How does it end?

[TrueZuluwiz (OP)]

What is the end of Aurora? At what point does the game become unplayable? Let's assume a player has no opposition whatsoever. In that case the race involved will expand forever, yes? But what happens in the interior of their imperium? The various minerals are mined out and are unobtainable in nearby systems. This means that the player will have to mine systems farther and farther away from the interior and send the minerals back. If he does not do this then the interior must either 1) revert to pre-trans-newtonian conditions 2) evacuate to the frontier 3) build a transmuter to produce the elements needed. Number 1 is what we started playing the game to avoid, right? Number 2 is likely to be impossible, as the interior systems are going to be the most heavily populated and it would take eons to evacuate them, and not nearly enough places to which to evacuate. Number 3 would likely cause the end of expansion, as the search for new mineral sources would be unnecessary.

So what happens to systems that use up their mineral resources and are too far from the frontier to bring the needed amounts back? Assuming they don't evacuate, can they survive without transmutation? Or do the survivors become subsistence farmers? This is likely to occur at pretty much the same time in most areas in the interior of a large imperium, so it will not be a localized problem. Yes, the frontier systems will try to send minerals back to the center, but the amounts will never equal the needs. At what point do they stop trying?

Note that this is an imperium without opponents. Any opponents, and the warfare which is likely to ensue will simply accelerat the process. Warships will be built and destroyed instead of the needed cargo ships. If the players cooperate instead of warring on each other, then the first condition recurs, in which you would have 2 imperiums expanding to their limits instead of one.

All this means that in the case of a large imperium, the need for a transmuter would be very great. Were I playing the game, that would be one of the first things I would attempt to research and build. No doubt the costs would be hgh, but the rewards would be much higher.

Comments?

[Kurt]

What is the end of Aurora? At what point does the game become unplayable? Let's assume a player has no opposition whatsoever. In that case the race involved will expand forever, yes? But what happens in the interior of their imperium? The various minerals are mined out and are unobtainable in nearby systems. This means that the player will have to mine systems farther and farther away from the interior and send the minerals back. If he does not do this then the interior must either 1) revert to pre-trans-newtonian conditions 2) evacuate to the frontier 3) build a transmuter to produce the elements needed. Number 1 is what we started playing the game to avoid, right? Number 2 is likely to be impossible, as the interior systems are going to be the most heavily populated and it would take eons to evacuate them, and not nearly enough places to which to evacuate. Number 3 would likely cause the end of expansion, as the search for new mineral sources would be unnecessary.

So what happens to systems that use up their mineral resources and are too far from the frontier to bring the needed amounts back? Assuming they don't evacuate, can they survive without transmutation? Or do the survivors become subsistence farmers? This is likely to occur at pretty much the same time in most areas in the interior of a large imperium, so it will not be a localized problem. Yes, the frontier systems will try to send minerals back to the center, but the amounts will never equal the needs. At what point do they stop trying?

Note that this is an imperium without opponents. Any opponents, and the warfare which is likely to ensue will simply accelerat the process. Warships will be built and destroyed instead of the needed cargo ships. If the players cooperate instead of warring on each other, then the first condition recurs, in which you would have 2 imperiums expanding to their limits instead of one.

All this means that in the case of a large imperium, the need for a transmuter would be very great. Were I playing the game, that would be one of the first things I would attempt to research and build. No doubt the costs would be hgh, but the rewards would be much higher.

Comments?

This idea has been bothering me as well, but I have relegated it to the back of my conciousness since I was fairly certain I'd never play a campaign long enough to get to this point.  However, after reading the above and pondering it for a little while, all I can say is that while this concept is depressing, it mimics real life.  Our society runs on raw materials, many of which are non-renewable on anything less than geologic time frames.  Oil, coal, iron, nickel, magnesium, uranium, titanium and a hundred other mundane and exotic resources go in one end of our civilization and are consumed.  Many are "consumed".  

Expanding out into our solar system will help with some of these resources.  Iron and many other metals are likely available in vast quantities in the asteroid belt.  But if history has shown anything, it is that as our technology goes up and our access to resources increases, so does our consumption.  How long until we strip first the Earth, then the solar system, and then the surrounding solar systems?  

Developing ultra-efficient recycling systems and the mythical transmuter would seem to be the only long-term survivable goals.  

