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Offline Drgong

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Game discussion
« on: April 06, 2016, 10:31:24 AM »
This thread is for out of character team discussion, for anything from house-cleaning to deciding on setting.   All teams are welcomed and encouraged to post here. 


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Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 10:48:19 AM »
Background proposal.


The Year is 2100.   Humans suddenly know that they are not alone.

There had been hints, unknown items recovered from the Tunguska event, in the Canadian Shield and Yellowstone, and in the deep mines of South Africa.  Only when the all three groups of items were researched together, two important discoveries were made.   Some sort of Alien race made these items, and once accepting that they use 12-base numbering, that technology that breaks the very concept of Newtonian physics exists.   Research Labs in Russia, the North American Union, and South Africa released the stunning information on December 30, 2099.   The new space race had begun.


The world is dominated by three major powers. 

 The North American Union, consisting of the United States, Canada, and Mexico (insert Team 2 background)

 The Russian confederation (Insert team 1 background),

 The Free State Alliance, a collection of pariah states ranging from a Afrikaner ruled South Africa to the secular state of Iran.
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Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 10:52:35 AM »
Just so everyone see what the buildings will be

Academies - 2
Research Laboratories - 25
Mines - 180
Auto Mines - 20
Conventional Industry - 1600
Naval Shipyard - 1
Commercial Shipyard - 1
Deep Space Tracking Stations - 1
Maintenance Facilities - 5
Ground Force Training Facilities - 2

In addition, each team has 32 ICBM complexes.  Also, I SMed in that each side has the ability to communicate with each other. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 10:56:30 AM by Drgong »
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Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 11:03:51 AM »
Hmm, I don't care where the ship parts are found in the end (could be Roswell, for all I care), but lets not spread them out over all the planet. One site, or else it becomes hard to believe that the findings would just happen to coincide.
...Unless the rudimentary TN scanning technology (or some signals activated) from the first ship/artifacts made possible to find other ancient wreckage, well, then they could be everywhere in hindsight, so that would be believable.
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Offline Red Dot

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 11:14:20 AM »
Quote from: Drgong link=topic=8517. msg88999#msg88999 date=1459957699
The North American Union, consisting of the United States, Canada, and Mexico (insert Team 2 background)

Formed out of the chaos of the Second Great Depression of 2033, the initial economic steps of an enhanced North American Free Trade Accord (NAFTA) were so successful that further continental integration occurred in the 2040s and 2050s.  By 2077, all three nation-states of the USA, Canada and Mexico were ready to cede their sovereignty to the formation of the North American Union.  On 1 August 2077, the creation documents were signed by all three parties at the Geogrpahic Center of the Continent in Rugby, North Dakota.   The Rugby documents (the Declaration of Union and the Constitution) quelled the last reserves of the nationalists in all three nation-states and was a clear victory for the continentalist parties.   The North American Continentalist Party won the first North American elections on 1 March 2078 and has been in power for most of the latter part of the 21st Century.  The NACP has developed a platform of Enhanced Manifest Destiny for North America.   The discoveries of late 2099 has simply given them a new direction - MANIFEST DESTINY in SPAAAACE!
 

Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 11:40:09 AM »
Espionage proposal -

Espionage is lightly built into Aurora, but since I have SM control, and I know both teams want to do espionage, I will have a simple proposal for some added fun to the espionage gameplay.

In addition to the Aurora Espionage, the following is proposed.

Espionage team that is formed and is not targeted is working "Counter espionage"

Every year after the first two years (To give enough time for the academies to produce 5 Espionage officers) on Jan 1 I will make a roll.

(Targeted Espionage Rating + 1d100) - (Counter Espionage rating + 1d100) = Espionage Score

I will only use the rating of the highest untargeted score to generate the Counter Espionage rating.

If the Score is less then 0, nothing happens. (Spying failed)
Low wins (~<20) would be simple stuff, like Geological survey info
good wins (~ <40) might be a info of what they are researching at this time. Location of a task force,  or so
Big wins (~ <80) would be a snapshot of what their industry is doing or some other important information.
Huge wins (+100) would be a technology, class information on a random class, or so on.


So for example, Team Green sends a team with a rating of 75 to spy on Team Blue
Team blue has a unassigned team with a score of 115

if both get rolls of 50, the final score would be -35
if green rolled 100, and blue rolled a 5, the score would be 55, and  the Team Green would find out that Team Green is researching lasers 12cm and Grav Sensor 10. 

