Author Topic: Further Discussion on Titan Plausibility  (Read 13894 times)

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Offline TallTroll

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2016, 01:45:52 PM »
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Put the gun in a pod which you can raise and lower and give the commander and gunner periscopes.  Much less mechanical complexity than a mech.

Yes, but a pretty impractical solution. Firstly, it makes the turret/pod very much more massive and complex to maintain than a conventional turret. Secondly, you are pretty much guaranteeing you *have* to use dry ammo storage, which it turns out is a catastrophically bad (almost literally) design choice. By the time you've overdesigned everything to make your gun pod usable, you probably might have just as well designed a mech, which gets the capability for free as a consequence of its' chassis design.

I do know what you are getting at, but here it just adds design constraints to an already pretty constrained design, and parasitic weight penalties quickly make the whole concept unworkable, compared to a new design which gets the capability just because it is what it is

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the number of legs necessary to get the ground pressure down to where you can function on mud is going to be large enough that I think it will start to look tracked.

A mech chassis doesn't have a hull bottom. Ground pressure is much less of an issue than it is for wheeled or tracked vehicles, because it won't get grounded. A walking device can just use a high-stepping gait (up to a point - eventually you'll get stuck), and doesn't rely so much on friction. Mud and the like is MUCH less of a hindrance than it is for conventional designs. Similarly in heavy forest, or very rugged terrain, a walking gait can let you traverse ground that tracked or wheeled vehicles just can't cope with at all. It might not be very fast or efficient, but it's better than just considering the terrain impassable

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That doesn't work nearly as well in reality as it seems like it should.

Strongly disagree here. Shock effect is the basis of pretty much all armoured warfare doctrine, and has been since the French got rekt in 3 weeks. It is the entire point of any armoured force.

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Also, we could build such things today (with tracks, not legs) and don't.  I think you gave the German ultra-heavies as an example.

We don't because of politics, national and international, ad economics, not because we can't, or think they wouldn't work. Super heavies are only useful for breaking very strong fortifications, or fighting "standard" armour. The world has seen precisely zero "real" wars since the end of WW2, so there has been no imperative to design or build Supers since. Even so, the US did design and build both the Super Pershing and the T28/T95. The T28/T95 only got as far as the prototype stage when the Siegfried Line fell (it's intended job). The T26 Super Pershings did see a little combat in WW2, and a little more in Korea, where they utterly outclassed the T34-85s of the Koreans - the tanks that had been the largely undisputed kings of the WW2 battlefield.

If we did enter another large-scale, protracted war (taking years, not weeks or months) that somehow became a battle of fixed positions and attrition, you would see exactly the same sorts of designs re-emerge, updated for the then-current situation. Unless such a war occurs, there would be no actual requirement for super-heavies. Given that they are very much more expensive, and once built would be going obsolete as you looked at them, the second they rolled off the line, there just hasn't been any reason to build one. I bet a few design studies exist though, tucked away in various draws across the world. Just in case.

Aurora does present such situations though. Planets can be considered "fixed positions", and the timescales and distances involved make super-heavy forces attractive options
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2016, 02:15:46 PM »
Actually I'm pretty sure the air force breaks fortifications much better than super heavy tanks could these days.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2016, 02:17:47 PM »
what screws super heavies is that armor only goes so far. Super heavies are just as vulnerable to mobility kills, disabling, artillery fire, and airplanes/helos as a normal tank - meanwhile they are MUCH more difficult to move around (because of sheer tonnage and size) and require an additional logistical infrastructure of super heavy recovery vehicles.

