Return PDCs please

[plasticpanzers (OP)]

I am glad there is a  new ground combat version of Aurora in C# but I disagree on the deletion of a dedicated
PDC and replacing it with ground components.    Generally you cannot plop a gun turret in a field and call it
space defense.  Any fortification requires layers of protection.   Besides the numerous Sci-Fi versions of PDC
these are basically really coast defense forts or land forts.   Two examples are Fort Drum and Verdun.  They are
built into an area with a predetermined protection (layers of reinforced concrete) and mount long range
artillery but also layers of mid size artillery and support weapons like machine guns and Mortars.   They have
their own gunners, fuel, supply, ammo but they also have a garrison of regular troops to defend them.

Basically if you have a PDC and a compact one then the garrison would be smaller but if you have one that
is spread over dozens of miles of terrain (prairie or mountains) then the ground defenders would have to
increase exponentially to provide the greater support and defense needed.  One battalion might be ok to
protect a single small or primitive PDC but something that spans mountain chains would require divisions
for the same protection.

Mobile ground combat is not planetary defense.  It is far too fragile.  Despite the loving comments of folks
who want giant mech warriors (that a single good HEAT or APDS round would destroy).   You need more
than just guns with wheels or tracks or prime movers.  You need miles and miles of terrain to bury your
defenses in again from Prairie to Mountain chain.   You need rock and dirt for protection and as a layer
to soak up damage.   A mobile carnival would not be the same as Fort Drum or Verdun.

 There is a difference between mobile forces and static fortification.  Most folks cannot haul a 14 in gun
around with them in armored turrets.  The mobility of ground units is great for them.  But a  PDC
is stationary but far better defended both by ground and materials.   You cannot really pour both into
one pan and stir them together.

As we all know in dozens and dozens of scifi books the PDC is essential for planetary defense but mobile
units are needed as a reaction force or invading force to dig out the PDCs defenders.  We have 100s of
years of real history on harbor and land fortifications as a guide to show that Fort Drum cannot have wheels
but are defined by their design to hold certain ground.

[Jorgen_CAB]

STO weapons are placed i static mounts which can be armoured so that is an abstraction for placing them in fortified places on the planet. The weapon itself can then be defended by ground forces or they can be targeted by enemy bombardments from space. They can also be targeted by enemy air missions as well if I remember correctly.

PDC was removed because they were essentially space structures from a mechanical perspective and did not fit into the new mechanic of ground combat.

You can easily envision the Static mount and surrounding troops as exactly what you described from an immersive perspective.

The only change is the mechanic not the way you can imagine how it works from a role-play perspective.

[Gyrfalcon]

Not to mention PDCs were apparently a pain to code to around because they were ships but not actually. They were difficult to code and code around without bugs. The STO units are a lot simpler for everyone.

[DFNewb]

My biggest issue is how their targeting works (they seem to all like to target the same thing, or random things, either overkilling in a 5 second increment or not killing in the 5 second jump when you have enough firepower to take out a ship a round which will reduce damage done to your planet).

Other than that I don't see why anyone would want PDC's back.

[mtm84]

Outside of role play (which I fully realize can be a major source of fun many people have with this game, myself included) the only thing we are missing out on by getting rid of PDCs is the extra free armor, land based missile launchers, and maintenance free defense.  But with the changes to bombardment that get rid of the atmosphere penalty to energy weapons, a pdc wouldn’t really be that much better protected vs an orbital weapons station.

[Profugo Barbatus]

Land based missile capability is the only thing I really miss from them, and I am sure I can build some absolutely ridiculous size 100 launchers in space to serve the same purpose. STO weapons are exactly what I wanted otherwise.

Nothing like chucking 20 size 100 ICBM's at slow speeds across the star system to intercept and then release an absolute storm of missiles upon the enemy.

[DFNewb]

Land based missile capability is the only thing I really miss from them, and I am sure I can build some absolutely ridiculous size 100 launchers in space to serve the same purpose. STO weapons are exactly what I wanted otherwise.

Nothing like chucking 20 size 100 ICBM's at slow speeds across the star system to intercept and then release an absolute storm of missiles upon the enemy.

Current I have been trying out 500ton or less ships with no engines for planetary missiles cause you can pump them out of fighter factories.

