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Posted by: jseah
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:39:06 AM »

Database backed up.. risky experiments time.  
I've tried to build a circle of tractor beams. Unfortunately, ResolutionMnt 004 cannot tractor Agincourt 002. For that matter, the other tractor beamed ships don't even show up in the dropdown list of tractor targets (but my shipyards do)

I removed Agincourt 003 and 004 and 005 from the task group, breaking their links.
Weird behaviour ensued.   Task group speed is now 0 (??? I've never seen a 0 speed anything)
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/AuroraTractortest3taskgroup-1.jpg

F6 window: Selecting Agincourt 002, I cannot find ResolutionTnk 004 in the tractor beam target list.  I can find ResolutionMnt 004 though... ???  But Resolution Mnt 004 has 003 tractoring it.  

I think I can figure out the rule(s) here.  
1. A ship can only have 1 tractor beam target.  
2. A ship that is tractor beaming something cannot be the target of a tractor beam.  
3. A ship can be tractorbeamed first, and THEN tractorbeam other things.

Aw, no tractorbeam loops.  XD

Also, can we please not take that out?  ^^  I want to make a modular fleet now.  
Why not just consider total engine power of all tractor linked ships and their total mass then get the speed from there?

EDIT: lolz, I could quite easily make capital ships go zoom as fast as fighters go... zoom...
Hey... Can fighters mount a tractor beam?  *evil grin*

FACs certainly can.  I now have a two stage tractorbeam FAC that can make any number of tankers go at 10 kkm/s  =P
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:19:48 AM »

Interesting.

Did the speed drop after you chained more than one module?
It didn't, see my tanker test. 

The tug boat test isn't conclusive since all the tugboats in the chain are identical so you wouldn't expect the speed to drop. 
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:16:35 AM »

Relink:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/AuroraTractortesttaskgroup.jpg

SM mode testing to create a fleet of tankers with tractor beams. It works.
Pics here:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/AuroraTractortest2taskgroup.jpg

I have discovered that you can drag to set the length of columns.  Interesting.  Each ship is apparently linked to two others.  
Moving the fleet... works.  I've moved them from my homeworld to my naval shipyards.  

Interesting to see that the effect Elouda mentioned is around.  The speed of that fleet is 9191, which is the standard max speed of my tug boats.  

Fuel test... Only my tug boats consume fuel.  Which is a massive fuel hog of course.  

EDIT: The ResolutionTnk class is a tanker class, fuel... and nothing else.  The ResolutionMnt class is a maintenance base, 2x maintenance module and nothing else. 
Posted by: Elouda
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:15:29 AM »

I just installed last week.   v5. 20  I think it's 5. 20 at least.   
For reference, ship design looks like this.   
Let me confirm that tractor beam chain again. . .  . . .

Confirmed.   I've chained my tug boats together in orbit.   
Pic here:
hxxp: i253. photobucket. com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/AuroraTractortesttaskgroup. jpg

The Agincourt class is a tugboat that is nothing but engines and a tractor beam.   From the F6 screen, I selected Agincourt 002, tractor linked it to Agincourt 003.   Selected Agincourt 003, tractor linked it to Agincourt 004 and so on.   

Then I open the F12 taskgroups screen and refresh the TG they were in by selecting it in the dropdown box again and I get this.   

SM mode testing coming up.   

Interesting.

Did the speed drop after you chained more than one module?
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 13, 2010, 10:06:40 AM »

I just installed last week.   v5. 20  I think it's 5. 20 at least.   
For reference, ship design looks like this.   
Quote
King George class Cruiser    19,900 tons     2107 Crew     5194. 6 BP      TCS 398  TH 1275  EM 1800
6407 km/s     Armour 4-65     Shields 60-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 32     PPV 195
Annual Failure Rate: 143%    IFR: 2%    Maint Capacity 3589 MSP    Max Repair 377 MSP    Est Time: 3. 15 Years

Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E8. 4 (17)    Power 150    Fuel Use 84%    Signature 75    Armour 0    Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 26. 9 billion km   (48 days at full power)
Delta R300/15 Shields (24)   Total Fuel Cost  360 Litres per day

Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (5x4)    Range 256,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 40-20     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Fire Control S08 128-8000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (20)     Total Power Output 100    Armour 0    Exp 5%

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Let me confirm that tractor beam chain again. . .  . . .