 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2016, 02:18:40 PM »
Yes, but a pretty impractical solution. Firstly, it makes the turret/pod very much more massive and complex to maintain than a conventional turret. Secondly, you are pretty much guaranteeing you *have* to use dry ammo storage, which it turns out is a catastrophically bad (almost literally) design choice. By the time you've overdesigned everything to make your gun pod usable, you probably might have just as well designed a mech, which gets the capability for free as a consequence of its' chassis design.
Surely you're joking.  Even if we did essentially mount the entire turret as it exists now on jacks, it wouldn't approach the complexity of a mech's legs and other control systems.  The chassis design costs so much that 'free' benefits like being able to crouch are fairly pointless.
But we don't have to do that.  Instead, we remove the men from the turret, and leave them in the body of the tank.  The gun (with autoloader) is on its own, and much smaller.  Also, the M1 doesn't use wet storage, and I know of several cases where the ammo cooked off and the crew were fine.  There have been moderately serious plans to do pretty much what I'm describing here.

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I do know what you are getting at, but here it just adds design constraints to an already pretty constrained design, and parasitic weight penalties quickly make the whole concept unworkable, compared to a new design which gets the capability just because it is what it is
This is very amusing.  Do you have any idea how much mechanical complexity is involved in making a flexible walking machine?  Now, instead of being a few hundred pounds, make it tens of tons.  Oh, and it has to work on the battlefield, with mud, and dirt, and small amounts of damage.  Suggesting that adding a jack-mounted turret to a tank is going to be much, much worse is completely absurd.  'Before you remove the speck from your brother's eye' and all.

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A mech chassis doesn't have a hull bottom. Ground pressure is much less of an issue than it is for wheeled or tracked vehicles, because it won't get grounded.
???
I don't think you understand how ground pressure works.

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A walking device can just use a high-stepping gait (up to a point - eventually you'll get stuck), and doesn't rely so much on friction.
Conservation of momentum.  You have to push on the ground somehow to go forward, and I can't see any reason why you'd do better with shoes than with wheels/tracks before starting to slip.  Unless you can think of another way to generate said force, you're stuck with friction and close cousins.

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Mud and the like is MUCH less of a hindrance than it is for conventional designs. Similarly in heavy forest, or very rugged terrain, a walking gait can let you traverse ground that tracked or wheeled vehicles just can't cope with at all. It might not be very fast or efficient, but it's better than just considering the terrain impassable
And yet, on moderately good terrain, the wheeled/tracked vehicles will be much faster.  Assuming, of course, that you haven't gotten stuck in the mud they went straight through.

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Strongly disagree here. Shock effect is the basis of pretty much all armoured warfare doctrine, and has been since the French got rekt in 3 weeks. It is the entire point of any armoured force.
That particular doctrine worked exactly twice.  In Poland, because the Poles were horribly outgunned, and in France due to insane luck.  Every other armored campaign of the war was decided by combined arms and slower movement. 

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We don't because of politics, national and international, ad economics, not because we can't, or think they wouldn't work.
That's not what you were talking about earlier:
2) Tactically, Titans would be like the proposed WW2 German super-super-heavies (P.1000 / P.1500).
Attempting to bamboozle me with tales of conventional heavy tanks won't work.  I know armored history better than that.

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Super heavies are only useful for breaking very strong fortifications, or fighting "standard" armour. The world has seen precisely zero "real" wars since the end of WW2, so there has been no imperative to design or build Supers since.
Right.  The 45 years we spent staring at the Russians in Central Europe produced no imperative to plan for serious armored combat.

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Even so, the US did design and build both the Super Pershing and the T28/T95. The T28/T95 only got as far as the prototype stage when the Siegfried Line fell (it's intended job).
The T28 was an assault gun, not a tank.  And its job got taken by better tank guns and things like ATGMs.
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The T26 Super Pershings did see a little combat in WW2, and a little more in Korea, where they utterly outclassed the T34-85s of the Koreans - the tanks that had been the largely undisputed kings of the WW2 battlefield.
I'm beginning to wonder if you're actually getting this many errors in on accident.  There was no 'Super Pershing'.  The T26 was a prototype of the M26 Pershing, a conventional heavy tank.  Of course it beat the T-34, which was a pretty good medium tank with a vastly overinflated reputation.  It was not 'the undisputed king of the battlefield'.  Version-for-version, the Sherman was better (this is true, look up actual numbers, not to mention what Soviet guards units were using), to say nothing of actual heavy tanks (or the Panther).

