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Posted by: Shadow
« on: April 13, 2011, 06:59:52 PM »

Ultimately, the fact Titan can't be fully terraformed isn't a huge issue. Just reduce the colonization cost as much as possible and put forward a substantial initial investment of infrastructure. The civilian sector will provide bits of the latter as necessary and you won't have to worry about it anymore. In my game, 46 years in, Titan enjoys a healthy population of approximately 800 million. Could be more, but Sol tends to become the primary source of colonists for extrasolar settlements sooner than later.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: April 13, 2011, 05:06:08 PM »

If you placed a large parabola of mirrors behind the sun and had it aimed precisely at a planet you could make it MUCH hotter.  The mirror could just sit there stable forever but it could sit still enough to fry the target.

You've misidentified the "closed system" here though.  The surface of the sun is about 6k degrees but the core of the sun is millions and millions of degrees hotter than that.

If you look at the open system of a planet with some star outside the open system (or hey, how about some crazy scenario where it's heated by five of them) then of course there's going to be a huge energy concentration that by all means seems to be giving the planet all kinds of effects that you wouldn't get with increasing entropy.  It looks the same way if your system only contains the surface of the sun and the planet.

But you've got to look at the whole thing when you talk about closed systems.  Refrigerators pump energy from a low temp bath over to a high temp bath all day long but you don't have any problem understanding why that local decrease in entropy isn't a net decrease in entropy if you're really looking at all the energy involved in making that happen.
I'm going to assume that this was a reply to my message even though it quoted someone else - pesky quote button.

First, I think you meant to put the mirrors behind the earth, with the earth at the focal point, or even a pair of mirrors - one each behind the sun and the earth.  And yes, in this case you could get the earth hotter than the surface of the sun in the limiting case of a big enough sun and a small enough earth (so that the surface areas of the mirrors occupy a negligible solid angle in terms of radiating the energy to empty space).  This is because the temperature of the earth is (mostly) controlled by the question "what is the temperature required to radiate the solar energy it's absorbing back into space as black-body radiation".

  But this isn't what I was talking about.  The original question was "Is there a real-world reason why atmospheric energy retention can only get you so much warming, or is it just a gameplay thing?"  No mirrors involved :)  My (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) answer was that there are 2nd law reasons why one can't just wave the magic "greenhouse effect" wand and obtain arbitrarily high temperatures.  To put it a different way, if you put a black-body marble in the center of a 1,000 degree (black-body) oven, it will eventually heat up to 1,000 degrees, but it won't get hotter than that (assuming you don't have a source of free energy somewhere that you're using to run a heat pump) - this is Clausius' statement.  Putting greenhouse gasses around the marble isn't going to change that.  And if you cut away 99% of the solid angle of the oven (so that the bit that's left is analogous to the surface of the sun that's emitting at us), you still aren't going to make the marble hotter than 1,000 degrees.  This isn't to say that it's impossible to make the marble hotter than the oven remnant - once you've cut the 99% away it's implied you've got a source of free energy (otherwise the oven remnant would radiate away all its heat and drop in temperature), so you can play all sorts of games like your mirror or lenses to make it hotter.  It's just saying that the greenhouse effect alone isn't going to do it for you.

  I suspect everyone's getting tired of this sub-thread, so I'm going to stop.  I'm happy to continue discussing it with you offline through PMs.

John
Posted by: Shoku
« on: April 13, 2011, 01:57:53 PM »

Quote from: Detjen link=topic=3360. msg33674#msg33674 date=1302653397
   It seems as though Titan's atmosphere is acting as an anti-green house effect rather than a greenhouse effect as it appears to be programmed into the game.     So since the solar system is manually entered rather than generated as other systems are,  why not just make the base temperature the same and edit the greenhouse gas effect so the temperature reads correct, as that seems to be what the atmosphere is doing in Real life.      if not that way then maybe replacing the atmosphere with Safe Anti-Greenhouse gases to get the desired temp,  and then allow us later explorers to remove those gases and work at building a habitable Titan. 

  Though there is one other hole in colonizing titan using the game mechanics.     according to scientific data Titan's gravity is only .  14 not the .  53 as programmed, making the gravity too low for unmodified human colonization. 
If you placed a large parabola of mirrors behind the sun and had it aimed precisely at a planet you could make it MUCH hotter.  The mirror could just sit there stable forever but it could sit still enough to fry the target.

You've misidentified the "closed system" here though.  The surface of the sun is about 6k degrees but the core of the sun is millions and millions of degrees hotter than that.

If you look at the open system of a planet with some star outside the open system (or hey, how about some crazy scenario where it's heated by five of them) then of course there's going to be a huge energy concentration that by all means seems to be giving the planet all kinds of effects that you wouldn't get with increasing entropy.  It looks the same way if your system only contains the surface of the sun and the planet.