For a penalty on the roll, the espionage team can seek specific information
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 11:44:28 AM by Drgong »
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Offline Red Dot

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 12:06:30 PM »
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 12:15:03 PM »
Drgong, please slow down a bit. I wrote some story snipped open for discussion, and you had it implemented and warped instantly without anyone having chance to say something. Now you come up with espionage which I said I would make a more detailed proposition.(and have actually been writing on for a while now)
We all live in different time zones here, and if I happened to be asleep in the last 3 hours, I would have missed all this. Give it a bit of time.
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Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 12:22:28 PM »
Drgong, please slow down a bit. I wrote some story snipped open for discussion, and you had it implemented and warped instantly without anyone having chance to say something. Now you come up with espionage which I said I would make a more detailed proposition.(and have actually been writing on for a while now)
We all live in different time zones here, and if I happened to be asleep in the last 3 hours, I would have missed all this. Give it a bit of time.

Fair enough Vandermeer, I been working on a expanded espionage system as well, and want to keep it easy on myself running it. 

In addition, if you don't like the proposal just say so.  I am not going to get my feelings hurt.   

This is the only thing set in stone

Quote
The Year is 2100.   

The world is dominated by three major powers. 
 
 The Russian Confederation (Insert team 1 background),

 The North American Union, consisting of the United States, Canada, and Mexico (insert Team 2 background)

 The Free State Alliance, (Insert team 0 background).

I will be more then happy to look at your espionage ideas, I was throwing it out for discussion. 
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Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 01:11:27 PM »
Game reports

Before I head off and do real life stuff, I wanted to show what would be in reports to the players.   
I am using the Admin empire so no team secret info is released.  In addition, I would screen cap

1. Anything requested by a player
2. anything of note.
3.  Teams can request a specific screen cap to be in their report, or exclude one of these as unneeded. 

I will post them at the start of each "turn" so players can track what is going on.   


The Outer system scan for sol.   


Inner System Scan

Note, you will see that ships are already detected.   Each team has 32 ICBM bases that the sensors detect.


Empire Summary.  This gives the basic info.   All Empires start the same.


The all important Manufacturing page.   This goes over what you are manufacturing.


The mining page.   As you can see, I added extra resources on earth since we have three empires who will be mining it.  With 180 mines and 20 automines we should avoid the early game issue of autoturns failing due to shortages of Sorium for the fuel production.


Shipyard screen.   Each empire starts with 1 naval and one Commercial shipyard.  Right now I autonamed them but teams can of course rename their shipyards.


Research screen - this updates you on what is being researched at this time.  All empires start with 25 labs.  I did redact my scientists as that is a state secret!  ;)


« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 01:19:16 PM by Drgong »
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Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 04:38:47 PM »
In addition, if you don't like the proposal just say so.  I am not going to get my feelings hurt.
It is good in the way that we already get a bell-curve distribution, but there are flaws in:
- not accounting for multiple teams / heightened effort, which a larger nation should be able to put out
- not involving staff (perfect opportunity to finally give that intel-officer purpose)
- only allowing a single event in a certain time scale, while realistically intel-war might be more intense in some cases

I pretty much took over the severity ranking of your result table though, but also added some things, mostly coming from our RP opportunities here.
-----

(in the following, green text is explanation for a certain mechanic's existence/purpose)
(TLDR: there is a super short summary at the end for good overview instead of explanation. The whole section before the table can essentially be skipped and is only for further interest or to clear up missunderstanding)

Concerning Intel
This espionage system attempts to balance between active spying and manipulation, and the counter-intelligence in such way, that defense is working slightly more reliably, but also doesn't completely eliminate the chance of even a weak attempt possibly getting through here and there. This should keep the unwanted ingame need to maximize the sector at bay, while making everything about it more interesting. It also gives much more excitement to the position "intelligence-minister" or however a faction governs this.

Skill point generation
Officer skill is the only factor that determines the overall chance of success. Firstly, a nation features a counter-intelligence score determined by the best intelligence rating that any officer staff currently located in the capital system has.



The active spying efforts against a nation on the other hand are determined by the Aurora skill level of the best team assigned against that particular nation.



{Obviously this favors defense, as you only need to depend on one highest skilled officer, who gets that multiplied by 5 ("a one man team" essentially), and then also receives eventual Admiral boni. A 60% officer could alone get a perfect rating of 300 this way.
On the high end of scores when closing in to 100%, the effects are even exponentially better, but can still be countered partly (s.b.)}



Any additional team assigned hereby betters this score by only 1/5th. {e.g. Two teams of 180 and 150 would generate a total score of 210 (=180+150/5) }
Any espionage team that is not assigned, and even additional staff on the other hand contribute to defense in the same way, except that staff only brings about 1/10th of the usual score. {A staff of score 200 with an additional staff of score 140 and an unassigned team of score 120 would thus accumulate to 238 (=200+14+24) }

Setting things up like this essentially ensures that even a small and weak nation can have near impenetrable defense at first, but a really dedicated and large nation could still muster up the resource to punch through if it really sacrifices for that.