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If we did enter another large-scale, protracted war (taking years, not weeks or months) that somehow became a battle of fixed positions and attrition, you would see exactly the same sorts of designs re-emerge, updated for the then-current situation.
Now you're just being obtuse.  The MBT has replaced those as tanks, for a lot of reasons, which I'm not going to bother going into.  Other weapons have rendered them pointless in other roles.  And tank development takes longer than you think.

Actually I'm pretty sure the air force breaks fortifications much better than super heavy tanks could these days.
There are a lot of reasons that heavy tanks went away, and only the Germans ever built proper superheavies (Maus).  The problem with titan-scale things is that they're too vulnerable to air forces.
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Offline 83athom

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2016, 03:33:03 PM »
Going to largely agree with bryon here. However.
There was no 'Super Pershing'.  The T26 was a prototype of the M26 Pershing, a conventional heavy tank.  Of course it beat the T-34, which was a pretty good medium tank with a vastly overinflated reputation.  It was not 'the undisputed king of the battlefield'.  Version-for-version, the Sherman was better (this is true, look up actual numbers, not to mention what Soviet guards units were using), to say nothing of actual heavy tanks (or the Panther).
Technically there was a Super Pershing. It was a modification to the T25/T26 changing the barrel of the gun and welding armor plates onto the mantlet and upper/lower glacis (increasing the angle of the front armor drastically).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M26_Pershing#/media/File:M26_Super_Pershing.jpg
And the Sherman was really only superior in its designed roll; rushing through breaks in the enemy line to attack supply lines, flanks, etc. And strength in numbers. Otherwise, they were outmatched in mostly every way by Soviet/German counterparts (except mobility).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 03:36:49 PM by 83athom »
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Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2016, 04:21:25 PM »
Going to largely agree with bryon here. However.Technically there was a Super Pershing. It was a modification to the T25/T26 changing the barrel of the gun and welding armor plates onto the mantlet and upper/lower glacis (increasing the angle of the front armor drastically).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M26_Pershing#/media/File:M26_Super_Pershing.jpg
Interesting.  I didn't know about the gun program, and the name was strictly informal.  The armor is field add-on.  But I do maintain that it wasn't different enough from the conventional Pershing to be treated separately.  And it certainly didn't serve in Korea.

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And the Sherman was really only superior in its designed roll; rushing through breaks in the enemy line to attack supply lines, flanks, etc. And strength in numbers. Otherwise, they were outmatched in mostly every way by Soviet/German counterparts (except mobility).
A common myth, but not true.  It was designed primarily as an infantry support vehicle, because American doctrine at the time said that tank destroyers were supposed to kill tanks.  In fairness to them, they had no experience and only a few years to thought to draw on. 
As for its superiority over the T-34, I can point again to the Soviet units Shermans were given to: the 1st Guards Mechanized Corps, 3rd Guards Mechanized Corps, and 9th Guards Mechanized Corps, all of which were elite units.  Actions speak louder than words, and the Soviet actions were pretty clear here. 
And it was definitely at least on par in terms of armor to its contemporaries, both German and Soviet:
Sherman: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/united-states/vehicle/medium-tank/m4-medium-tank.asp
T-34: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/soviet-union/vehicle/medium-tank/t-34-76-1941-medium-tank.asp
Panzer IV: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/vehicle/medium-tank/pzkpfw-iv-ausf-f1-medium-tank.asp
All of these should be approximately the 1941 models.  They're pretty similar in terms of overall armor.  Add in that Soviet metallurgy was appalling, and I'd really rather be in the Sherman.  (Or the PzKpfw IV, but nobody sings the praises of that).  I suspect that some of the claims of the T-34s invincibility were Soviet propaganda.  Proving-ground tests don't bear them out.
Armament is much the same story.  The M3 on the Sherman had similar armor penetration using a conventional APC round to the F-34 on the T-34 using HVAP (tungsten-core).  The German gun mounted in 1941 was considerably worse than the M3, although they later up-gunned to one that is broadly equivalent to the 76mm Sherman.
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Offline jem

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2016, 05:07:29 PM »
Largely agreeing with byron (as well....) but:

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Add in that Soviet metallurgy was appalling, and I'd really rather be in the Sherman.

