Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions  (Read 345301 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline alex_brunius

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1240
  • Thanked: 153 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #510 on: September 08, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »
There are pros and cons both ways. For example, it might be odd from a player perspective if you knew there were 100 factories on a planet last time you checked but now you have no idea because you dropped below the level where that information is available. Either way, it is a compromise.

Could it be handled the same way you do with legacy data?

"The information regarding a specific population will remain static if ELINT monitoring ends but will be updated once an ELINT ship is back in range."

Ideally if you drop below the level where it's displayed what could happens is you still see the latest known amount but with some note after it saying something like "( old data from year X month Y )"
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Moderator
  • Star Marshal
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 11649
  • Thanked: 20350 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #511 on: September 08, 2018, 01:41:20 PM »
I'm not sure I like the idea of having the modules act as EM sensors. I'd rather they used the vessel's EM sensor rating instead as that avoids having to choose between having a large EM sensor to pick up foreign vessels and populations or a large number of ELINT modules to gather intelligence from great range.

It is to avoid the situation of detecting ELINT emissions from something that hasn't been detected any other way. By making them EM sensors too, that can't happen. Also provides a useful backup if the primary sensors go down.

I don't want ELINT to use the ship's primary sensors as that would make ELINT too powerful. Currently it is 1/10th of normal EM capability.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Moderator
  • Star Marshal
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 11649
  • Thanked: 20350 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #512 on: September 08, 2018, 01:41:53 PM »
There are pros and cons both ways. For example, it might be odd from a player perspective if you knew there were 100 factories on a planet last time you checked but now you have no idea because you dropped below the level where that information is available. Either way, it is a compromise.

Could it be handled the same way you do with legacy data?

"The information regarding a specific population will remain static if ELINT monitoring ends but will be updated once an ELINT ship is back in range."

Ideally if you drop below the level where it's displayed what could happens is you still see the latest known amount but with some note after it saying something like "( old data from year X month Y )"

Yes, after I posted it struck me I could probably do this.
 

Offline Hazard

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • H
  • Posts: 643
  • Thanked: 73 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #513 on: September 08, 2018, 04:34:30 PM »
It is to avoid the situation of detecting ELINT emissions from something that hasn't been detected any other way. By making them EM sensors too, that can't happen. Also provides a useful backup if the primary sensors go down.

I don't want ELINT to use the ship's primary sensors as that would make ELINT too powerful. Currently it is 1/10th of normal EM capability.

This can be handled by 1) making it impossible to gather ELINT without the ship receiving EM sensor readings and by an 'efficiency' modifier that restricts the ELINT module from operating above an effective 1/10th the ship's sensor rating.

Of course, I've no idea how you are programming ships to interact with their own parts so I don't know if this sort of dependency is possible.
 

Offline alex_brunius

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1240
  • Thanked: 153 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #514 on: September 08, 2018, 05:41:38 PM »
I don't want ELINT to use the ship's primary sensors as that would make ELINT too powerful. Currently it is 1/10th of normal EM capability.

I agree, IMO this makes alot of sense logically as well. Regardless of what type of sensor you use your not going to be learning much about a sensor contact at absolute maximum range where you pick up a signal that's just faint enough for you to even be able to tell that something is there.
 

Offline QuakeIV

  • Registered
  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 759
  • Thanked: 168 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #515 on: September 08, 2018, 07:12:02 PM »
Is there any way we could have the ability to detect/estimate weapon loadouts?  There are lots of other things that would be nice to detect in addition to that, but I'd argue that would be one of the most useful ones.

Alternatively, maybe have the intel rating be an empire wide thing, and it decays as a result of new sensor designs or techs?  I think its reasonable to say that an empire would generally follow certain design motifs, and thusly it would be fair to say that if you have seen most of their sensors for a time, you have effectively seen all of them.

As it is I find it hard to see myself making much use out of the ELINT modules, unless the stealth bonus is really really massive.  Because as it is it kindof sounds like the enemy not using certain sensors most of the time, or spending a month developing some new one, could completely invalidate your intel gathering efforts.  I tend not to use my really big sensors most of the time even as it is unless I passively detect a reason to turn them on, to avoid making a target out of the sensor ships.

e:  regarding using regular sensors as the intel modules, perhaps the ELINT modules are these big old analysis computer banks you have to add in addition to the sensors they use?  then they gather intel based on what sensors are detecting the enemy, and the quality of the intel is based on how well you are detecting the enemy.  for instance, perhaps a percentage of how much your sensor is overkill for a particular detection.  it sounds more elegant to me, but I freely admit that I could be wrong on that.  im a bit sleep deprived you see.

e2: ok done editing
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:19:58 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Moderator
  • Star Marshal
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 11649
  • Thanked: 20350 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #516 on: September 09, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
There are pros and cons both ways. For example, it might be odd from a player perspective if you knew there were 100 factories on a planet last time you checked but now you have no idea because you dropped below the level where that information is available. Either way, it is a compromise.