Now, every year an espionage team had been assigned to operate against another nation, it tests its skill randomly with a chance that is:


If the attack succeeds, the counter-intel rolls against their own defense score with the same math involved. Should the counter-intel fail, the attacking side gets 1 "Intel-Point" to be used later, and receives another attack throw against the same chance, but with a ceiling of 90% for the chance. {...so to make infinite wins from theoretic score 300 teams going up against no defenses impossible}

Example:
The "NSA-rulez" espionage team has a total score of 240, granting it 80% chance to succeed.
Konteradmiral "Iron Curtain" Dimitri had an additional team (rating 75) placed for internal affairs, so that his staff's rating of 155 gained another 15 points for a total of 170, so ~57%.
The NSA throws 64 and succeeds, while Dimitri throws a 69 in jubilation, but fails.
NSA gets 1 Intel-Point and gets to try again, this time throwing 74, - another success.
Dimitri, slowly adapting to the concept that lower means better, receives a 11, stopping the second incursion.

This year ends with NSA gaining 1 Intel Point to spend later.


In addition to the above, a score higher than 300 for the attacking team means that this additional value gets deducted from the enemy counter-intelligence.

Example:
NSA now involves german and swedish secret services in its operations, giving it an amazing score of 330 to breach the motherland's motherboards.
Not expecting this degree of puppeteering, Dimitri has his team's rating reduced to mere 140, so ~47%.
While NSA doesn't even have to make a first throw due to 100% success chance, Dimitri fails in his defense with just a 48.
"Borscht and Adidas!" he screams, as NSA prepares for it's second incursion on a 90% chance.(the highest for follow-ups)
They throw a 3 and continue to leak data, as Dimitri fails even the second throw with a 81.

This will continue on and on, granting an Intel-Point for every unparried success, until Dimitri finally rolls 47 or lower, or NSA does get a higher result than 90.



Intel-Points
Intel-Points are most securely spent immediately, but can also tried to be banked to save up for greater leaks or operations.
If an Intel-Point is at the end of the year not spent by a team, and new points are getting rolled, every such Intel-Point must pass against a score of the highest intel staff score times five:


Contrary to counter-intelligence, this score cannot be aided by other teams or staff. Only the highest counts.

This mechanic makes sure that the higher tier infiltration are possible, but also really difficult to achieve for an unskilled agency. Saving up should be risky, and big events something dramatic, so lesser meddling hopefully stays more common with this.

Intel-Points can be spent in various ways, and nothing speaks against "purchasing" a particular event multiple times.

Below is a table of what a certain level of effort can gain. (I went a bit OCD in trying to figure this out, so, uhm, it has gotten longer, and I am not even sure of correctness)

Cost|SurveyMilitaryGovernmentScienceSabotage
1Reveal one jump point's general location, or one bodies mineralsReveal a snippet of general design information about a design of choice (e.g. "Beam/Missile armed", "Long/short range", "Has ECM", "weak armor" etc.)

-Secret Project: Especially shield a design against enemy intelligence. Costs for any info rise by one category, and the nation gets informed when a leak still happens.
One of those:
-Name all the political and military leaders with their corresponding position

-Generalized industrial of last year ("had mostly constructed mines,  then some PDC")

-Generalized future plans(no obligation to keep them), like "colonize Mars", "expand mining sites or just Earth". Nothing military.

- Mess with voting (Votings of next year get a "Ghost-vote" equivalent of one player in random directions. Ghost-votes cannot exceed current maximum votes, so 50:50 order and chaos at max. Suffering nation is aware)
-Current area focus (Logistics, Power, etc.) revealed with hindsight on last years occupation

-Misdirection: Leave 5% of research labs pursuing random theoretic technology for next year.
Either:
- hinder Earth mining (reduce current stock of a single resource by 20% of years income)

- hinder mining delivery (reduce stock of all resources by 20% of an external mining site)

- hinder construction (reduce maximum construction by 5%, which are now free; or 10% if either choosing ordnance or fighter production)
2-Reveal direction of survey (which systems survey ships are in or heading to)

-Reveal an archeology site or science bonus site (you get informed that there is one once another 2+ point purchase in survey espionage had been made, but have to buy the information then)