This is just another myth spread by the Germans at the time. Soviet metalwork might not have been top of the world, but it was rather good. And the t34 were the king of the battlefield, mostly because there were so many of them and that they were soooooo cheap. And very resistant to the standard shells of the 5 and 7.5 cm used during the invasion.  Still rather be in a sherman (or you know, a Tiger 2 bc it would break down and then I would not have to fight.........)

Also:
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Mud and the like is MUCH less of a hindrance than it is for conventional designs. Similarly in heavy forest, or very rugged terrain, a walking gait can let you traverse ground that tracked or wheeled vehicles just can't cope with at all. It might not be very fast or efficient, but it's better than just considering the terrain impassable

The problem with moving through a heavy forest is not that you have to move over things, it is that there are things you have to move around (or, you know, chop down......)
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2016, 05:30:58 PM »
Largely agreeing with byron (as well....) but:

This is just another myth spread by the Germans at the time. Soviet metalwork might not have been top of the world, but it was rather good.
Well, I found a report that describes Soviet metallurgy as being rather variable (apologies for the poor copy):
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/011426.pdf
That's a US report based on lab evaluations of Soviet tanks, so German propaganda doesn't enter into it. 

 
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And the t34 were the king of the battlefield, mostly because there were so many of them and that they were soooooo cheap.
You're sort of double-counting there.  Cost is one of the main factors determining how many tanks could be deployed.  The US had different drivers, which meant that the absolute cheapest tank wasn't the best for us.  But by this logic, the Sherman definitely shares that crown.

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And very resistant to the standard shells of the 5 and 7.5 cm used during the invasion.
I suspect that the variety of stories on this has to do with the variable quality of the armor.  If it's a tank with good armor, then a bunch of low-velocity 75 mm shells bounce off.  If it's got poor armor, a Pak 38 knocks it out.  Each side points to the one that supports its position.  Also, Soviet tankers weren't able to gripe in their memoirs.  I point again to the Sherman's use by the Guard Corps.  If they'd thought the T-34 was better, they were in a good position to demand them instead, and they didn't.
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Offline 83athom

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2016, 07:58:21 PM »
Interesting.  I didn't know about the gun program, and the name was strictly informal.
The gun change was so big, those tubes on top are actually springs to keep the gun up and stable. And there were 2 extra 38mm plates mounted on the glacises, each an extra ~15 degrees sloping (don't quote me on that, the sloping) more than the last, giving it redementary spaced armor. So you effectively had a 38mm plate at a high angle, a space, another 38mm plate at a slightly less high angle, a smaller space, then the front of the hull. And the extra turret armor was pulled from Panther tanks, so an additional 80mm of mantlet armor.
A common myth, but not true.  It was designed primarily as an infantry support vehicle, because American doctrine at the time said that tank destroyers were supposed to kill tanks.  In fairness to them, they had no experience and only a few years to thought to draw on.
Yes, I agree that against early war vehicles, they were supreme. And yes, I know there were special anti-tank vehicles (tank destroyers such as the M10 and M18 and their varients) used by the US to combat tanks. However, by the time the US's Sherman got over there and started fighting in Europe (not counting the USSR/UK Shermans that were modified), other sides were using vehicles such as the Tiger, Panther, T34-85, KV-85 (IS1) which totally outmatched the Shermans in armor and weapons. The Sherman however did have the mobility and numbers advantage over Germany's tanks, but they needed the numbers advantage every time they went against such beasts (which is a lot fewer times than many people would think). However, the Shermans that were then mounted with the long 76 guns were able to at least penetrate and kill Panthers and Tigers, but many of the crews wouldn't give up their short 75s because they would then lose their HE effectiveness with the new gun.
And yes, the soviet metallurgy at the time was quite appalling (and not mythical propaganda), but when you see 1 T34, there is bound to be another few thousand around the corner. And the reason the Gaurds Corps used the Sheramans was because their job was to operate behind enemy lines for extended amounts of time, the sole role the Sherman was specifically designed to do, whereas the T34s were literally designed to throw at the enemy lines until they broke (the enemy lines or the T34s)(and extended trips the Sherman tanks could do were lethal to T34s).

