Author Topic: Any missile design guides/process/theory?  (Read 1682 times)

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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« on: November 09, 2020, 12:31:15 PM »
I'm getting back into Aurora after several years.     C# is actually kind of intuitive, but one thing I've NEVER gotten is missile design.     I have this ps. elasticbeanstalk.  com/aurora/AuroraMissileDesign. aspx but it's really useful for making things easier for people who know what they're doing.    Does anyone have any guidelines or anything they use when designing missiles?

This is also my first post on the forum after lurking the Bureau of Ship Design for ages.     If this is in the wrong section, please let me know.   

Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 12:38:45 PM by Iestwyn »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 12:49:51 PM »
AMMs should be fast and no more than 1 damage - missiles cannot be armored anymore.
Your missiles do not have to be integer sizes (you can now make and use a 1.25 MSP missile)
If you expect ECM missiles you might want you AMMs to have onboard ECCM (new in C#)

If you want to stick to the meta an ASMs damage should be square numbers - the square root of such a number gives you the missiles armor penetration
Think carefully about the speed of a missiles intended targets - if you are worried about enemy PD, mount ECM
Also consider the range that you want to engage at. If you can outrun the enemy then its enough to just barely outrange them, if you can't you probably want more leeway to launch more uncontested salvos.

For AMMs you should be trying to get a fire rate of 5-10s on your launcher - for ASMs people tend to go maximum size reduction in favor of less frequent but much larger salvos.
Do not be afraid to add multiple MFCs to your missile ships. Being able to split fire helps target multiple enemies but also to conserve ammo by avoiding overkill.
When adding a magazine consider how many full salvos you want the ship to be able to fire without having to rearm - I like to go for 10. Also do not add commercial magazines to warships as they will detonate and are space inefficient.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 01:17:21 PM »
This should be in the Academy sub-forum. I'm sure it'll be moved soon enough.

Droll's advice is sound.
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 01:53:50 PM »
Quote from: Garfunkel link=topic=12051. msg142796#msg142796 date=1604949441
This should be in the Academy sub-forum.  I'm sure it'll be moved soon enough.

Good to know where to go from now on; should I move it or will a mod do it?

Droll, thanks for all of this! That helps with speed and damage; what about the other figures, like fuel and agility?
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2020, 02:27:59 PM »
Quote from: Garfunkel link=topic=12051. msg142796#msg142796 date=1604949441
This should be in the Academy sub-forum.  I'm sure it'll be moved soon enough.

Good to know where to go from now on; should I move it or will a mod do it?

Droll, thanks for all of this! That helps with speed and damage; what about the other figures, like fuel and agility?

Fuel is easy to measure and is related to my advice regarding weapon range, if you want longer range you will inevitably add more fuel, however that takes space which means sacrifices must be made. It might also be worth considering mucking about with engine boost rate on the missile. But for AMMs the engine boost is probably going to be cranked to max every time.

Agility I actually do not know much about. The only thing it affects is missile accuracy, as far as I understand you always want some space for agility as it will significantly increase missile hit rates even in small amounts. It's particularly useful because at a certain point going faster than the enemy gives diminishing returns against ships. The best advice I can give you is to watch the % hit changes for different speed in the text field of the designer. You can use agility to min max some extra hit chance.
 
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Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2020, 03:10:23 PM »
Figuring out the balance of engine boost and fuel is what the designer is good for; the best value is USUALLY, but not always, max boost plus a weird size engine. But the missile designer will figure it out for you.

You can also ask it to maximize "Expected damage" against a target of known speed; this will find the optimal combination of engine boost, engine size, fuel allocation, agility, and warhead to be most efficient (literally, hit chance*warhead size) at a given range. But you may want to tweak the results based on how you expect enemy PD to perform, since I've not been too satisfied with its ability to handle that (there is an option to ask it to try and account for enemy PD).
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2020, 03:35:06 PM »
All this stuff is incredibly useful; thanks, guys!
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 03:50:48 PM »
Ok since I have done fair a bit of work on my ship/missile optimizer, let me share some of my experience.

Engine size/boost: straight forward. Larger engines are more powerful and less fuel-hungry (not significant), and a higher power boost provides more engine power at the cost of significantly more fuel consumption (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg102804#msg102804 for details). For AMMs and short-ranged ASMs, typically the max available power boost is the way to go.

Note that with the changes in C#, the max power boost tech not only impacts the max power boost available to missiles (of course) but also impacts the fuel consumption when you are not using the max power boost. For example, a missile engine with a 4x power boost will be more fuel-efficient when you have 3x max boost than when you only have 2x max boost. Thus, for missiles especially the ones that need a high boost, the engine boost tech research is more important than before.