But you've got to look at the whole thing when you talk about closed systems.  Refrigerators pump energy from a low temp bath over to a high temp bath all day long but you don't have any problem understanding why that local decrease in entropy isn't a net decrease in entropy if you're really looking at all the energy involved in making that happen.
Posted by: Rastaman
« on: April 12, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

Implement a general effect applicable to any cold atmosphere on any object that has methane in it by ignoring the greenhouse effect of methane in that case.
Posted by: Detjen
« on: April 12, 2011, 07:09:57 PM »

   It seems as though Titan's atmosphere is acting as an anti-green house effect rather than a greenhouse effect as it appears to be programmed into the game.    So since the solar system is manually entered rather than generated as other systems are,  why not just make the base temperature the same and edit the greenhouse gas effect so the temperature reads correct, as that seems to be what the atmosphere is doing in Real life.     if not that way then maybe replacing the atmosphere with Safe Anti-Greenhouse gases to get the desired temp,  and then allow us later explorers to remove those gases and work at building a habitable Titan.

  Though there is one other hole in colonizing titan using the game mechanics.    according to scientific data Titan's gravity is only . 14 not the . 53 as programmed, making the gravity too low for unmodified human colonization.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: April 12, 2011, 09:10:20 AM »

But really it wouldn't be a violation of the second law of thermodynamics if some planet was getting hotter than the surface of the sun from light emitted by the sun.  Greenhouse gases don't actually give us a heat pump like that.  As long as the entropy in the sun goes up more than the entropy of the planet decreases from catching all this energy then the there's no thermodynamics problem.

Yes it would.  By definition, temperature is the change in entropy per unit energy (T = dS/dU).  So moving energy from a low-temperature bath to a high-temperature bath in a closed system violates the 2nd law, since you've reduced the total entropy.  This is why air conditioners require an external power source - you need to get the free energy (in the technical sense) from somewhere other than the two heat baths.  One more thing - then entropy of a system goes down (not up) when it emits energy.  Since it has lower energy, there are fewer quantum states available, hence lower entropy (which is the log of the number of quantum states available).

John

PS - You could, of course, make local hot-spots on the surface of the world by running heat pumps, but that's irrelevant for the greenhouse heating discussion.
PPS - Read the Clausius' statement section of the wikipedia article on the 2nd law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics  That's what I was saying.
Posted by: EarthquakeDamage
« on: April 12, 2011, 04:35:35 AM »

You can change them you know. Bottom line of the F9 screen there should be an option to change a body's image. I'm pretty sure all the planets (but not the Jupiter moons of Europa-Callisto) that are blue spheres have images, excluding Uranus, which is a blue sphere in reality (see wiki page).

I already use that option, but IMO letting the end user do it once per campaign (or release, if you have the DB password) is a far less satisfying solution than letting the developer do it precisely once.  It's not very high on my priority list, but I figure it'd be easy to throw in whenever he's tweaking Sol bodies.  Hence the suggestion.
Posted by: Shoku
« on: April 12, 2011, 01:17:15 AM »

Quote from: sloanjh link=topic=3360. msg33609#msg33609 date=1302576513
Ummm that's what I said (read my second paragraph again, substitute "infrared" for "long wavelengths" and "colors of light they don't catch" for "short wavelengths"). I'm sure they don't :)  I'm pretty sure Steve just threw a number in there to get some sort of cutoff. Again, that's what I said.   I guess I should have filled in the dots a little more :)  And as for not giving off visible light, that depends on the incoming energy flux.   If you put a Dyson sphere a few km above the surface of the sun, it should end up at the surface temperature of the sun because the sun is (I assume) radiating as a black body - the sphere will heat up until it's hot enough to radiate at the same rate (getting rid of the fusion energy). Actually, I'm a physicist - at some point in the distant past of thermo class, they made me derive the black body distribution :) I also can remember deriving the temperature of the Earth, assuming it's a perfect black body, by balancing incoming solar radiation with outgoing black-body radiation.   The part that amazed me is that it comes out right at ~300K, i. e.  the actual temperature.

John
I was only arguing against the bit about the second law of thermodynamics.
-
The greenhouse gases would actually have some different transparency windows (fake term) with the temperature of the planet having a bigger impact on how much heat the greenhouse gas trapped.  Seeing at we're given that little equation instead of potentially having to wait several years for the temperature to rise up to the new equilibrium of the atmosphere it's basically completely clear that it doesn't simulate that.
-
I almost didn't see the bit about the Dyson sphere only being a few km from the surface of the sun so I did all this math and was gonna talk about how the regular radius would drop the flux per square meter to 1/500,000th :b

The point of a dyson sphere though would be to "capture" the energy not as heat but most likely as electrical energy.  I guess we could go retro and have hot water turn turbines but I don't think we could get enough water for that by draining the oceans.  No, if we managed any kind of efficiency in that machine it shouldn't get near the temperature of the sun- except if a few km from the sun means the opaque surface and isn't far enough to get any relative vacuum between the two surfaces.
-
I put that in more for anyone else reading without the science background.  Maybe I have some kind of obsession with making sure everyone around can follow what I'm talking about.


