Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question  (Read 20952 times)

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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »
I have been scouring the internet for other star maps to try and find something that shows hundreds of stars in a clear way but so far I haven't found one. I assume if there is a good way to do this, someone will already have done it. If someone is going to change my mind, pointing me to an example of that type of map is definitely the best way.

Oh, I wasn't trying to change your mind - I was just throwing stuff out there :)

I think the "good way to do this" that "someone will already have done" is full "fly through" 3D rendering, which of course you can't do in VB6.  There's an example at the scale you're looking for at about 3:52 in this clip


An example of what I meant about small rotations in the view giving 3D depth can be found at this app: http://areu.free.fr/univers/index.php - I think the 20ly and 50ly neighborhoods are exactly what you're looking for.

What I was looking for with my googling IIRC was this: http://www.shatters.net/celestia/  I didn't download it today, but I think this is what a colleague showed me a few years ago - it was pretty cool.

Too bad you don't have a good 3D viewport available in VB6....

John
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2011, 01:36:35 PM »
Steve, check out Astrosynthesis from NBOS. You can create a starmap in 3D and export it. Then you'd just need to import it into Aurora. Astrosynthesis also takes care of the generation of the map (though that can be cpu intensive).

Edit: I'd not yet read RedKing's post where he mentions this software also.

Offline Rastaman

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2011, 01:40:39 PM »
What about using multiple reference points, not just Sol?


- Divide the map into square sectors.

- Choose center stars for each sector which are in the same z-plane as Sol. These are reference points. (Alternatively just use absolute coordinates as sector centers and therefore reference)

- Calculate maps for each reference point using your method.

- Blend the maps together. Each star uses coordinates relative to its closest reference point. It is put into the sector with these coordinates. The other multiples are cut out. This will randomize high-Z stars somewhat, but not more than the current method.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2011, 02:07:10 PM »
Riffing on semirandomizing real stars:  Quasireal map mode - Always includes well known stars and those proximate to Sol, but thins out other stars on a per-game basis to reduce clustering. 

 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2011, 02:36:01 PM »
Steve, check out Astrosynthesis from NBOS. You can create a starmap in 3D and export it. Then you'd just need to import it into Aurora. Astrosynthesis also takes care of the generation of the map (though that can be cpu intensive).

Edit: I'd not yet read RedKing's post where he mentions this software also.

Yes, I had a look at Astrosynthesis a few days ago. I could generate star maps but I can't add Aurora-related information to them, such as number of habitable planets, survey status, location of fleets, shipyards, etc, and you wouldn't be able to double-click them to enter a system, or use the right-click menu, etc.. Also, I don't think the developer would be too keen on me buying his product and then distributing it with Aurora :)

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2011, 02:55:27 PM »
Oh, I wasn't trying to change your mind - I was just throwing stuff out there :)

That was a general comment rather directed at you :)

Quote
I think the "good way to do this" that "someone will already have done" is full "fly through" 3D rendering, which of course you can't do in VB6.  There's an example at the scale you're looking for at about 3:52 in this clip


An example of what I meant about small rotations in the view giving 3D depth can be found at this app: http://areu.free.fr/univers/index.php - I think the 20ly and 50ly neighborhoods are exactly what you're looking for.

The 50 LY star map has 133 stars and it isn't that easy to see how some of those stars relate to one another. However, this map is only showing stars that are visible from Earth. That volume of space actually has over 1000 stars, almost all of which are in Aurora. So imagine that map with 8x as many stars displayed and consider how readable it would be

Quote
What I was looking for with my googling IIRC was this: http://www.shatters.net/celestia/  I didn't download it today, but I think this is what a colleague showed me a few years ago - it was pretty cool.

Too bad you don't have a good 3D viewport available in VB6....

I had a look at the screenshots but they were all solar system related rather than interstellar.

Does anyone know of any other 4x games that use a 3D star map? Just looking for inspiration. It may just be me but I find 2D maps far easier to navigate and easily comprehend than 3D ones. The only game I can think of that has a 3D map is EVE and I always use the flattened 2D version. If anyone else plays EVE, which version of the Starmap do you use?