Do we need another split topic for talking about WWII tanks?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 08:09:41 PM by 83athom »
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Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2016, 08:21:22 PM »
The gun change was so big, those tubes on top are actually springs to keep the gun up and stable. And there were 2 extra 38mm plates mounted on the glacises, each an extra ~15 degrees sloping (don't quote me on that, the sloping) more than the last, giving it redementary spaced armor. So you effectively had a 38mm plate at a high angle, a space, another 38mm plate at a slightly less high angle, a smaller space, then the front of the hull. And the extra turret armor was pulled from Panther tanks, so an additional 80mm of mantlet armor.
I have access to all the Hunnicutt books (the standard reference on US armor design.)  As I pointed out, the extra armor was a field mod, not official.  And it did bad things to the suspension, which is a serious concern in production vehicles.

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However, by the time the US's Sherman got over there and started fighting in Europe (not counting the USSR/UK Shermans that were modified), other sides were using vehicles such as the Tiger, Panther, T34-85, KV-85 (IS1) which totally outmatched the Shermans in armor and weapons.
The 76mm gun Sherman was superior to the T-34/85, although it did take a bit longer to get there.  The Panther was a bit of a revolutionary leap (although never available in the numbers needed) and the others are all heavies.  The US decided not to go for heavies because of shipping limitations and the theory that tank destroyers would deal with them.  In practice, it was a good plan.  Most of the time, it was US infantry+Shermans vs German infantry with no tanks.

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The Sherman however did have the mobility and numbers advantage over Germany's tanks, but they needed the numbers advantage every time they went against such beasts (which is a lot fewer times than many people would think).
This is the key point, actually.

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However, the Shermans that were then mounted with the long 76 guns were able to at least penetrate and kill Panthers and Tigers, but many of the crews wouldn't give up their short 75s because they would then lose their HE effectiveness with the new gun.
Not just that, Army Ground Forces really didn't want to lose that fantastic HE round.

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And yes, the soviet metallurgy at the time was quite appalling (and not mythical propaganda), but when you see 1 T34, there is bound to be another few thousand around the corner.
Applies just as much to the Sherman.  (Well, the bit about another few thousand around the corner.)

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And the reason the Gaurds Corps used the Sheramans was because their job was to operate behind enemy lines for extended amounts of time, the sole role the Sherman was specifically designed to do, whereas the T34s were literally designed to throw at the enemy lines until they broke (the enemy lines or the T34s)(and extended trips the Sherman tanks could do were lethal to T34s).
An interesting theory, and one I hadn't heard before.  Unfortunately, it falls afoul of two factors:
1. Tanks didn't operate that way, except in France, when the Germans really, really should have lost or been stalemated.  For that matter, I don't think that was US Army doctrine at the time the Sherman was designed.
2. The T-34's range is twice that of the Sherman, even the model supplied to the Russians.
That said, it's an interesting idea, and I'm not an expert on WWII armor development.  Sources?

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Do we need another split topic for talking about WWII tanks?
Quite possibly.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 08:27:45 PM by byron »
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Offline jem

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2016, 05:49:28 AM »
Well, I found a report that describes Soviet metallurgy as being rather variable (apologies for the poor copy):
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/011426.pdf
That's a US report based on lab evaluations of Soviet tanks, so German propaganda doesn't enter into it. 
Interesting read. Seems most of the "shoddy" metalwork was a product of rushed production and availability of metals and tools/people at the specific factory rather then a lack of knowledge. Same as german metalwork late in the war then. Really not worthy of the word "abysmal". Also, most of the shells studied had been captured in korea, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the soviets had started there long habit of not really giving away there best stuff to its allies by then.