But really it wouldn't be a violation of the second law of thermodynamics if some planet was getting hotter than the surface of the sun from light emitted by the sun.  Greenhouse gases don't actually give us a heat pump like that.  As long as the entropy in the sun goes up more than the entropy of the planet decreases from catching all this energy then the there's no thermodynamics problem.
Posted by: Tarran
« on: April 11, 2011, 11:51:38 PM »

If you change anything in Sol, maybe you can add some Sol-specific planet images while you're there.  :)  Those generic blue spheres bug me.
You can change them you know. Bottom line of the F9 screen there should be an option to change a body's image. I'm pretty sure all the planets (but not the Jupiter moons of Europa-Callisto) that are blue spheres have images, excluding Uranus, which is a blue sphere in reality (see wiki page).
Posted by: EarthquakeDamage
« on: April 11, 2011, 10:51:14 PM »

No, its not a bug. The Sol system was typed into the database rather than being generated so there will be some oddities. If the Aurora version doesn't match the actual known conditions for a planet, let me know and I will update it.

Steve

If you change anything in Sol, maybe you can add some Sol-specific planet images while you're there.  :)  Those generic blue spheres bug me.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: April 11, 2011, 09:48:33 PM »

*SNIP*
So this gives us a really different answer for why greenhouse gases can't heat up a planet more than the star the light is coming from: if the gases are catching 100% of the infrared (or whatever range of colors it catches) then the planet will heat up until it gives off colors of light they don't catch. 
Ummm that's what I said (read my second paragraph again, substitute "infrared" for "long wavelengths" and "colors of light they don't catch" for "short wavelengths").
Quote
I don't think the equations in game really reflect this real world function but the upper limit is most likely a shortcut for getting a similar effect. 
I'm sure they don't :)  I'm pretty sure Steve just threw a number in there to get some sort of cutoff.
Quote
 
Starting over (not entirely) at basically every temperature hot (as in not super-cold) material gives off at least a little short wavelength light.  You hit a point where you're giving off lots of light that will get past greenhouse gases well before you're actually giving off mainly visible light (meaning when the ground would be "red hot. ")
Again, that's what I said.  I guess I should have filled in the dots a little more :)  And as for not giving off visible light, that depends on the incoming energy flux.  If you put a Dyson sphere a few km above the surface of the sun, it should end up at the surface temperature of the sun because the sun is (I assume) radiating as a black body - the sphere will heat up until it's hot enough to radiate at the same rate (getting rid of the fusion energy).
Quote
Look up black body radiation if you want to know more about what light things give off.
Actually, I'm a physicist - at some point in the distant past of thermo class, they made me derive the black body distribution :) I also can remember deriving the temperature of the Earth, assuming it's a perfect black body, by balancing incoming solar radiation with outgoing black-body radiation.  The part that amazed me is that it comes out right at ~300K, i.e. the actual temperature.

John
Posted by: Shoku
« on: April 11, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »

Quote from: sloanjh link=topic=3360.   msg32291#msg32291 date=1300411174
The 2nd law of thermodynamics :-)

If the sun is at 6,000K, it's not going to be able to heat a planet up to 10,000K in a sustained way - otherwise energy would be flowing from low temperature to high temperature, which can't be done without expending "free energy" (a technical term in thermodynamics, which basically means useful energy that you can get work out of) somewhere else - otherwise you violate the 2nd law.     For example, an air conditioner only works because there's a power plant somewhere that's burning coal, which has a lot of free energy stored in it which is released by the burning and used by the power plant.   

In reality, it won't even get the planet up to 6,000K.     The way the greenhouse effect works is that a body has a different albedo (how efficiently it both radiates and absorbs energy - they have to be the same) at different wavelengths.     Lower temperature bodies want to radiate at longer wavelengths - think of orange coals vs.    white flame in a fireplace.     So if you have a body which neither absorbs nor radiates at long wavelengths (low temperatures) but absorbs and radiates well at short wavelengths (high temperatures) and shine high-temperature light on it (from the sun) it will heat up more than one that has a uniform albedo.     Basically it needs to heat up more in order to radiate the absorbed energy away.     But if the threshold for change in albedo is too high, it won't absorb any energy in the first place, so the effect is cut off.   