Could it be handled the same way you do with legacy data?

"The information regarding a specific population will remain static if ELINT monitoring ends but will be updated once an ELINT ship is back in range."

Ideally if you drop below the level where it's displayed what could happens is you still see the latest known amount but with some note after it saying something like "( old data from year X month Y )"

I've updated the original rules post with the following:

The intelligence points for a specific population will reduce at approximately 25% per year if ELINT monitoring ends. The information that was gained while intelligence points were at their highest point will remain and is shown in red when viewing the alien population on the Diplomacy window. Current information is shown in green.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

  • Captain
  • **********
  • c
  • Posts: 544
  • Thanked: 39 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #517 on: September 10, 2018, 06:38:28 AM »
Really like the ELINT plans although must admit I will miss the old teams on the ground; have had some good RP fun with them in the past. A couple more thoughts on the current rules:

- Not done any looking at the maths of relative EM emissions of a decent planet versus their typical thermal detection range but with revisions to passive sensor range I'm wondering how practical it will really be to get a ship able to collect points without being readily detected by the hostile planet. Look forward to seeing how that works on playtesting.

- Are you considering a ground installation version of this or to have it as a ground unit type? I could happily see people wanting to drop of units or an installation on an out of the way asteroid somewhere to be able to snoop on other races and would hope that also changes the interplay on thermal detection range and sensor range per the above point.

- Whilst probably not wanting to get into the world of encryption I wonder if a very high tier of points could be classed as you having cracked their communications and hence be able to obtain a chance of seeing orders issued to ships or units.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Moderator
  • Star Marshal
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 11649
  • Thanked: 20350 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #518 on: September 10, 2018, 06:56:11 AM »
Really like the ELINT plans although must admit I will miss the old teams on the ground; have had some good RP fun with them in the past. A couple more thoughts on the current rules:

- Not done any looking at the maths of relative EM emissions of a decent planet versus their typical thermal detection range but with revisions to passive sensor range I'm wondering how practical it will really be to get a ship able to collect points without being readily detected by the hostile planet. Look forward to seeing how that works on playtesting.

- Are you considering a ground installation version of this or to have it as a ground unit type? I could happily see people wanting to drop of units or an installation on an out of the way asteroid somewhere to be able to snoop on other races and would hope that also changes the interplay on thermal detection range and sensor range per the above point.

- Whilst probably not wanting to get into the world of encryption I wonder if a very high tier of points could be classed as you having cracked their communications and hence be able to obtain a chance of seeing orders issued to ships or units.

I am considering ground and installation versions of ELINT.

I also considered having encryption and decryption research projects, but for the moment decided that was too much micromanagement. The modification based on Xenophobia is intended to simulate that races concerned about aliens would invest into more secure communications and restrict public information. If I get back into government types, I might use that instead.
 

Offline Whitecold

  • Commander
  • *********
  • W
  • Posts: 330
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #519 on: September 10, 2018, 10:27:22 AM »
Really like the ELINT plans although must admit I will miss the old teams on the ground; have had some good RP fun with them in the past. A couple more thoughts on the current rules:

- Not done any looking at the maths of relative EM emissions of a decent planet versus their typical thermal detection range but with revisions to passive sensor range I'm wondering how practical it will really be to get a ship able to collect points without being readily detected by the hostile planet. Look forward to seeing how that works on playtesting.

- Are you considering a ground installation version of this or to have it as a ground unit type? I could happily see people wanting to drop of units or an installation on an out of the way asteroid somewhere to be able to snoop on other races and would hope that also changes the interplay on thermal detection range and sensor range per the above point.

- Whilst probably not wanting to get into the world of encryption I wonder if a very high tier of points could be classed as you having cracked their communications and hence be able to obtain a chance of seeing orders issued to ships or units.

I am considering ground and installation versions of ELINT.

