Author Topic: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?  (Read 4582 times)

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Offline Drgong

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2016, 11:54:20 PM »
I would just say it wouldn't be a bad thing to add if it was outside of the player control.

For example,you watch your exploring ship getting hit, its has no weapons, you about to say "Yep, he dead"

Suddenly the message in the log appears

TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE!

And suddenly your ship rams something to go out in style.

would make a great role playing moment.

Sorry for the necro
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Offline Kytuzian

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2016, 07:01:15 PM »
I don't like that players can't ram and that NPR's can. If we're all agreed that it'd be too exploitable for players to be able to ram, I'd prefer removing the NPR's ability to ram as well--I don't think it really adds that much to the game.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2016, 07:25:31 PM »
I don't like that players can't ram and that NPR's can. If we're all agreed that it'd be too exploitable for players to be able to ram, I'd prefer removing the NPR's ability to ram as well--I don't think it really adds that much to the game.
I'm in agreement. If this could really possibly leave NPR ships too defenseless, then all you'd have to do to fix it is make sure all NPR ships except for specialized FAC or smaller such vessels are equipped with a single, armored, turreted laser or particle beam or railgun or something. Maybe even plasma carronade.
That way you can expect depleted missile ships or carriers to at least pose a measurable threat when out of ammo/parasites, without turning them into a supervessel-ending KKV supertorpedo that can engage from rather arbritrary ranges (why oh why is a ship with lower speed and worse initiative interception rating able to ram-engage a ship that should be able to kite it out? Argh)
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2016, 10:07:36 PM »
I think ramming should be limited to he spoiler races, after all ramming is basically a naval tantrum, a game spoiler if you will.
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Offline Thundercraft

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2016, 10:06:43 AM »
I did not expect this thread to still be going.

But it is interesting how players are divided on this. Some are arguing that ramming should never be allowed because it is too exploitable, while others argue that it should be allowed as long as it is nerfed so as to be difficult to exploit. Some agree that it is unfair that NPRs can ram when players can not, but insist, instead, that ramming be removed entirely - even by NPRs.

Nah.  Taking control away from players, even when logical roleplay wise is the height of bad video game design.

Really, if you're afraid of exploits, make ramming less powerful and more damaging to the attacker than to the defender (lots of shock damage?).  Ramming shouldn't be something you survive, and only a desperation mode.

I agree. Absolutely. Some players might like such a mechanic where ramming would randomly initiate without player control. But the rest of us would hate such a system.

It does seem, though, that most of us can agree that ramming would have great roleplaying potential.

And, as I wrote some time ago: I think it would be difficult to exploit if the player could only issue a ram if the ship has taken a lot of damage and/or it originally had weapons, but it now has nothing left.

Or, as others have suggested, one could make it an SM-only option. I don't see how anyone can complain about it being SM-only, because we can already use SM mode to play god with our game.
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Offline Xkill

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2016, 01:32:21 PM »
Frankly, I feel this whole exploit discussion to be misguided. Exploits from a player's perspective only have an effect if the player chooses to use them. Worrying how something is or isn't exploity, and curtailing, cutting or not implementing features that could be good for gameplay, based on that, is a waste of dev time.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 03:47:13 PM »
I did not expect this thread to still be going.

But it is interesting how players are divided on this. Some are arguing that ramming should never be allowed because it is too exploitable, while others argue that it should be allowed as long as it is nerfed so as to be difficult to exploit. Some agree that it is unfair that NPRs can ram when players can not, but insist, instead, that ramming be removed entirely - even by NPRs.

I agree. Absolutely. Some players might like such a mechanic where ramming would randomly initiate without player control. But the rest of us would hate such a system.

It does seem, though, that most of us can agree that ramming would have great roleplaying potential.

And, as I wrote some time ago: I think it would be difficult to exploit if the player could only issue a ram if the ship has taken a lot of damage and/or it originally had weapons, but it now has nothing left.

Or, as others have suggested, one could make it an SM-only option. I don't see how anyone can complain about it being SM-only, because we can already use SM mode to play god with our game.
Clearly, the best way to go about it is to make a ship where it's only weapon is the highest cost-density and cost-value object on the ship, and make sure the ship has slightly less MSP than needed to repair it.
Have it float about and experience maintenance failures until the weapon breaks. Bring it in for overhaul without repairing the object. Ramship developed. :P

I do concur with the idea that it should be SM only, yeah.
 

Offline PartyAlias

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2016, 09:50:06 AM »
Okay, so once i had this:

1.  I enter some wormhole with 2 frigates, and there is some alien mothership and 13 meson fighters on the other side waiting.
2.  They destroy 1st frigate and heavily damage 2nd (all weapons out), and i'm like meh the're all dead.
3.  But then, 2nd frigate rams the mothership by itself (i haven't given any orders to them whatsoever).
4.  Last thing i get from that system is some log like "Bandit has armor of at least 20" and "bandit is streaming atmosphere".

So i guess player can ram?
 

