Author Topic: Tribal-class CVL Example Game starting 12kt Mixed Armaments Carrier  (Read 1305 times)

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Offline Warer (OP)

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Here`s is the TDV Tribal-class a TN start Ion-engined reduced missile and half-sized railgun armed carrier note I know these designs are suboptimal to say the least just feel the need to say it but please do explain my stupidity in detail anyway its why I'm doing this

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Tribal class Light Carrier      12,000 tons       235 Crew       1,268.7 BP       TCS 240    TH 810    EM 0
3375 km/s      Armour 2-46       Shields 0-0       HTK 50      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 2      PPV 32.4
Maint Life 2.19 Years     MSP 1,582    AFR 576%    IFR 8.0%    1YR 442    5YR 6,625    Max Repair 121.5 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 4,000 tons     Magazine 96   
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 1.5 months    Flight Crew Berths 80    Morale Check Required   

1,200ton 67.5mN Ion Drive (3)    Power 810    Fuel Use 49.60%    Signature 270    Explosion 9%
Fuel Capacity 451,000 Litres    Range 13.6 billion km (46 days at full power)

QF 5cm/30caliber Dual Railgun Mount (8x2)    Range 30,000km     TS: 3,375 km/s     Power 1.5-1.5     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
150ton 128kkm/3kkps M-BFC (2)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 3,000 km/s     69 63 57 52 46 40 34 28 22 16
90ton 12.07mW GCFR Core (1)     Total Power Output 12.1    Exp 5%

12cm Counter Missile Slow-Cycle Launch Tube (32)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 50
5ton R1/1 G-MFC (4)     Range 2.5m km    Resolution 1
Mk1 Runa 12cm 1kt 1.2mkm .1c Counter Missile (144)    Speed: 30,000 km/s    End: 0.7m     Range: 1.2m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 160/96/48

5ton R1/1 GSA (1)     GPS 1     Range 1.3m km    MCR 113.5k km    Resolution 1
25ton R5/1 GSA (1)     GPS 5     Range 2.8m km    MCR 253.9k km    Resolution 1

Strike Group
20x AC-1 Parrot Attack Craft   Speed: 6028 km/s    Size: 3.98

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a b for auto-assignment purposes

...and here's its micro-railgun fighter armed with a single-shot 100mm railgun

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AC-1 Parrot class Attack Craft      200 tons       9 Crew       27.5 BP       TCS 4    TH 24    EM 0
6028 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.98
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 39%    IFR 0.6%    1YR 2    5YR 27    Max Repair 12 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 0.3 days    Morale Check Required   

60ton 6mN Ion Drive (1)    Power 24    Fuel Use 934.78%    Signature 24    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 3,000 Litres    Range 0.29 billion km (13 hours at full power)

QF 2.5cm/30caliber Single Railgun Mount MkI (1)    Range 30,000km     TS: 6,028 km/s     Power 0-1     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
38ton 32kkm/6kkps S-BFC (1)     Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     69 38 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
18ton 1.04mW GCFR Core (1)     Total Power Output 1    Exp 5%

5ton R1/1 GSA (1)     GPS 1     Range 1.3m km    MCR 113.5k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a e for auto-assignment purposes

...and not carried as of yet counter-missile armed sibling

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AC-2 Wristbow class Attack Craft      200 tons       2 Crew       26.6 BP       TCS 4    TH 24    EM 0
6003 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 1.8
Maint Life 2.47 Years     MSP 5    AFR 40%    IFR 0.6%    1YR 1    5YR 17    Max Repair 12 MSP
Magazine 12   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

60ton 6mN Ion Drive (1)    Power 24    Fuel Use 934.78%    Signature 24    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 7,000 Litres    Range 0.67 billion km (31 hours at full power)

12cm Counter Missile Cell (12)     Missile Size: 1    Hangar Reload 50 minutes    MF Reload 8 hours
5ton R1/1 G-MFC (2)     Range 2.5m km    Resolution 1
Mk1 Runa 12cm 1kt 1.2mkm .1c Counter Missile (12)    Speed: 30,000 km/s    End: 0.7m     Range: 1.2m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 160/96/48

5ton R1/1 GSA (1)     GPS 1     Range 1.3m km    MCR 113.5k km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a e for auto-assignment purposes
 

Offline YABG

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I like these kind of designs - BSG/interwar carrier-esque are characterful.

My only comment would be the fighters are kinda slow for Ion tech. I feel that 250 tons might be better for a single shot railgun fighter since you can get those up to 12,000 km/s (2HS/240% engines at ion tech) while sub-250 ton fighters might still be better armed with a 0.75HS Gauss cannon.

That being said you might not have all the techs around 10,000 RP to take advantage of the extra speed.
 
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Offline Warer (OP)

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I like these kind of designs - BSG/interwar carrier-esque are characterful.

