Author Topic: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3  (Read 5355 times)

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Offline welchbloke

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2009, 04:19:56 PM »
I'd like to add my voice to the chorus.  I think this would be a good use for engineering divisions as well.  I'd also like to see your option 2 merged in but with automated mines added.  I find the idea of making an alien shipyard work after however many thousands of years a little implausible.
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2009, 10:38:22 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
I'd like to add my voice to the chorus.  I think this would be a good use for engineering divisions as well.  I'd also like to see your option 2 merged in but with automated mines added.  I find the idea of making an alien shipyard work after however many thousands of years a little implausible.
Sounds like the consensus is to use an engineering division to restore alien installations, probably using the xenology bonus of its commander to modify the chance of a successful recovery. The trick will be finding a way to differentiate between engineers restoring alien facilities and engineers involved in construction but I can probably do that with a flag on the Ground Forces window.

Now as to what can actually be restored. I don't think anyone would have a problem with minerals, fuel, infrastructure and automated mines. Probably missiles are OK too. A commercial spaceport is OK as that would be like capturing an airbase but I agree that intact shipyards are probably too much. Restoring tracking stations and mass drivers might be possible as their function is relatively simple and therefore and the same applies to terraforming installations. Even maintenance facilities could be thought of as a port so they could be recoverable. The big question is over construction/ordnance/fighter factories, fuel refineries and research faciltiies.

A further couple of points first though. I think everyone has a different idea of how old the ruins are. If our own civilization fell into ruin and was discovered thousands of years later then it's likely not very much at all would be recoverable. if it was discovered a hundred years later, then alien visitors could probably recover quite a lot. I have never really defined how old the Precursors are so perhaps I need to do that before we can create a reasonable solution. We can take a realistic approach based on the age of the galaxy and the possible lifetime of technological civilizations, in which case any ruins would likely be millions of years old. Or we could take a Star Trek, Babylon V or even Starfire approach where most races are relatively even in technical development (with the occasional exceptions such as the Organians or Vorlons). In the latter case, the ruins may only be centuries or even just decades old, which would also make the robotic ships more believable too. In fact, Aurora assumes that situation already becaue the NPRs are relatively even in tech, which indicates they probably evolved on a similar timescale to humans.

How about this scenario? The Precursors are an ancient race that decided to eliminate all other intelligent species in the galaxy. Reluctant to leave their planet, they built their robotic ships to do their bidding and sent them out into space on that mission, preventing any space-capable civilization from expanding into the universe and beocming a threat. The precursor ships found in orbit are therefore the ships that actually caused the destruction of the population below and the ruins are from a wide variety of different species. A century ago, some disaster befell the precursor homeworld (plague, rogue ships, etc.) and it was laid waste. The robotic ships out in the galaxy had no one to command them so they held their positions, continuing with their last orders to destroy any intelligent species. In the century since the demise of the precursors, intelligent species have finally been able to expand into space without interference and that is why they are all relatively equal in terms of tech and why the ruins are not very old.

An alternative scenario is that the precursor civilization was benign and widespread and had brought many other species into a huge pan-galactic empire. As new species demonstrated an ability to travel between stars, they were contacted and became part of the precursor domain (a benevolent Hre'Drak). A century ago, a virulent and deadly plague spread throughout the galaxy, completly wiping out most of the precursor species and sending the survivors into mini dark ages but leaving much of the planetary facilities intact. Those desolate worlds are now the ruin sites and the plague explains why the structures are relatively intact (maybe we call them 'abandoned worlds' instead of 'ruins' in the case of this scenario). Some warship commanders, realising their imminent demise, put their ships on automatic with orders to defend their homeworlds.

Either of those scenarios could provide a reason for relatively recent ruins with a good chance of restoring installations, at least from a physical perspective. I guess the real trick would be deceiphering the alien language and control systems so you could operate them. Assuming the ruins are from multiple species, perhaps each ruin is checked to see if it matches a species from another ruin or is a new 'dead' species. A new research project could be generated for each dead species that would allow you to understand their language and control systems. Completing that research would be necessary before you could restore installations. Or better still, the Xenology Team is retained but with a new mission. Before engineers can begin restoring installations, the Xenology Team must study those ruins until they learn enough about the alien species to permit recovery to begin. The Xenology team becomes the brains that learns to understand the aliens then the engineer divisions can get to work on the recovery. The length of time it would take the Xenology Team would be randomised and unknown to the player until it was completed, but it would depend heavily on the team skill. How does that sound? If a second ruin site from the same alien race is found, the Xenology Team would be unnecesary.