-Reveal specifics about a science vessel design if not armed
-Reveal number of ground troops on a colony or Earth

-Reveal general sets of of ammunition ("2 designs for AMM, 1 ASM, one larger torpedo, 1 buoy/mine"), or reveal specifics of a certain type ("identify one of the AMMs please")

-Reveal a single exact number about a chosen ship/PDC design (Speed, one sensor strength, armor strength, range, even crew number)

-Tell the location and heading of a fleet currently out of sight (sharpness: "tell system" if in uninhabited one, or "tell body/vicinity to body" in colonized systems)
-Printout of current amounts of mines and factories on a colony

-Current population number of a colony, along with growth rate and Administrator skills
-Reveal an unknown colony location (information about unknown colony sheer existence is leaked by purchasing 2+ point events in the government section elsewhere)

-Receive information about all officers asked for (would ask for whole list, but is difficult to do in Aurora; instead maybe "leading scientists of every area" and "all task group leading fleet officers and the staff officers"
-Exact reading of current research projects

-Information about the progress in a sector of technology ("Propulsion stands roughly at TL3" or "has just entered construction TL2")

-Inquire about existence of a certain tech ("have they jump gate const. module?")
-as in Intel 1, but steal the resources instead of just hindering.

-delay a fleets movement for 1 month (not against fighting fleets; if combat breaks out somewhere and the fleet wishes to join, it is freed of the delay; Also: fleets of greater importance or surveillance may cost much more Intel Points - this would need consultation with Drgong)

-precise sensor dodging (detection immunity for either a certain chosen fleet, or against a certain sensor/or colony. Cannot chose fleets entangled in combat. Lasts for sensor field entry to exit, or 1 month per purchase if the fleet doesn't plan to move out)
4-Reveal a complete system survey, minerals+JP

-Space Jam: Block a system for (further) survey attempts (block can be relieved by other side paying 2 points later on)
-Gain complete design information about a certain ship. This costs 2 points more if it concerns a ship with much innovation compared to other known designs of that nation (engines, or mostly updated weaponry), and another 2 points more if it is the first ship to ever be analyzed for that faction

-Revoke transfer of land troops: Nation cannot transfer troops this year to places where the attacker has ground unit too

-False orders: Send a couple ships on a 10b detour, or lock a couple more in task force training. Should conflict break out, they are free to act again.

-Mix up officer assignment of a ship. Either random, or a specific officer if he/she is known and not serving as staff.
-Gain a complete screen of a single colony, seeing the whole colony summary window, the production queue, and the stockpiles

-Industrial espionage: Receive 5% of their wealth for the next year as "gift"

-Budget Cut: Disband a ground battalion (no brigade or division command; can come cheaper with rising amounts of forces)

-Maintain surveillance about votes for a year, getting sketchy information whenever votes happen and about what in general, but not the outcome.

-Shut down fuel refineries on a colony for a year.(cost 8 when chosen consecutively)
-Learn what technologies of a whole line of research the nation knows so far. (e.g. "laser focal strength")-Sabotage a random ship and apply damage to it.(warhead techx10??) To pick out a singular ship, the Intel costs move one category up.

-Laxatives, bought doctors, bribery: Have a ship go without officer for a year, while having him on board.("not in working condition")
8-Synchronize with that nation's whole galactic survey archive

-Take over a freighter-fleet bringing shipments from a ruin planet or alien wrecks (preferably loaded with components), then give it back after unloading in own colony
-Treason and Moles: A chosen ship or PDC(!) does not fire during first eventual engagement next year.

-Informant: Know all the nation's ships position if needed.(including camouflaged ones) This is a flash scan, but can be repeated for a year for just another 1 Intel Point every time.

-Gain technical information about all weapons of a certain type (e.g. all lasers or all launchers), or all available sensor designs
-Attempt to retire officer or government personnel (another intel check at half chance vs. counter-intel for this to confirm)

-Generate 1 player weight of vote in the other nation. Will be randomly assigned unless "surveillance" from tier 4 is also chosen, in which case detailed voting and knowledge about topic is granted. Existing Votes need 1 Intel Points per year to maintain. Maximum amount of bought votes to real ones is 50:50

-Propaganda Campaign: Take over 5% of their population. (?maybe too much?)
-Abduct a chosen scientist to your nation (another intel at half chance check vs. counter-intel for this to confirm)

-Gain a chosen technology, excluding racial tech(?)