Fuel: main parameter you want to tune to adjust a missile's range.

Agility: Together with a missile's speed, it determines the missile's accuracy (i.e., the highest target speed it can hit with 100% chance). The accuracy of a missile can be calculated as:
Code: [Select]
missile accuracy = missile speed * (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) / 100
where (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) is the maneuver rating of the missile or the 'MR' in the missile description text. Without any agility, a missile can hit a target whose speed is 10% of its own with 100% accuracy. Adding agility is a good way to improve the accuracy of a missile, as long as you don't do it too much. An additional note, the hit chances in the missile design text is also related to this:
Code: [Select]
missile to hit chance = missile speed / target speed * (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) / 100
Thus the hit chance against a 10kkm/s target is always half of that against a 5kkm/s target.

ECM/ECCM: This is new in C# (see http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg103096#msg103096 for details). In short, ECM on targets will decrease a missile's hit chance, and ECCM installed on a missile can counter that. One thing not explained in that post is that the ECM/ECCM effect is additive in the hit chance calculation. For example, if you have a missile that has 100% accuracy against 12kkm/s targets, and the target with ECM 20 travels at 10kkm/s, then the hit chance will be (12000 / 10000) - 20% = 100%. Assume you can modify that missile and trade some of its speed/agility for ECCM 20, but lower its 100% accuracy to 10kkm/s, then against the same target its hit chance will be (10000 / 10000) - (20%-20%) = 100%.

Sensors: Active/EM/TH sensor equipped missiles have the retargeting ability if their original target is destroyed or lost active contact (although they may not work well/at all in the current version of the game). For retargeting to work, the missiles first travel to the last known location of its original target, then start to use their onboard sensors to try to find new targets to strike. Sensorless missiles will self-destruct immediately when the target is lost. Onboard sensors are typically used for ASMs and mines, not useful at all for AMMs.

Missile design requires carefully balancing the above parameters to achieve (near) optimal performance. In general, for a single-stage missile, you can achieve 2 out of speed, range, accuracy, and damage. Thus, you need to define your missile's role before tweaking any parameters.

For AMMs, a 1-damage warhead is all you need. They should be short-ranged, and as accurate as possible. Usually, a tiny bit of fuel is enough for its range, and the rest of the design process is basically balancing engine size and agility size.

For ASMs, there are many more aspects to consider. They don't need to be as accurate as your AMMs since ships are typically much slower than missiles, but still need some agility to make sure they can hit intended targets with decent accuracy. Faster ASMs are harder for enemy PD to intercept, but their range is usually limited. If you have good ECM tech, you may want to equip them on larger ASMs to make them hard for the enemy to shoot down. Typically, you want an ASM to be as fast as possible while accurate enough to hit your intended target at your intended range.

Once you understand the basics, you can tweak the parameters to your liking somewhat easily. Missile calculators and optimizers can give you some idea of what you can achieve with your current tech. You can check out mine at http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10999.0.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 05:57:27 PM by Iceranger »
 
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Offline Iestwyn (OP)

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2020, 05:47:29 PM »
Holy crap, this is a lot of very useful stuff! Thanks so much!
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2020, 07:18:58 PM »
ECM/ECCM: This is new in C# (see http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg103096#msg103096 for details). In short, ECM on targets will decrease a missile's hit chance, and ECCM installed on a missile can counter that. One thing not explained in that post is that the ECM/ECCM effect is additive in the hit chance calculation. For example, if you have a missile that has 100% accuracy against 12kkm/s targets, and the target with ECM 20 travels at 10kkm/s, then the hit chance will be (12000 / 10000) - 20% = 100%. Assume you can modify that missile and trade some of its speed/agility for ECCM 20, but lower its 100% accuracy to 10kkm/s, then against the same target its hit chance will be (10000 / 10000) - (20%-20%) = 100%.

One thing to add to this is that ECCM on your missiles is not a substitute for ECCM on MFCs. An enemy ship equipped with ECM will avoid more missiles but also reduce the range of MFCs which have inadequate ECCM.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 07:55:45 PM »
Agility: Together with a missile's speed, it determines the missile's accuracy (i.e., the highest target speed it can hit with 100% chance). The accuracy of a missile can be calculated as:
Code: [Select]
missile accuracy = missile speed * (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) / 100
where (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) is the maneuver rating of the missile or the 'MR' in the missile description text. Without any agility, a missile can hit a target whose speed is 10% of its own with 100% accuracy. Adding agility is a good way to improve the accuracy of a missile, as long as you don't do it too much. An additional note, the hit chances in the missile design text is also related to this:
Code: [Select]
missile to hit chance = missile speed / target speed * (10 + agility / missile size in MSP) / 100
Thus the hit chance against a 10kkm/s target is always half of that against a 5kkm/s target.