My only comment would be the fighters are kinda slow for Ion tech. I feel that 250 tons might be better for a single shot railgun fighter since you can get those up to 12,000 km/s (2HS/240% engines at ion tech) while sub-250 ton fighters might still be better armed with a 0.75HS Gauss cannon.

That being said you might not have all the techs around 10,000 RP to take advantage of the extra speed.
To be honest, I was just making something I thought was cool but if I had to IC justify it I`d go with the classic "Experimental Designed by Committee ship", less a serious long term combatant and more an armed testbed for the various ideas for how to wage a war in the Trans-Newtonian Interstellar era with no real experience (though this is true I have no real experience in this game other than messing around) in the matter. Thus why its a carrier with missile launchers, railguns the speed, range, and armor on the other hand are more concessions to the 12kt mass limit (I considered making it a 13.5kt ship to give it 3kkps speed but decided that to work within limitations was in the spirit of things) the engines especially being same the ones going into the 9kt Geologist/Astronomer-class Armed Survey Cruisers just added another one.

-Post on fighters coming
 

Offline Warer (OP)

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On the AC-1 Parrot, i was once again just messing around seeing how small a craft I could fit a railgun onto, I deeply prefer so-called micro-fighters in fact. This was an extreme rush job sort of like something a desperate government would rush out in a hurry just to say here there's your defense I imagine. As for speed that's more a limitation of BFC track speed which is at present 2kkps. In fact I spread the 160k RP rather poorly I think, here's the present techs i have.

And here's the AC-3 quarter kiloton fighter
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AC-3 Sparrow class Attack Craft      250 tons       11 Crew       38.9 BP       TCS 5    TH 40    EM 0
8010 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 2      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.98
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 49%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 3    5YR 51    Max Repair 20 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 days    Morale Check Required   

80ton 10mN Ion Drive (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 1414.21%    Signature 40    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 15,000 Litres    Range 0.76 billion km (26 hours at full power)

QF 2.5cm/30caliber Single Railgun Mount MkI (1)    Range 30,000km     TS: 8,010 km/s     Power 0-1     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
50ton 32kkm/8kkps S-BFC (1)     Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     69 38 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
18ton 1.04mW GCFR Core (1)     Total Power Output 1    Exp 5%

5ton R1/1 GSA (1)     GPS 1     Range 1.3m km    MCR 113.5k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a e for auto-assignment purposes

I feel I must contest that a coilgun (gauss cannon) as its presently found in the game might only beat out 1 shot railguns in the late game in fact I think from maybe RoF6.
 

Offline DeMatt

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My two cents' worth:

Tribal
  • 1.5 months of crew is very short.  Is it intended to park on a colony?
  • 13.6 Bkm of fuel is not terribly long, particularly when the fighters start eating into it.
  • AFR seems high, could probably do with more engineering spaces.
  • Magazine seems small for just its own launchers - one in the tube, plus two reloads?
  • Magazine is painfully small if you start carrying Wristbows.  Especially if you develop a "strike" size-1 missile for them to carry.
  • Don't need both the 5-ton and 25-ton GSAs, since they're both resolution 1.  Maybe the bigger one should be a "search" sensor, with a resolution to detect ships?
  • Your antimissile sensor wants to have its MCR be close to your AMM's range - MCR is where it will detect size-6 (and smaller) missiles, which is to say "pretty much all of them".
  • Hangar deck seems large for the ship tonnage and multipurpose nature - would 3k hangar tons be okay?

Fighters
  • Parrot could do with some engineering space and enough MSP to repair the inevitable failure of its railgun.
  • Parrot's BFC could do with being longer-ranged.  Not that there's enough spare tonnage to expand it...
  • GSA's on the Parrot and Wristbow are wasteful.  Build a separate sensor fighter, then you can have a much better sensor array while the combat craft focus on weaponry.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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In general, the major problem with the designs is that to be frank I don't see the point. What I mean is: you've got railgun fighters and railguns on the carrier, and you've got AMM fighters and AMMs on the carrier. While there is something to be said for redundancy, this is I think at too much of a cost to effectiveness. Carriers in Aurora in general just do not work well as "mutli-role" ships because it takes a lot of dedicated tonnage to maintain an effective fighter wing - this is a frustration when trying to model the large fleet carriers in many sci-fi universes, but is basically imposed by the heavier fighter classes Aurora forces on us, where most sci-fi fighters are probably 1% to 10% the size.

To make an effective carrier fleet, we must start with an effective fighter design and build around it. Usually this means a box-ASM bomber as these are the strongest use of carriers. In this case however it seems that PD fighters are the fighter we are basing the design around - presumably this means some other kind of ship will provide offensive throw e.g. a CG or DDG squadron. Therefore, we should commit to the PD fighters and mount minimal PD weapons on the carrier itself, if any.