Kurt

[Erik L]

Geo teams will alleviate that to some extent. Also, in a single imperium scenario, the time it takes to fully strip mine a system like Sol is pretty hefty.

Maybe, as an option, Steve could add a multiplier to minerals. By default this is set to 1 (which is the current state). This would be a global multiplier. Sort of like difficulty levels in other games.

[MWadwell]

What is the end of Aurora? At what point does the game become unplayable? Let's assume a player has no opposition whatsoever. In that case the race involved will expand forever, yes? But what happens in the interior of their imperium? The various minerals are mined out and are unobtainable in nearby systems. This means that the player will have to mine systems farther and farther away from the interior and send the minerals back. If he does not do this then the interior must either 1) revert to pre-trans-newtonian conditions 2) evacuate to the frontier 3) build a transmuter to produce the elements needed. Number 1 is what we started playing the game to avoid, right? Number 2 is likely to be impossible, as the interior systems are going to be the most heavily populated and it would take eons to evacuate them, and not nearly enough places to which to evacuate. Number 3 would likely cause the end of expansion, as the search for new mineral sources would be unnecessary.

So what happens to systems that use up their mineral resources and are too far from the frontier to bring the needed amounts back? Assuming they don't evacuate, can they survive without transmutation? Or do the survivors become subsistence farmers? This is likely to occur at pretty much the same time in most areas in the interior of a large imperium, so it will not be a localized problem. Yes, the frontier systems will try to send minerals back to the center, but the amounts will never equal the needs. At what point do they stop trying?

Note that this is an imperium without opponents. Any opponents, and the warfare which is likely to ensue will simply accelerat the process. Warships will be built and destroyed instead of the needed cargo ships. If the players cooperate instead of warring on each other, then the first condition recurs, in which you would have 2 imperiums expanding to their limits instead of one.

All this means that in the case of a large imperium, the need for a transmuter would be very great. Were I playing the game, that would be one of the first things I would attempt to research and build. No doubt the costs would be hgh, but the rewards would be much higher.

Comments?

The same thing would happen in another old game I used to play - "Spaceward Ho!", where the established planets would generate wealth (but no minerals), and the fringe planets would generate minerals (but with a negative income). In this game, running out of minerals was a real scenario, as the universe was limited and the other (AI) players could block you in.....

As to what to do in Aurora, I'm not sure if it's a big a problem as you believe - as the core planets would regress to a level where they wouldn't consume maintenance (i.e.they would have ground based systems such as research labs, naval academies, etc.) but would still be generating wealth.

You are correct that without access to raw materials they wouldn't be able to construct anything (and so no shipyards/ground unit construction/CF/OF/etc.), but they would still be able to contribute to the empire (with RL/wealth/officers being generated) - and so wouldn't need to be abandoned....

[Randy]

As to what to do in Aurora, I'm not sure if it's a big a problem as you believe - as the core planets would regress to a level where they wouldn't consume maintenance (i.e.they would have ground based systems such as research labs, naval academies, etc.) but would still be generating wealth.

The only problem with this is that if you don't provide maintenance, what is providing the security your populations will demand?

[SteveAlt]

What is the end of Aurora? At what point does the game become unplayable? Let's assume a player has no opposition whatsoever. In that case the race involved will expand forever, yes? But what happens in the interior of their imperium? The various minerals are mined out and are unobtainable in nearby systems. This means that the player will have to mine systems farther and farther away from the interior and send the minerals back. If he does not do this then the interior must either 1) revert to pre-trans-newtonian conditions 2) evacuate to the frontier 3) build a transmuter to produce the elements needed. Number 1 is what we started playing the game to avoid, right? Number 2 is likely to be impossible, as the interior systems are going to be the most heavily populated and it would take eons to evacuate them, and not nearly enough places to which to evacuate. Number 3 would likely cause the end of expansion, as the search for new mineral sources would be unnecessary.

So what happens to systems that use up their mineral resources and are too far from the frontier to bring the needed amounts back? Assuming they don't evacuate, can they survive without transmutation? Or do the survivors become subsistence farmers? This is likely to occur at pretty much the same time in most areas in the interior of a large imperium, so it will not be a localized problem. Yes, the frontier systems will try to send minerals back to the center, but the amounts will never equal the needs. At what point do they stop trying?