Steve
 

Offline schroeam

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2009, 01:14:18 AM »
Steve,
Seems to have the right feel to it.
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Offline Sotak246

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2009, 10:39:03 AM »
I too like the new ideas you've come up with gives it a more realistic feel.  As to the const/Ord/Fighter recovery, I like the idea of those being recoverable.  You could argue it either way, but I've felt that they are heavy, robust contruction complexes and those aren't going to fade into ruin very quickly.

Mark
 

Offline Shinanygnz

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2009, 10:40:38 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
<snip>
Either of those scenarios could provide a reason for relatively recent ruins with a good chance of restoring installations, at least from a physical perspective. I guess the real trick would be deceiphering the alien language and control systems so you could operate them. Assuming the ruins are from multiple species, perhaps each ruin is checked to see if it matches a species from another ruin or is a new 'dead' species. A new research project could be generated for each dead species that would allow you to understand their language and control systems. Completing that research would be necessary before you could restore installations. Or better still, the Xenology Team is retained but with a new mission. Before engineers can begin restoring installations, the Xenology Team must study those ruins until they learn enough about the alien species to permit recovery to begin. The Xenology team becomes the brains that learns to understand the aliens then the engineer divisions can get to work on the recovery. The length of time it would take the Xenology Team would be randomised and unknown to the player until it was completed, but it would depend heavily on the team skill. How does that sound? If a second ruin site from the same alien race is found, the Xenology Team would be unnecesary.

Steve

I like this plan.
Stephen
 

Offline ShadoCat

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2009, 11:08:25 AM »
Steve, I am of two minds about your two versions of the Precursors.

First, the genocidal Precursor is more believable.  Why would a benign race choose to set their ships to exterminate anyone who might find the ruins of their civilization?  Wouldn't they put up beacons and say:  look at out culture, learn from it and continue our ways?

Now, you could argue that the ships were set to automatic to quarantine the planet and shoot down anyone who might land and spread the plague.  However, this scenario assumes that this decision was made soon enough that they thought that they could contain the plague.  So, why couldn't they?  Also, why destroy any ship in the system?  Why hunt down ships that go through WPs and destroy planets when none of the ships they saw came near the "plague planet"?

However, from a game play perspective, it might be better to justify the plague scenario.  That way the ruins can be as old as you wish since super advanced Precursors could build to last.

OTOH, a problem with the genocidal Precursors is: what was the trigger tech level?  The Precursors have to have been dead long enough for humans to have missed the trigger.  

Maybe it isn't a tech level.  Maybe they made regular sweeps through the galaxy.  That would mean that they wiped planets in our local area all at the same time.  That would mean that as you when in one direction, civilizations would get progressively older and in the other they would get progressively younger.  This is the Dahak scenario.  This leads to the possibility that the Precursor fleet will sweep through once again.  Maybe the remains of the fleet.  If the Precursors set this in motion but feel to their own fleet.  Then no more ships would be built.  Each sweep through, there would be fewer and fewer ships.  This could be why some ships were left behind.  They were damaged and couldn't keep up.  They held position and self repaired.  They will meet up with the fleet on its next sweep.

Offline mavikfelna

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2009, 02:33:30 PM »
If the ruins are as young as you're saying, then everything should be recoverable, even shipyards.

--Mav
 

Offline Beersatron

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2009, 02:58:51 PM »
Instead of working shipyards, what about wrecks of shipyards that you could salvage. You could say that since they are offline that they have no working deflector arrays and are thus riddled with micro-meteorite impacts.

Actually thinking about it some more, surely a Shipyard would be noticeable on the first orbit of the planet since they are in orbit themselves? A Xenologist team would be working on the planet, no?
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2009, 08:32:47 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Sounds like the consensus is to use an engineering division to restore alien installations, probably using the xenology bonus of its commander to modify the chance of a successful recovery. The trick will be finding a way to differentiate between engineers restoring alien facilities and engineers involved in construction but I can probably do that with a flag on the Ground Forces window.

I like this idea, but have always assumed the teams were just finding and translating the instruction manual for intact installation, which had just been switched off.

Edit. You could combine the two. Have the Xeno team identify what the installations were, recover any new tech, then have the Engineering division try and reactivate them. This may just multiply your programming headaches though.

Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The big question is over construction/ordnance/fighter factories, fuel refineries and research facilities.

I like the idea of recovering fighter factories as I usually start without them and treat them as a new tech, not normally researching or building them until I find some.

Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
I think everyone has a different idea of how old the ruins are.

Yes, my take has been the Precursors built for permanence and some maintenance facilities are still working or there would only be earth mounds left. Thus thousands rather than hundreds of years (read too many Andre Norton books as a kid :) ).

The ships have a sophisticated AI that can tell whether there are crew aboard, state of health etc and have a set of standing instructions. E.g. do not let unrecognised spacecraft that do not transmit friendly IFF approach planet, listening post, location without senior officer expressly permitting it. Thus they default into hostile mode.