John
That's not the way this works at all.    The sun is constantly expending atomic energy to produce all that heat.    In turn the very hot and dense hydrogen at the surface of the sun has to get rid of that heat somehow or else it would be much hotter.    Heat doesn't travel through a vacuum but light does so the light from this hot gas leaves the Sun.    The energy from the Sun going to some planetoid doesn't have anything to do with how how the target is.   

Instead we have two things on the target that control the temperature.    We know that a thing is white if it reflects a lot of light (and there is roughly white light pointed at it,) and that is the albedo.    If the light isn't reflected it is absorbed, and just like physically hitting an object that makes it heat up a tad.    In turn for the planet to give off heat it also does this as light- but different wavelengths.    Hotter things give off shorter wavelengths of light.   

After that greenhouse gases are like a hot car in the Summer.    Visible light goes in through your windshield and if it is reflected it goes right back out.    If it is absorbed it heats the seats and things up and then later they eject some of their heat as light, mostly infrared.    If you're talking about infrared light glass and greenhouse gases aren't transparent at all- they're more like a solid lightish gray for that section of the spectrum.   

So this gives us a really different answer for why greenhouse gases can't heat up a planet more than the star the light is coming from: if the gases are catching 100% of the infrared (or whatever range of colors it catches) then the planet will heat up until it gives off colors of light they don't catch.   
*and if they stop all colors of light they're anti-greenhouse gases because the light can't get in in the first place.   
**and the planet can only have 50% of it's surface pointing at the star to catch light while 100% of it can be giving off light as it cools- though the light it gets from a star is even less that 50% of the area.    Instead the equivalent area of light it gets is the cross section of the planet.   

-

I don't think the equations in game really reflect this real world function but the upper limit is most likely a shortcut for getting a similar effect.   

*You can also lose atoms from your atmosphere and heat with them.   On geologically active worlds there is usually a magnetosphere to keeps the solar wind from making ions out of your water vapor and such but the game doesn't seem to touch on this at all. 
Uhm, not the point I meant to make.
Starting over (not entirely) at basically every temperature hot (as in not super-cold) material gives off at least a little short wavelength light.  You hit a point where you're giving off lots of light that will get past greenhouse gases well before you're actually giving off mainly visible light (meaning when the ground would be "red hot. ")
Look up black body radiation if you want to know more about what light things give off.
Posted by: Ziusudra
« on: March 17, 2011, 11:35:52 PM »

No, its not a bug. The Sol system was typed into the database rather than being generated so there will be some oddities. If the Aurora version doesn't match the actual known conditions for a planet, let me know and I will update it.

Steve
No, from what I've read the surface temperature and atmospheric composition are correct. (Though, Titan is thought to have considerable water ice.)

The issue with the too low base temperature is that the game doesn't account for cloud albedo. In the case of the actual Titan, the temperature is low enough that the methane condenses into thick clouds with a high albedo that offset the methane's greenhouse effect.

The ideal would be a calculated cloud albedo, based on temperature and boiling points of atmospheric gasses, that would then be included into the greenhouse factor calculation. But, that may to much work for too little reward.
Posted by: Narmio
« on: March 17, 2011, 08:33:55 PM »

Right, that makes limited sense to me, but since I only have a limited knowledge of physics, that is good enough.  Thanks. :D
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: March 17, 2011, 08:19:34 PM »

Ah, I didn't realise there was a hard maximum on the greenhouse effect.  Why is that, exactly? Is there a real-world reason why atmospheric energy retention can only get you so much warming, or is it just a gameplay thing?

The 2nd law of thermodynamics :-)

If the sun is at 6,000K, it's not going to be able to heat a planet up to 10,000K in a sustained way - otherwise energy would be flowing from low temperature to high temperature, which can't be done without expending "free energy" (a technical term in thermodynamics, which basically means useful energy that you can get work out of) somewhere else - otherwise you violate the 2nd law.  For example, an air conditioner only works because there's a power plant somewhere that's burning coal, which has a lot of free energy stored in it which is released by the burning and used by the power plant.

In reality, it won't even get the planet up to 6,000K.  The way the greenhouse effect works is that a body has a different albedo (how efficiently it both radiates and absorbs energy - they have to be the same) at different wavelengths.  Lower temperature bodies want to radiate at longer wavelengths - think of orange coals vs. white flame in a fireplace.  So if you have a body which neither absorbs nor radiates at long wavelengths (low temperatures) but absorbs and radiates well at short wavelengths (high temperatures) and shine high-temperature light on it (from the sun) it will heat up more than one that has a uniform albedo.  Basically it needs to heat up more in order to radiate the absorbed energy away.  But if the threshold for change in albedo is too high, it won't absorb any energy in the first place, so the effect is cut off.

John