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2016, 02:38:15 PM »
Okay, so once i had this:

1.  I enter some wormhole with 2 frigates, and there is some alien mothership and 13 meson fighters on the other side waiting.
2.  They destroy 1st frigate and heavily damage 2nd (all weapons out), and i'm like meh the're all dead.
3.  But then, 2nd frigate rams the mothership by itself (i haven't given any orders to them whatsoever).
4.  Last thing i get from that system is some log like "Bandit has armor of at least 20" and "bandit is streaming atmosphere".

So i guess player can ram?

Are you sure the Bandit didn't ram you? They will do that.
 

Offline PartyAlias

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2016, 09:58:54 AM »
No, i'm not sure who rammed who to be honest.  Moreover it was last year or something, so i vaguely remember that fight in details.  It is possible that bandit rammed me, probably.  It's just i was sure that my frigate done that, because he had no weapons, and why would enemy ram? But, as i said, now i'm not so sure.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2016, 09:39:33 PM »
No, i'm not sure who rammed who to be honest.  Moreover it was last year or something, so i vaguely remember that fight in details.  It is possible that bandit rammed me, probably.  It's just i was sure that my frigate done that, because he had no weapons, and why would enemy ram? But, as i said, now i'm not so sure.
The AI pretty much rams as it pleases, really, if I'm not mistaken.
 

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2016, 01:10:30 AM »
They bloody love it, actually. Certain races do it all the time as soon as they have half of an incomprehensible reason to.
 

Offline byron

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2016, 09:16:15 AM »
The only good rule I've seen for ramming in space combat was the one from Attack Vector Tactical, where, if you want to ram, you have to give a speech.  If the other players find it sufficiently stirring, you can ram, with the explicit intention of making ramming rare and memorable.  I can't see any way to implement that, and frankly, ramming doesn't make much sense when you look at the math.  Overall, I'd prefer nobody was able to do so, or at the very least if the hit chance was greatly reduced.
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Offline Thundercraft

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2016, 08:20:52 PM »
The only good rule I've seen for ramming in space combat was the one from Attack Vector Tactical, where, if you want to ram, you have to give a speech.

Different situation. This is not a tabletop wargame. And, unless I'm mistaken, a majority of Aurora games involve a single player against computer NPRs.

Have you read all three pages of this thread/discussion? I ask because you seem to be overlooking some important points and counterpoints which were brought up.
  • Ramming has tremendous story potential for roleplaying. You can't deny that.
  • Ramming should not be something that you survive. It's a bold sacrifice.
  • There is historical precedent for naval ships and aircraft to ram an enemy out of desperation.
  • What prevents Steve from seriously gimping ship ramming so it's not very exploitable?
  • What would be wrong with making player ship ramming an SM Mode option?
Quote
...with the explicit intention of making ramming rare and memorable.  I can't see any way to implement that...

Making ramming "memorable" is up to the players' imagination and/or ability to write a good story. However, I think we can all agree that it needs to be rare. That would help make it more memorable. Anyway, if a lot of ramming is going on, then it is obviously being exploited.

As for the how: Just make the cost/benefit ratio low such that ramming isn't very tempting. Though, if it was restricted to SM-Mode, I think the temptation of using it becomes a moot point. As others pointed out, we can already using SM Mode to play god with our games.

Most community games would probably forbid ramming. But, if it was allowed, I would imagine that the player wanting to ram must convince the moderator/players, probably by giving good reasons (e.g., a ship heavily damaged and no weapons left) and a willingness to roleplay it.

...frankly, ramming doesn't make much sense when you look at the math.

Tell the NPRs that, then, because they ram all the time. As I asked in my OP: Why do NPRs get to ram, while players can't? That's neither reasonable nor believable.

Which math are you referring to? If you are referring to the difficulty of ships in the vastness of space, traveling at insane speeds, hitting another ship, consider: Missiles in Aurora do this all the time. Consider the difficulty of an AMM trying to impact (or approach within close proximity of) an enemy missile. Granted, missiles may be a lot more maneuverable than a ship. But they're a heck of a lot smaller, too.

...If this could really possibly leave NPR ships too defenseless, then all you'd have to do to fix it is make sure all NPR ships except for specialized FAC or smaller such vessels are equipped with a single, armored, turreted laser or particle beam or railgun or something. Maybe even plasma carronade. That way you can expect depleted missile ships or carriers to at least pose a measurable threat when out of ammo/parasites, without turning them into a supervessel-ending KKV supertorpedo that can engage from rather arbritrary ranges (why oh why is a ship with lower speed and worse initiative interception rating able to ram-engage a ship that should be able to kite it out? Argh)

Good points. And these suggestions sound reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 08:31:13 PM by Thundercraft »
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Offline Erik Luken

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Re: Why can't player races use their ships to ram?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2016, 09:33:12 AM »
Somewhat on a tangent. In Astra Imperia, each race has four attributes; Willpower, Aggressiveness, Xenophobia, and Arrogance. To ram, the ramming ship must roll under Willpower and Aggressiveness. Both values are 1-100. If both of these checks succeed, then there is a chance to hit based on the tonnage of the target ship/250,000.

The chances are fairly minimal, as each hex is 30,000km in size.A lot of empty space to hit a relatively small target.
 

 

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