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »
The 50 LY star map has 133 stars and it isn't that easy to see how some of those stars relate to one another. However, this map is only showing stars that are visible from Earth. That volume of space actually has over 1000 stars, almost all of which are in Aurora. So imagine that map with 8x as many stars displayed and consider how readable it would be

Going back to this point, I suppose you would zoom in on a particular star and see how everything else related to that. The map could be displayed with frame of reference based on the currently selected system, rather than a general map. In that way you could navigate around the whole map. Also filtering may be able to reduce the numbers actually displayed. I'll might try something along these lines just to see how workable it would be

Steve
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2011, 03:35:03 PM »
Yes, I had a look at Astrosynthesis a few days ago. I could generate star maps but I can't add Aurora-related information to them, such as number of habitable planets, survey status, location of fleets, shipyards, etc, and you wouldn't be able to double-click them to enter a system, or use the right-click menu, etc.. Also, I don't think the developer would be too keen on me buying his product and then distributing it with Aurora :)

Steve

What I meant was to use AS to generate the maps, then import the data into Aurora. Use it to do some of the grunt work :)

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2011, 03:52:52 PM »
There are now 2200 real star systems for Newtonian Aurora, including every catalogued star of M9 class or above within 50 light years of Earth (which is about 1000 stars)

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2011, 03:54:36 PM »
What I meant was to use AS to generate the maps, then import the data into Aurora. Use it to do some of the grunt work :)

Interesting idea. I would have to look at the data output and see if it is any more useful than the Hipparchus data.

Steve
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2011, 04:53:30 PM »
Quote
Does anyone know of any other 4x games that use a 3D star map? Just looking for inspiration. It may just be me but I find 2D maps far easier to navigate and easily comprehend than 3D ones. The only game I can think of that has a 3D map is EVE and I always use the flattened 2D version. If anyone else plays EVE, which version of the Starmap do you use?

The only ones I can think of were
master of orion 3 http://reviews.cnet.com/pc-games/master-of-orion-iii/4528-9696_7-30989341-2.html

ascendancy . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AscendancyGameParameters.png

Regarding Eve, before I kicked the habit I must admit that I flattened the map but have to say with Eve jump gates it was more the route than the distance and when using a carrier I just used an external program to find me the best route. Where distance and hence travel time will be far more important I can how 3d could be more interesting but happy with a flat map in any case as per the old Elite maps even.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 05:00:38 PM by chrislocke2000 »
 

Offline GeaXle

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2011, 06:17:07 PM »
Quote
If anyone else plays EVE, which version of the Starmap do you use?

I only use the 3D map, because I don't like when stars are stack on each others, and for who knows reason, I just need the spatial sense of where I am. But reading all this, I realize that in EVE, the map is actually quite flat anyway, and there are the lines between systems that helps having a sense of depth. I guess a 3D map in Aurora would need some kinds of line, like constellation or whatever to help visualise the 3D. I know that real constelation wouldn't work as they are from an earth point of view. But it could be premaind "sectors" or something.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2011, 03:58:24 AM »
I like the clustering Idea, where you pick a random, large enough star and create a cluster based on it.
Stars in the border regions could be randomly assigned to one cluster, and thus might have slightly different positions.

I also really like the idea of having a large 2D map and when selecting a star it shows you the select distance around it in 3D.
You could also partially flatten it, like picking a cluster with a radius of, say, 75 LY, and giving it a maximum height of 50, and everything above that would be cut down by 50% Z coordinate or to 50 LY displacement, whatever is less change.
That way, it'd limit it to a reasonable sphere the player can look at.

The reason I suggested that some stars are not reachable (they don't need to be invisible, though toggling would be nice) was that otherwise, basically every game would play the same, the player visits the closest systems first that are large enough to have a good chance for whatever. Whatever's worth your fuel.
Those stars needn't be of limits, just not reachable in the start of the game, maybe require Hyper-Level 3 or just counting as a higher distance for the risk/accuracy.
Where, I suppose that horse's been beaten.^^
 

Offline Beersatron

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2011, 04:22:26 AM »
That was a general comment rather directed at you :)

The 50 LY star map has 133 stars and it isn't that easy to see how some of those stars relate to one another. However, this map is only showing stars that are visible from Earth. That volume of space actually has over 1000 stars, almost all of which are in Aurora. So imagine that map with 8x as many stars displayed and consider how readable it would be

I had a look at the screenshots but they were all solar system related rather than interstellar.

Does anyone know of any other 4x games that use a 3D star map? Just looking for inspiration. It may just be me but I find 2D maps far easier to navigate and easily comprehend than 3D ones. The only game I can think of that has a 3D map is EVE and I always use the flattened 2D version. If anyone else plays EVE, which version of the Starmap do you use?

Steve

I use the flattened 2D version of the Eve map - it is perfectly readable and usable.

In my opinion, for something this complex and information display intensive, you have to make some sort of compromise to make it usable in the end. If you were creating a navigational program for some kind of interstellar transport then yeah, make it realistic. But you are making a game/tech-dictionary for your fiction so use a couple of grains of salt :)
 

Offline Mormota

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Re: Newtonian Aurora - Galactic Map Question
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2011, 06:33:45 AM »
Sword of the Stars 2 has a 3D map, it might be worth checking out.