[Alsadius]

Land based missile capability is the only thing I really miss from them, and I am sure I can build some absolutely ridiculous size 100 launchers in space to serve the same purpose. STO weapons are exactly what I wanted otherwise.

Nothing like chucking 20 size 100 ICBM's at slow speeds across the star system to intercept and then release an absolute storm of missiles upon the enemy.

Current I have been trying out 500ton or less ships with no engines for planetary missiles cause you can pump them out of fighter factories.

Heck, even include engines. No reason why your main fighter reserve force can't chill out in the skies over Earth.

[Person012345]

STO weapons are placed i static mounts which can be armoured so that is an abstraction for placing them in fortified places on the planet. The weapon itself can then be defended by ground forces or they can be targeted by enemy bombardments from space. They can also be targeted by enemy air missions as well if I remember correctly.

PDC was removed because they were essentially space structures from a mechanical perspective and did not fit into the new mechanic of ground combat.

You can easily envision the Static mount and surrounding troops as exactly what you described from an immersive perspective.

The only change is the mechanic not the way you can imagine how it works from a role-play perspective.

PDCs were decided to be removed prior to the current ground combat system being decided, they weren't removed because of it.

[Jorgen_CAB]

PDCs were decided to be removed prior to the current ground combat system being decided, they weren't removed because of it.

AND?!?

They were removed as they were essentially space structures with some special rules... Steve wanted a different type of land based warfare model. Whichever idea he came up with first... does that really matter?!?

[plasticpanzers (OP)]

would matter to me.   The arguments given are unsupported 'historically wise'... what I hear is that you can build basically
a huge mech with a giant gun, heavily armored and plug it into farm field 546.   What defenses does it have other
than what armor it has (can't be much or would sink into planet) or shields (cannot provide enough power).   A PDC
is an integrated weapon system.   A system of layers that is cored by its command post.   It would be like "Hey Fred!
I am glad we plopped this Mk55 Bugzapper mech here to guard this planet.... whats on the other side of that mountain
behind us?" Fred: "Don't know Zorg!  You want me to go find out if anything is still there?  I'll be back in a week".

PDCs are exactly what historically created coastal or land fortifications are.   They are designed to be hit very hard and
survive and to hit back really hard.   They layer defenses such a secondary guns and machine guns and mortars.  This
is all basic history stuff anybody can read about.  Again Fort Drum would be part of a defense system for Manila Bay or
game wise its a heavily armored and shielded ground based weapon with smaller weapons for close defense and even
smaller weapons to support those.  Verdun or Ft Douaumont or Maginot.   They are there to stop an attack from Space
and hold out on the surface.  They deny the enemy a place to stand without getting pounded.

The larger the PDC the more ground area it takes up and therefore the larger the garrison needs to be to protect it.   Having
PDC "El Scorpio" (book Sleeping Planet) as an example would be up the creek without sufficient ground forces to defend it
from ground attack nomatter how powerful its anti-space weapons are.

Where you put a PDC makes a difference.    Into a swamp is not going to be as good as into a granite mountain range which
is why NORAD is under a mountain and not in Florida.   It would require different types of designs of PDCs for different planet
surfaces.

I feel that the PDC was removed rather than remodeled because perhaps it was easier to simply make it a ground combat game
in a game.   But if your sitting in a hole in the ground with a big gun and somebody drops a nuke or a big rail gun round on you
your little hole, or armor, or shield, in that relatively small Mech is going to be paste.   The PDC protects mobile ground units so
they can move and fight in relative safety.

I just feel there was no either Sci-Fi or Historical reason to remove them and replace them with mobile units.  Or to micromanage
a bunch of static units.   There is no real integration of purpose.  Mobile vs Fort.   I don't know what kind of Mech could withstand
a 150mm Railgun hit from space.  The darned shield generator would be torn from the Mech and plugged into a hole a few hundred
feet below the surface and the Mech would lost most or all of its resale value.

These are two different things doing 2 different jobs.  Go back and look at Fort Drum again or the Maginot.    They are not invincible
but the Japanese never took Drum by storm nor did the Germans fully penetrate the Maginot line, they went around.  You want to
see what heavy naval gunfire can do?  Look at the Japanese ships that pounded Guadalcanal or the US vs what actually was an
island converted into a single fortress in Iwo Jima.

I do not agree that removing this was a good idea just to create your own fancy ground units.   Peas and Watermelon are not the
same even tho both are green.