Regards
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Offline IanD

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2009, 08:55:23 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The Xenology team becomes the brains that learns to understand the aliens then the engineer divisions can get to work on the recovery. The length of time it would take the Xenology Team would be randomised and unknown to the player until it was completed, but it would depend heavily on the team skill. How does that sound? If a second ruin site from the same alien race is found, the Xenology Team would be unnecesary.

Note to self. Read all of a post before jumping in with both feet :D . In previous versions ruins used to have a name of the vanished race against them and I thought gave a bonus on the recovery of similar ruins, I miss the fluff. On a related note when you recover old ship wrecks in a precursor system it would be nice to get told what race they were and whether weapons fire destroyed the ship(s). Thus the site of a battle becomes more obvious, but what you don't know is how recent the battle was except by a research project. Eg dating of wrecks salvaged in xyz system.

Regards
IanD
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2009, 10:01:23 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The random selection table in v4.3 ia as follows:

1-11 Minerals
12-15 Missiles
16-17 Mass Driver
18-22 Maintenance Facility
23-37 Construction Factory
38-45 Ordnance Factory
46-49 Fighter Factory
50 Spaceport
51-57 Fuel Refinery
58-71 Infrastructure
72-76 Tracking Station
77-82 Research Facility
83-87 Terraforming
88-94 Fuel
95-96 Ground Force Training Facility
97 Duranium
98 Neutronium
99 Sorium
100 Shipyard

So double chance for Duranium/Neutronium/Sorium as 1-11 is random mineral

So are mines part of minerals? as I certainly recover quite a few?

Regards
IanD
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2009, 01:24:12 PM »
Quote from: "IanD"
So are mines part of minerals? as I certainly recover quite a few?
Oops - I missed 101-150 Mines and 151-200 Automated Mines

Steve
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2009, 04:07:47 PM »
Quote from: "mavikfelna"
If the ruins are as young as you're saying, then everything should be recoverable, even shipyards.

--Mav
The shipyards are orbital in this version of the game (IIRC). As a result, if the shipyards are abandoned (for this I read derelict - no working systems) then whether the shipyard is still there after a century, leaving aside micrometeorite damage etc, is down to what orbit it is in.  There are plenty of orbits that take more than a century to decay, but I don't see any race using them.  Why put the shipyard further away from the planet and increase your fuel and time overheads?  There are plenty of fluff reasons that could explain the ability to restore the ground based facilities but I baulk at the idea of an orbitting shipyard surviving for a century.
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Offline welchbloke

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Re: Updates to Teams and Ruins for v3.3
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2009, 04:29:13 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
How about this scenario? The Precursors are an ancient race that decided to eliminate all other intelligent species in the galaxy. Reluctant to leave their planet, they built their robotic ships to do their bidding and sent them out into space on that mission, preventing any space-capable civilization from expanding into the universe and beocming a threat. The precursor ships found in orbit are therefore the ships that actually caused the destruction of the population below and the ruins are from a wide variety of different species. A century ago, some disaster befell the precursor homeworld (plague, rogue ships, etc.) and it was laid waste. The robotic ships out in the galaxy had no one to command them so they held their positions, continuing with their last orders to destroy any intelligent species. In the century since the demise of the precursors, intelligent species have finally been able to expand into space without interference and that is why they are all relatively equal in terms of tech and why the ruins are not very old.

Either of those scenarios could provide a reason for relatively recent ruins with a good chance of restoring installations, at least from a physical perspective. I guess the real trick would be deceiphering the alien language and control systems so you could operate them. Assuming the ruins are from multiple species, perhaps each ruin is checked to see if it matches a species from another ruin or is a new 'dead' species. A new research project could be generated for each dead species that would allow you to understand their language and control systems. Completing that research would be necessary before you could restore installations. Or better still, the Xenology Team is retained but with a new mission. Before engineers can begin restoring installations, the Xenology Team must study those ruins until they learn enough about the alien species to permit recovery to begin. The Xenology team becomes the brains that learns to understand the aliens then the engineer divisions can get to work on the recovery. The length of time it would take the Xenology Team would be randomised and unknown to the player until it was completed, but it would depend heavily on the team skill. How does that sound? If a second ruin site from the same alien race is found, the Xenology Team would be unnecesary.
Steve
Personally I like the xenocidal precursor scenario.  It makes them feel like a constant threat that can't be be reasoned with, can't be ignored and will fight to the last  :D
The changed role for the Xenology team leadiong the research and then handing over to the engineers sits well with me.  Wasn't there a similar concept/organisation in Babylon 5?
Welchbloke