Carrier: Remove the railguns as they are redundant with the fighters, and use the space for additional magazines. Additionally I would suggest aiming for a higher speed, ideally you would like a fleet speed of 4000 km/s minimum for missile-based fleets, however even using 100% EP modifier for the engines will get you up to 3750 km/s which is more competitive with likely enemy fleet speeds. The AMM launchers should be fewer and rapid firing with deeper magazines. If you keep the AMM fighters, a few (~6ish) launchers will be necessary to provide rapid fire when the AMM fighters need to reload. If you scrap the AMM fighters, which I would recommend as the carrier is a better AMM platform, then you want the rapid fire to be able to counter one large salvo or several smaller ones at more frequent intervals (even NPRs can launch ASMs every 15-20 seconds). Finally, you want a much larger RES-1 active sensor on the carrier, especially if you have invested in the missile tracking techs. Size 6 (300 tons) is the minimum I would suggest. Finally make sure you have enough fuel for your fighters plus deployment time, carriers in particular can expect to stay stationary away from a base running up the deployment clock but not consuming fuel so you want more deployment time. MSP is okay though.

Railgun fighter: While I get the appeal of using the new update features, 200 tons for a single-shot railgun is poor economy, you can easily put a full 4-shot railgun on a 400 or 500 ton frame instead and get more shots per ton. Also, while the smaller BFC seems better in reality you will get more efficiency from a larger BFC in terms of both range (accuracy) and speed (coupled with better engines). The major concept of railgun fighters is to have as much speed as possible to give similar performance to Gauss turrets of a similar tech level. To this end, and especially because you are also using missiles, I would recommend teching to a higher maximum EP modifier - at least 2.0x if not 2.5x (3.0x is impractical for a starting fleet, but 2.5x can be reached with 15k RPs and is viable).

AMM Fighter: I don't like it. Mounting missile launchers on a fighter means you give up a lot of throw weight, and the speed of a fighter doesn't matter for missiles. Unlike for box ASM launchers an AMM fighter for point defense does not need to fly in front of the fleet to launch an attack, so there's not a lot of reason for to to exist. I would rather put AMMs on the carrier instead.

Missiles: You need to be faster, at ion tech an AMM should be pushing over 40,000 km/s without a lot of trouble. The key for this is again a high EP modifier which you already need for the railgun fighters. Even with your posted techs I can reach 35,000 with MR=12, however with 2.5x EP modifier tech over 40,600 km/s with MR=14 is possible which is a large improvement.

Techs: As a general rule I advise against taking any techs at the start of the game which do not contribute to component designs, as you can research these at the start of the game with no problems. For example, you have taken Wealth Generation 120 and Construction rate 14 BP, which could instead be used to take the 2.5x modifier. If you research those techs after the start of the game, they take effect immediately, however if you research 2.5x EP modifier after the start of the game you must re-design and re-build all of your fighters and missiles which use that tech - which means your outdated ones were a big waste of starting BPs. The same applies for the research rate, shipbuilding, and shipyard operations techs - these could have been for instance the next level of BFC techs which are highly valuable (note that with the BFC techs you have, max range is only 128,000 km/s which means you will have about 30% base accuracy for your 15 cm railguns at maximum range - not ideal if you end up in a running battle). Composite Armour for 5k RP is also a good investment especially for your fighters as fighters suffer disproportionately from the need to have armor.

Summary: Main points are
  • Carrier task force needs to have a more focused design, I would stick with railgun fighters + fast-firing AMMs on the carrier only. Scrap the AMM fighters for this concept.
  • Get up to at least 2.5x engine boost tech, you can do this with minimal trouble. Make everything faster.
  • Fighter needs to be bigger, faster, and have a longer BFC range (even 48,000 km is an improvement).
 
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Offline Warer (OP)

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Wow thanks for the great response I'd love to make one it's equal but I'm tired and on my phone so I'll try and be concise.

IC the justification/reason for the design is that it is a experimental test bed for future TDF designs meant to give humanity experience with a wide variety of weapons systems to help in developing future warfare doctrines. The design flaws are due to inexperience leading to an over focus on the ships carrying capacity to give it a good number of attack craft paradoxically following traditional naval thinking on carriers while trying to pack in potent ship to ship armaments.

Another related/compounding factor is the mass limit to 12kt meaning it was a hard balancing act of three weapons systems and their various needs against the ships other functions, but yes cutting out a hangar deck and using said tonnage for crew accommodations, fuel and magazines is a good idea.

Even though i could redesign the class to fix these issues i don't think i will it makes sense to me that a brand new technology wouldn't be used optimally. These points i feel also apply to the fighters the focus on ironically survivability through redundancy thus making them as small as possible and adding in a minimal Active Sensor. It being felt as experimental first generation platforms they won't last long ib service likely not even seeing combat and definitely not high intensity warfare, support from planetary, orbital or ship based sensors is the expectation it being felt it was more important to get any mobile weapons systems out the door as quickly as possible even if they were suboptimal.

(Sorry for the word vomit)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 07:12:51 PM by Warer »