[DFNewb]

would matter to me.   The arguments given are unsupported 'historically wise'... what I hear is that you can build basically
a huge mech with a giant gun, heavily armored and plug it into farm field 546.   What defenses does it have other
than what armor it has (can't be much or would sink into planet) or shields (cannot provide enough power).   A PDC
is an integrated weapon system.   A system of layers that is cored by its command post.   It would be like "Hey Fred!
I am glad we plopped this Mk55 Bugzapper mech here to guard this planet.... whats on the other side of that mountain
behind us?" Fred: "Don't know Zorg!  You want me to go find out if anything is still there?  I'll be back in a week".

PDCs are exactly what historically created coastal or land fortifications are.   They are designed to be hit very hard and
survive and to hit back really hard.   They layer defenses such a secondary guns and machine guns and mortars.  This
is all basic history stuff anybody can read about.  Again Fort Drum would be part of a defense system for Manila Bay or
game wise its a heavily armored and shielded ground based weapon with smaller weapons for close defense and even
smaller weapons to support those.  Verdun or Ft Douaumont or Maginot.   They are there to stop an attack from Space
and hold out on the surface.  They deny the enemy a place to stand without getting pounded.

The larger the PDC the more ground area it takes up and therefore the larger the garrison needs to be to protect it.   Having
PDC "El Scorpio" (book Sleeping Planet) as an example would be up the creek without sufficient ground forces to defend it
from ground attack nomatter how powerful its anti-space weapons are.

Where you put a PDC makes a difference.    Into a swamp is not going to be as good as into a granite mountain range which
is why NORAD is under a mountain and not in Florida.   It would require different types of designs of PDCs for different planet
surfaces.

I feel that the PDC was removed rather than remodeled because perhaps it was easier to simply make it a ground combat game
in a game.   But if your sitting in a hole in the ground with a big gun and somebody drops a nuke or a big rail gun round on you
your little hole, or armor, or shield, in that relatively small Mech is going to be paste.   The PDC protects mobile ground units so
they can move and fight in relative safety.

I just feel there was no either Sci-Fi or Historical reason to remove them and replace them with mobile units.  Or to micromanage
a bunch of static units.   There is no real integration of purpose.  Mobile vs Fort.   I don't know what kind of Mech could withstand
a 150mm Railgun hit from space.  The darned shield generator would be torn from the Mech and plugged into a hole a few hundred
feet below the surface and the Mech would lost most or all of its resale value.

These are two different things doing 2 different jobs.  Go back and look at Fort Drum again or the Maginot.    They are not invincible
but the Japanese never took Drum by storm nor did the Germans fully penetrate the Maginot line, they went around.  You want to
see what heavy naval gunfire can do?  Look at the Japanese ships that pounded Guadalcanal or the US vs what actually was an
island converted into a single fortress in Iwo Jima.

I do not agree that removing this was a good idea just to create your own fancy ground units.   Peas and Watermelon are not the
same.

You can only put the STO's on STATIC units.

[Agm-114]

"I feel that the PDC was removed rather than remodeled because perhaps it was easier to simply make it a ground combat game
in a game."
Lol that's basically that's what steve has said. He wanted to streamline the ship code to have less edge cases. PDC were horribly buggy and it'd probably be a ton of work to implement them. You can still build orbital defenses though.

[mtm84]

Steve didn’t remove PDCs just so that he could change the ground combat system, he removed them because he didn’t want special rules for them.  He added STO weapons in order to replace some of the lost functionality of PDCs, since he was already in the process of expending ground combat rules in general.

[alex_brunius]

I just feel there was no either Sci-Fi or Historical reason to remove

...

I do not agree that removing this was a good idea just to create your own fancy ground units.   Peas and Watermelon are not the
same.

They were not removed to begin with, everything in aurora C# was coded from scratch in a different language.

We don't even know if it would be possible at all to do all the changes Steve has made to ground units and also add all the strange / broken interactions with PDCs again to the same game engine, because it's something that has never been done before.

For all we know even attempting it might have delayed the project another 6 months, or more if it ended up not working at all and Steve simply ended up releasing the game without either of them in place.


I really like the reworked ground units and don't miss PDCs at all since I feel that armed space stations and the new ground units together can fill all roles and Sci-Fi applications I can imagine ( and probably a few I can't imagine too ).