I also considered having encryption and decryption research projects, but for the moment decided that was too much micromanagement. The modification based on Xenophobia is intended to simulate that races concerned about aliens would invest into more secure communications and restrict public information. If I get back into government types, I might use that instead.
Is not Electronic a misnomer both for ELINT and EM sensors? Active sensors are FTL, and so seems to be interstellar communication.
I doubt much electronic information can be gathered from a single planet, as any advanced civilization will likely put as much as possible of their internal communications into optical fibers, or short range radios that are highly focused on satellites for uplink, and pointed at the planet from satellites to ground.
This only really leaves communications between systems to be intercepted, but at these ranges, you likely aim at the entire system, and not anything in particular in it. Also, since every unit has comm gear that can pick up interstellar communication, it does not seem like you need special antennas for picking up that kind of transmission.
 

Offline TCD

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • T
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #520 on: September 10, 2018, 12:49:03 PM »
Is not Electronic a misnomer both for ELINT and EM sensors? Active sensors are FTL, and so seems to be interstellar communication.
I doubt much electronic information can be gathered from a single planet, as any advanced civilization will likely put as much as possible of their internal communications into optical fibers, or short range radios that are highly focused on satellites for uplink, and pointed at the planet from satellites to ground.
This only really leaves communications between systems to be intercepted, but at these ranges, you likely aim at the entire system, and not anything in particular in it. Also, since every unit has comm gear that can pick up interstellar communication, it does not seem like you need special antennas for picking up that kind of transmission.
That's one technobabble interpretation, but there are many others. If TN comms tech has the advantage of FTL communication speeds then advanced civilizations might ditch fibre optic entirely and move everything into TN space for the speed advantage, opening themselves up to interception. Heck, maybe the entire internet goes TN wireless, and ELINT systems are mostly listening to facebook messages, and trying to deduce useful intelligence from that.
 

Offline DEEPenergy

  • Warrant Officer, Class 2
  • ****
  • Posts: 55
  • Thanked: 35 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #521 on: September 10, 2018, 09:36:56 PM »
I'd like to suggest some way of one sided language translation, by ELINT or otherwise.  Monitoring alien communications with stealthed ships to translate their language to enhance interrogations sounds very fun.
 

Offline TCD

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • T
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #522 on: September 11, 2018, 08:45:31 AM »
I'd like to suggest some way of one sided language translation, by ELINT or otherwise.  Monitoring alien communications with stealthed ships to translate their language to enhance interrogations sounds very fun.
My problem is always how do you get the stealthed ships into the system? I don't think I've read anything to suggest that stealthed ships will be any better at getting past a jump picket in C#.

Maybe that could be tied into having a certain level of intelligence points? "Your advanced knowledge of Ebu sensor techniques improves stealth efficiency by a further X%."

 

Offline JacenHan

  • Captain
  • **********
  • Posts: 454
  • Thanked: 115 times
  • Discord Username: Jacenhan
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #523 on: September 11, 2018, 11:45:37 AM »
Even improved stealth efficiency can't get past a picket. I think it would be interesting to be able to design special jump engines that have a huge jump radius (maybe starting at around 10m km and getting higher with tech?) that can only jump one ship (no assisted transits or squadron jumps). Other downsides could be increased size, as is done with commercial drives, and a smaller maximum size. This would allow a stealth ship to jump in outside point-blank sensor range, or allow a fast, PD-equipped ship to escape more quickly. Obviously, these would be trapped in enemy territory, but that is a danger with any stealth ship design.
 
The following users thanked this post: El Pip, DIT_grue, King-Salomon

Offline Person012345

  • Captain
  • **********
  • Posts: 539
  • Thanked: 29 times
Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #524 on: September 12, 2018, 12:25:53 AM »
Is not Electronic a misnomer both for ELINT and EM sensors? Active sensors are FTL, and so seems to be interstellar communication.
I doubt much electronic information can be gathered from a single planet, as any advanced civilization will likely put as much as possible of their internal communications into optical fibers, or short range radios that are highly focused on satellites for uplink, and pointed at the planet from satellites to ground.
This only really leaves communications between systems to be intercepted, but at these ranges, you likely aim at the entire system, and not anything in particular in it. Also, since every unit has comm gear that can pick up interstellar communication, it does not seem like you need special antennas for picking up that kind of transmission.
EM sensors pick up electromagnetic radiation produced by electrial systems. ELINT might be a misnomer (though ELINT doesn't so much refer to picking up communication signals, in this case it could be the analysis of electro-magnetic signatures to figure things out) dpending on your particular scenario, but who cares, it's not exactly uncommon to keep using a term for the same practice even if the term gets technically outdated. And this is heavily dependent ont he scenario you are RPing.