Confirmed.   I've chained my tug boats together in orbit.   
Pic here:
hxxp: i253. photobucket. com/albums/hh47/jon_seah/AuroraTractortesttaskgroup. jpg

The Agincourt class is a tugboat that is nothing but engines and a tractor beam.   From the F6 screen, I selected Agincourt 002, tractor linked it to Agincourt 003.   Selected Agincourt 003, tractor linked it to Agincourt 004 and so on.   

Then I open the F12 taskgroups screen and refresh the TG they were in by selecting it in the dropdown box again and I get this.   

SM mode testing coming up.   
Posted by: Elouda
« on: December 13, 2010, 09:08:16 AM »

John beat me to it;

I tried this a year ago, the results are in this thread - http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,2459.0.html

Essentially, groups of the tractored ships with more than one component ignored the added weight after the second (and thus did not loose speed), and as a result Steve changed the code to prevent this.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: December 13, 2010, 08:31:21 AM »

I have discovered that tractor beams can chain. . .
A, B and C all have tractor beams.   

A1 tractors B1, B1 tractors B2, B2 tractors B3 <. . . >, B* tractors C, C tractors nothing

Which version are you playing with?  My recollection is that someone stumbled over this a year or so ago, and Steve removed it as an exploit - probably in late 4.x.  IIRC, the intent is that only 2 ships are allowed in a tractor chain, i.e. A tractors B, B tracktors nothing.

John
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 13, 2010, 06:25:23 AM »

I have discovered that tractor beams can chain. . .
A, B and C all have tractor beams.   

A1 tractors B1, B1 tractors B2, B2 tractors B3 <. . . >, B* tractors C, C tractors nothing

So.   Given this, is a modular fleet possible?  XD
How about a battlefleet with no section > 20ktons, but all of which have tractor beams and are purpose built?
Chain your engine section to your jumpdrive section to your point defense section to your missile platform to your laser weapons to your. . .  XD

My feasibility analysis:

Disadvantages:
Enemy targeting gets to hit a section they like.  Essentially they get to focus on one part of your armour at a time, unlike in one big ship.   
Warp point assaults are hell.   You can only send as many sections together as your jump drive is rated for.   
You lose some engine efficiency.   Number of modules = number of 500tons wasted on tractor beam mass.   

Advantages:
Maintenance is easier.   Number of maintenance facilities you need drops drastically.   
Shipbuilding can occur on smaller shipyards using slipways in parallel.  A 5 slipway 20kton yard can churn out an effective 100kton ship.   
Shipbuilding requires less shipyards.   You can retool each module invidually as tech increases, without retooling the whole shipyard for a new ship class.   
Your jumpdrive module is commercial. . .  And can remain small.   
Option of using commercial engines for military ships. .  and having them remain commercial.   
 - And if you do this, you can use a commercial jumpdrive (!!)
When your engines blow up from a hit, damage is contained to the engine module.   If you have more than one engine module, the ship just slows down. . .

Anything I missed?
Is it worth it to try?
Posted by: ardem
« on: December 12, 2010, 10:23:40 PM »

Anti missile i learnt the had way.

You need an Active Sensor that is R1 to see the missiles incoming as well as an R1 fire control.

I thought I only needed one but it would not fire cause I could not see the missiles.

but you can have that R1 Active Sensor on one ship and they all will work, but lose that ship you lose missile defense.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: December 12, 2010, 09:19:33 PM »

Two comments on missile warfare:

1)  The Achilles' heel of missiles is the industrial base needed to sustain missile stocks during a sustained war.  In other words, developing a missile-armed fleet might seem a no-brainer from a tactical point of view, but once you factor logistics in it becomes much less obvious.

2)  Given the above, there are players who swear by a "beam-armed tank" strategy, where opposing missile-armed fleets shoot themselves dry against your armor.  Of course this strategy might not work so well against a meson-armed foe :-)

John
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 12, 2010, 08:26:41 PM »

Thanks for the missile advice.   I. . .  think I'll reconsider though given how much more research I'd have to do.   I'll just pick my battles and only fight when outnumbering the enemy.   
Was useful in designing anti-missiles though.   

I've been plotting out the sensor strength to detection radius on Autograph, using the values given by the Active Sensor design page to reverse engineer the range equation.   

Detection Range = Sensor Range at rated size / ( (Target object size / rated size)^2 )
 - I assume I cannot detect things beyond the sensor range at rated size, as that would mean smaller res sensors win vs bigger sensors all the time.   