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You're sort of double-counting there.  Cost is one of the main factors determining how many tanks could be deployed.  The US had different drivers, which meant that the absolute cheapest tank wasn't the best for us.  But by this logic, the Sherman definitely shares that crown.
Bad choice of words from me there, meant more of a 'because'. And don't get me wrong, sherman was a really good tank, just not quite as.

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I suspect that the variety of stories on this has to do with the variable quality of the armor.  If it's a tank with good armor, then a bunch of low-velocity 75 mm shells bounce off.  If it's got poor armor, a Pak 38 knocks it out.  Each side points to the one that supports its position.  Also, Soviet tankers weren't able to gripe in their memoirs.  I point again to the Sherman's use by the Guard Corps.  If they'd thought the T-34 was better, they were in a good position to demand them instead, and they didn't.

Remember what the german army were expecting to meet, things like the horrible t-28. And then you suddenly meet a kv1 at really long range and no mater how many shoots you fire into it it will not explode or go up in flames. Same with the t34, a tank that accelerated when you killed its driver.

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The 76mm gun Sherman was superior to the T-34/85, although it did take a bit longer to get there.
Eeee, agree to disagree on this one.

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    The Sherman however did have the mobility and numbers advantage over Germany's tanks, but they needed the numbers advantage every time they went against such beasts (which is a lot fewer times than many people would think).

This is the key point, actually.

Some time after the war ended the swedish army tested a Sherman, a Panther and Strv m/42 (basicly a LT-38 copy) for cross-country capability. Lets say that the sherman dont fare very well. The link I had to the report has sadly been subject to link rot but here is a information film about it.

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     However, the Shermans that were then mounted with the long 76 guns were able to at least penetrate and kill Panthers and Tigers, but many of the crews wouldn't give up their short 75s because they would then lose their HE effectiveness with the new gun.

Not just that, Army Ground Forces really didn't want to lose that fantastic HE round.

If I remember correctly this changed rather drasticly when the allies started pushing out of france and they could no longer flank the german tanks as easily.

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And the reason the Gaurds Corps used the Sheramans was because their job was to operate behind enemy lines for extended amounts of time, the sole role the Sherman was specifically designed to do, whereas the T34s were literally designed to throw at the enemy lines until they broke (the enemy lines or the T34s)(and extended trips the Sherman tanks could do were lethal to T34s).

Heard that it had more to do with crew comfort more then anything else.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2016, 06:15:07 AM »
Okay, please make a new thread for WW2 tanks, I'm dying to sperg out but I don't want to push this thread any further off-topic!
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2016, 06:34:45 AM »
1. Tanks didn't operate that way, except in France, when the Germans really, really should have lost or been stalemated.  For that matter, I don't think that was US Army doctrine at the time the Sherman was designed.
Actually, that was the US's tank doctrine at the time because the generals in charge (Patton for example) were cavalry officers. An a thing about the US R&D is that they fulfill the needs the commanders need at the moment for what they need to do. The cavalry officers wanted a tank that was ultra reliable and fast/maneuverable that they can rush through breaks in the line made by infantry. The Sherman was born.

"Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword"

2. The T-34's range is twice that of the Sherman, even the model supplied to the Russians.
It wasn't a matter of range, it was a matter of reliability. The T35s would break down and have to be abandoned (and were plenty of times) long before they ever reached the Sherman's top range (which was extended by jerrycans and supply trucks they would bring along).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 07:18:17 AM by 83athom »
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2016, 07:06:32 AM »
Okay, please make a new thread for WW2 tanks, I'm dying to sperg out but I don't want to push this thread any further off-topic!

I split out both Titans and WW2 tanks into a single thread (this one).  If y'all want another thread I can split that out too, but I didn't see a crisp break at the Titans --> Tanks segue (plus the segue didn't seem to branch into multiple thread heads), so I figured I'd keep them both together for now.

John
 

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Re: Further Discussion on Titan Plausibility
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2016, 08:08:00 AM »
Although possibly this thread now belongs more in Chat than Mechanics?