I wanted to add a couple of points as Iceranger's comment is excellent already.

Regarding Agility, the quantity
Code: [Select]
(10 + agility / missile size in MSP) is what's called the Maneuver Rating (MR) and is actually shown in-game on the missile design window. The MR is always rounded to the nearest whole number, which leads to specific agility breakpoints depending on the missile size between which any extra Agility MSP is essentially wasted space. If you're designing missiles without a calculator it's important to be aware of this as you can squeeze a bit more accuracy or range by using those MSPs for fuel or engine instead.

A very general rule of thumb for maximizing missile accuracy is to have a roughly 2:1 ratio of engine to agility MSP. There's not a strict mathematical analysis to support this, it just tends to happen that the optimal ratios come out close to this. This means that if you want to design missiles "by hand" without using a calculator or spreadsheet, a reasonable approach is to set your warhead or other payload size, split the rest of the MSPs in this 2:1 ratio, reduce the agility MSP to a breakpoint, and then use the extra space for fuel. If you're happy with the range you've got a decent design, otherwise you can drop down to the next agility breakpoint and fiddle with fuel + engine MSP until you have the range you want.
 
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Offline Zap0

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2020, 03:51:15 AM »
I tend to fiddle around with different agility ratings until I'm in the "sweet spot" where the hit rate is the highest, but if you do that you might as well use a calculator. What the optimal ratio is always depends on your relative tech levels of engines and agility.

Missiles in general should be as fast as possible (duh), meaning use max boost as much as possible. If you're serious about wanting more missile range, look into multi-stage missiles.
AMMs should generally aim for maximum accuracy, that means they'll want to be at that optimized sweet spot. Range roughly equal or a bit above your missile detection range, maybe 1m-2m at the earlier tech levels. Since they have a 1-str warhead they shouldn't exceed 1 MSP in size. 1 MSP is the minimum missile launcher size.
The primary defense of your missile is it's speed, as such it's more important for your ASMs to have high speed than AMMs and they're indeed often faster in my games. In general, aim for near maximum speed, you don't necessarily know what you'll be fighting against and your missiles aren't going to be having 100% hit rate unless you're hitting a freighter, in which case, why are you wasting ammo? You may still want some agility on your ASMs to make each unit more efficient, but how much is a defense-offense consideration.

More missiles are also better than bigger missiles, since a small missile is exactly as hard to shoot down as a big missile.
 
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 04:07:43 AM »
I don't use missiles much, however, something that has not been said so far and it is equally important is that you also need to think at your missiles as Salvos.

When planning your missiles you need to ensure you can fire several of them, especially at lower techs.

If you cannot build the super fast AMM to shoot down a missile in one go build 1 which you can fire 2 at 75% chance.

If you need to pass AMM defenses with your ASM but they too slow, plan smaller missiles but double your alpha strike to overwhelm the enemy's PD capability.

There are multiple ways to skin a cat when it comes to missiles, while Beams are just more straightforward IMHO.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 04:11:40 AM by froggiest1982 »
 
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Offline Iceranger

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Re: Any missile design guides/process/theory?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2020, 09:44:49 AM »
Missiles in general should be as fast as possible (duh), meaning use max boost as much as possible. If you're serious about wanting more missile range, look into multi-stage missiles.
Depends on your missile size and intended role, the max boost might be optimal for several million km of range. Above that, the optimal engine boost is typically lower.

The primary defense of your missile is its speed
For ASMs large enough (say size 6), ECM is a reasonably good counter to enemy beam PD.

In general, aim for near maximum speed, you don't necessarily know what you'll be fighting against and your missiles aren't going to be having 100% hit rate unless you're hitting a freighter, in which case, why are you wasting ammo? You may still want some agility on your ASMs to make each unit more efficient, but how much is a defense-offense consideration.

This is incorrect based on my optimization results. Faster, less accurate ASMs are indeed harder to shoot down, but their inaccuracy could make them less efficient. So there is a balance between the two (speed and accuracy). When your agility tech is on par with your engine tech, the optimal point is typically ensuring 100% hit chance against your intended target, while being as fast as possible.
 
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