It strikes me that I have a massive gap in my detection ranges due to my arrangements of active sensors.   
~280 - 100 hull sizes are only detected at 192m km
~70 - 20 hull sizes are only detected at 85. 9m km

And the nature of the equation means that no matter what I do, there is always a gap unless I add a ridiculous amount of sensors.   =( 
Posted by: ardem
« on: December 12, 2010, 07:40:22 PM »

I have made a MIRV which is Size 10, which is the same as my ship killers which are single size 10, the mirv spit out 8x Size 1 missiles, closer to the target. The reason i have Size one and not smaller is I want the warhead to do atleast 1 point of damage, the few that get though instead of just colouring the hull, wear the armour down.

I use no agility and minimal power of the main tube, but a good deal of fuel, you mix these in with my ship killers size 10 missiles, the multiple size one overwhelm the missile and point systems and dependent on luck your Size 10 might slip through and blast a nice whole in the vessel.

one things to please note when engaged in missile war, they take a long time to play out, I had 3-3 hour session on one battle.


Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: December 12, 2010, 07:02:36 PM »

Missiles only deal damage with a Warhead. Agility only increases hitrate, speed is keeping you alive.
For a decoy missile, a good idea might be a Mirv.
That way, you can have a size 2 missile spit out a size 1.5 missile that releases a size 1 missile, giving you three missiles of different speeds for just 2 MSP.
For your missile warheads, keep it squares. 1, 4, 9, 16... works better versus Armor.
If you ever hit Invaders (An advanced race), Lasers might actually be a good choice for Point defense.

The AI can counter Missiles pretty decently, like a human player; Theres really not much to it.
Decoys might work, but the best choice in my book is to swarm them.
Get reduced size launchers, say, 50%, and get big alphastrikes in to swamp their Firecontrols in contacs they can't possibly all beat, and rip them up with numbers. Keep in mind some enemies might have higher tech levels though, an enemy dishing out 3 missiles a second is not an uncommon sight.

Also, you can use beam weapons, if you got really good point defense, just wait until they expend their missiles, then hunt them down.
Cloaking technology is also a valid possibility.
Posted by: jseah
« on: December 12, 2010, 05:44:49 PM »

Thanks again for the more replies.   XD

sloanjh: nice explanation.   If he's basing the design off naval warfare, I should do the same too.   

That means less beam ships and more point defense escorting a carrier with missile-armed fighters/gunships.   Too bad I already wasted ~20k RP on lasers.   

Gauss Cannon, Meson Cannon + Anti-missile for missile defense.   Speed to stay out of range (magnetic confinement drives + 20% power boost) and just missile everything to death.   
I think I can handle the higher cost of missile based offense.   Spent a long few years micromanaging my colonies and I have roughly double the wealth I started with.   Just need to ship some ordnance factories around.   

Question about missile warfare.   How good is the AI at countering missiles?  Is decoy missiles worth an investment?  (1MSP missiles with engines and fuel only.   Shot to the back of the enemy fleet to maximise flight time)
What's the formulae for hitting missiles?  Does agility increase their dodge rate or is it just speed?
Also, do missiles with no warheads deal damage?
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: December 12, 2010, 03:16:06 PM »

Most people will limit which systems they reasearch to a plan.  Some weapon for short range point defense, a long range beam weapon, and missile tech.  There are a couple of ways you can go with the missile tech.  One is to pour your reasearch into the missiles and make them the primary shipkiller weapon.  The problem with this is that they are expensive.  While a great system for encounters with precursors, star swarms and small npr's you will quickly find out that keeping your fleets in ammunition is almost prohibitavly expensive.  The second way is to use missiles as a counter missile to thin out the incomming missile attacks so your other point defense can handle it.  For this you mostly need a moderate tech for the warhead, good agility and missile engine tech along with a reload speed of 3.  This will give you a 10 second cycle time for size 1 missiles which should be enough to thin out missile attacks.  For point defense the best weapon is the gauss cannon, while both mesons and lasers make a good multipurpose system.  Mesons are also a devestating short range weapon as they ignore armour and shields.  You will want at least some meson tech as they are the only beam weapon that can be sued through an atmosphere without being affected.  Lasers are good at all ranges depending on caliber, while particle beams are excellent for smaller ships to get good range and damage.  Railguns are devestating in close due to their high rate of fire, and early on make a decent point defense system as well.  The microwave system is harder to use but has the potential to knock out a ships fire control very quickly,  The main drawback is it does need to get through the shields before having any effect.

Hope this helps
Brian