier safe from harm.  The 3b km range of my fighters allow my carrier to launch from well outside the known sensor range of my enemy ships and be able to throw in a dogleg into any inbound or outbound strikes for further obscuring of the fighter origins.

-

If we use my carrier as a basis, then it can have two squadrons of 20 (total 40) of your bombers with four of your scout aircraft, allowing an increase of 28 bombers and 2 scouts.  An alternative is to modify my fighter-bomber to carry 1 Size-8 box launcher (dropping Armor to 1 and replacing the Size-2 box launchers) instead of your bombers.  This cuts down on the number of missiles from 80 to 40 but is still greater than the 32 that your wing can throw from your carrier.

Modifications done to my carrier can be done to raise its speed.  Dropping the CIWS (useless in 2.51), some fuel, and the hanger bay to 9000 tons allows the doubling of engine space and using 1500 ep, 150% boosted ion engines allow the new design to go at 6000 km/s while still having a range of over 20b km and able to carry 32 bombers and 2 scouts.

Using your bomber, you will have a larger strike wing while also retaining some speed and have a greater cruising range using this design while switching over to my modified fighter allows you to have the same number of missiles able to be launched farther from the carrier but at the cost of doubling the craft (and associated costs) to do so.

-

An alternative to the above suggestions is to have a small fighter tanker assigned as part of the carrier wing.  Below is my first such design.  I need multiple of these for my fighter operations, but a single tanker can double your fighter strike range if you can preposition it.  You would need to drop one of the scouts or two of your bombers to carry the tanker in your carrier.

K-1A Dove class Strike Craft Tanker      500 tons       4 Crew       45.4 BP       TCS 10    TH 40    EM 0
4002 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 1/1/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 2.59 Years     MSP 5    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 1    5YR 16    Max Repair 20 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Wolsey Aero Engines Magnetic Fusion Drive  EP40.00 (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 67.08%    Signature 40    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 301,000 Litres    Range 161.6 billion km (467 days at full power)
Refuelling Capability: 10,000 litres per hour     Complete Refuel 30 hours

Hendershott-Dorsch Sensor Systems Active Search Sensor AS16-R100 (1)     GPS 280     Range 16.4m km    Resolution 100
Asta Electronic Systems Thermal Sensor TH0.1-1.4 (1)     Sensitivity 1.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  9.4m km
Gitto Warning & Control EM Sensor EM0.1-1.4 (1)     Sensitivity 1.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  9.4m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a None for auto-assignment purposes

Checking the math, a modified version of the tanker is able to fully refuel a 16 strong strike of your bombers out of its reserves and still have 13b km in range if using a 60ep, 240% boosted ion engine while pushing the tanker up to 6000k km/s.  It would take over 20 hours to finish refueling your fighters, but it is an option for a long-range strike.

[Montagsterner (OP)]

These are all very good points, thank you! The carrier's speed is indeed overkill, so I'm aiming quite a bit lower now which will free up more payload capacity. Not being tied to the idea of a 10k/s ship really gives a lot more flexibility to the whole design. The bombers will also be a bit slower to give them more range as mentioned.
A few answers to various points made:"
- The bomber FCR resolution didn't match the active sensor resolution because there's a specific NPR FAC class that I wanted to be able to engage with the bombers without getting too close. Since the low resolution gave the FCR good enough range against larger vessels anyways, I decided to just lower it. The FACs can be detected at sufficient range with thermal sensors for it to not matter too much.
- As for the maintenance issue, I have no idea where the engineering spaces went but have added them now. Mystery solved!
-The carriers had a refuelling system because I thought it was needed to even be able to refuel from tankers in deep space.
- I have jump tenders for to cross jump points.
- The idea of a dedicated fighter tanker is very interesting, I'll use it going forward.