Note that this is an imperium without opponents. Any opponents, and the warfare which is likely to ensue will simply accelerat the process. Warships will be built and destroyed instead of the needed cargo ships. If the players cooperate instead of warring on each other, then the first condition recurs, in which you would have 2 imperiums expanding to their limits instead of one.

All this means that in the case of a large imperium, the need for a transmuter would be very great. Were I playing the game, that would be one of the first things I would attempt to research and build. No doubt the costs would be hgh, but the rewards would be much higher.

Aurora doesn't have set victory conditions in the same way as wargame with a much-shorter playing time. Its more like an open-ended RPG situation. In a multi-player campaign you could perhaps "win" by eliminating your human opponents but in a solo game you will keep running into alien empires. They will get more powerful as the game progresses but still be limited to one system so I am thinking of ways to generate random multi-system Empires.

Its actually very difficult to completely run out of minerals even in long-inhabited areas. While homeworlds tend to have tens of thousands (and sometime hundreds of thousands) of tons of reasonably accessible minerals, many terrestrial planets have tens of millions of tons at lower accessibilities. Its more likely the supply of minerals would be reduced by low accessibility than run out completely. Even then, planets can be a source of wealth, trade and research even without minerals so while the manufacturing base might be moved further out or various freight routes established, the core worlds will probably become the primary research and wealth generating worlds.

Steve

[SteveAlt]

As to what to do in Aurora, I'm not sure if it's a big a problem as you believe - as the core planets would regress to a level where they wouldn't consume maintenance (i.e.they would have ground based systems such as research labs, naval academies, etc.) but would still be generating wealth.

The only problem with this is that if you don't provide maintenance, what is providing the security your populations will demand?

PDCs don't consume maintenance

Steve

[kdstubbs]

Steve,
       Interesting concept, which points to the need for two technologies:  recylcing tech--to allow for salvage of trans-newtonian minerals, I assume 1000 tons of duranium cant be destroyed only converted into useful items.  I assume you can recover and resmelt the duranium to convert it to another component.  Only elements that are consumed like fuel would be converted into a non-useful form--entropy wins of course.  The other technology would be improved extraction efficiency--I think you already have that loaded into the game.  If you developed better mining technology then eventually even low accessable deposits could be extracted completely.  So 100,000 tons of duranium at 0.1 accessibility should still produce 100,000 tons of duranium over time with better extraction technologies.  Costs would go up etc., but you should still be able to extract the element over time.  That's all assuming I haven't missed something obvious in how you've designed the game.  



Kevin

[Erik L]

Steve,
       Interesting concept, which points to the need for two technologies:  recylcing tech--to allow for salvage of trans-newtonian minerals, I assume 1000 tons of duranium cant be destroyed only converted into useful items.  I assume you can recover and resmelt the duranium to convert it to another component.  Only elements that are consumed like fuel would be converted into a non-useful form--entropy wins of course.  The other technology would be improved extraction efficiency--I think you already have that loaded into the game.  If you developed better mining technology then eventually even low accessable deposits could be extracted completely.  So 100,000 tons of duranium at 0.1 accessibility should still produce 100,000 tons of duranium over time with better extraction technologies.  Costs would go up etc., but you should still be able to extract the element over time.  That's all assuming I haven't missed something obvious in how you've designed the game.  



Kevin

To some extent, items can be recycled. If I recall, scrapped ships provide a stock of minerals. Wrecks provide minerals. I do not believe you can recycle facilities though.

[Steve Walmsley]

To some extent, items can be recycled. If I recall, scrapped ships provide a stock of minerals. Wrecks provide minerals. I do not believe you can recycle facilities though.

Missiles can also be scrapped for minerals and fuel. At the moment there is no way to scrap facilities, although I may add that in the future. Scrapping intact alien ships or salvaging their wrecks can also lead to new tech being discovered.

Steve

[simon]

Now that independent NPR are almost upon us it would be interesting to simulate core periphery tension as politico-industrial centripetal force is exceeded by frontier centrifugal. You can almost imagine fragmentation as your frontier governors inform you they will no longer be taking orders from you ). Then the game can be measured in terms of the rise and fall of empires with newer younger empires coalescing and expanding scavenger empires conquering and destroying weakened depleted cores.
P.s Imagine all the civil wars, proxy wars you can roll in