-Shutdown research labs (obviously needs time to boot up again after this)

- Reveal information about all their engine designs, or all jump engines.
-Attempt to assassinate officer or government personnel (another intel check at half chance vs. counter-intel for this to confirm)

-Hijack ship of choice (another intel check vs. counter-intel for this to confirm)

-Destroy 10% of construction factories or mines on inhabited colony, or 20% of either refineries, ordnance or fighter factories. A unmanned mining colony may lose as much mines as the attacker has ordnance factories.


The ultra rare events that make espionage teams do something in Aurora vanilla should just be considered bonus to that in my opinion.

The table is likely lacking a lot of possible things, but of course it can be adjusted, and also if you think stuff should be in different categories. Maybe science and survey should be the same thing.
All in all, the severity scale "feeling" is the most important thing about it here, because with that we can just ask Drgong if another thing that is not in the table would work later, and how much points he wants for that.




Let me now any criticism, and I hope I didn't make it appear too complex. It may look like that written out, but it is mostly one two simple checks whose scores are easy to look up.
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Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 06:19:04 PM »
I really like some of these ideas, and only lukewarm to some.  It is simple, but sounds complex.


Here is a idea to merge the two ideas somewhat.


Espionage is lightly built into Aurora, but since I have SM control, and I know both teams want to do espionage, I will have a simple proposal for some added fun to the espionage gameplay.

In addition to the Aurora Espionage, the following is proposed.

Espionage team that is formed and is not targeted is working "Counter espionage"

*Note, in the first two years I will roll this assuming a team of 75 points exists for counter Espionage (unless a higher one exists) as by the luck you might not even have 5 officers with the training at the start.


(Targeted Espionage Rating +Intel Staff officer + 1d100) - (Counter Espionage rating + (Intel Staff officer x 1.25) + 1d100) = Espionage Score

I will only use the rating of the highest untargeted team score to generate the Counter Espionage rating.

If the Score is less then 0, nothing happens. (Spying failed)
Wins by 1-10 is equal to 1 point.
Wins by 20-30 is equal to 2 points
wins by 30-70 is worth 3 points
Wins by 70-120 is worth 4 points
wins by 120+ is worth 5 points of espionage.

Even if the spy roll fails, a roll of 90-100 generates 1 point.   

if points are not spent in the year, 1/2 (rounding down) carry over to the next year.

1 point

- Reveal one jump point's general location, or one bodies minerals
- Reveal a snippet of general design information about a design of choice (e.g. "Beam/Missile armed", "Long/short range", "Has ECM", "weak armor" etc.)
- List of the staff officers for the side
- Generalized industrial of last year ("had mostly constructed mines,  then some PDC")
- Current area focus (Logistics, Power, etc.)
- 10 regular mines are knocked offline for the rest of the year (I will SM them out and then back in Jan 1)

2 point

- Reveal direction of survey (which systems survey ships are in or heading to)
- Reveal an archeology site or science bonus site (of course, if they don't know a extra site, these points are wasted except you know they don't know)
- Reveal specifics about one part of a ship (Sensor specs, Tube sizes and numbers, magazine size, Powerplant, Number of engines OR power, number and type of beam weapons.)
- Printout of current amounts of mines and factories on a colony
- Exact reading of current research projects
- Inquire about existence of a certain tech ("have they jump gate const. module?")
- reassign a NPC officer

3 point
 - Counter Espionage, remove one point on your empire by spending 3.
 - The current status of the shipyards orbiting one planet.   

4 points

- Gain a chosen technology (Must only be one step, for example, if you are at 10cm laser, and try to steal 15 cm laser, you would get the 12 cm laser.)
- Listing of the summary, Mining, Industry, and research of one colony/home-world

5 points

- Learn the design specs for a class of your choice


All empires start with 2 points that cannot be used to knock out mines.   
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Offline DIT_grue

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 07:47:19 AM »
Confining my points to Drgong's revised proposal:

In some ways I think Aurora's baked-in mechanisms are a hindrance when the SM is trying to run their own system. (For instance, the technology diffusion limits what you can do there - especially since, IIUC, using an espionage team necessarily creates a way for them to automatically benefit from your old research even if that's the only connection in existance.) Still, that's at least partly irrelevant given the shared homeworld.

Checking I have understood correctly when the Espionage Score test happens - once per year, at the end of the year?

"Even if the spy roll fails, a roll of 90-100 generates 1 point." Actually, it might be good if that applied to both of them (i.e. if attacker rolled 92 and the defender rolled 99, the defender would get 1 point against the attacker and the attacker would get (1 + whatever the Score is worth) points against the defender).

"Reveal direction of survey (which systems survey ships are in or heading to)" Of course, if the spying nation doesn't know about those systems, it should be something like: <A system 2 jumps beyond Manticore.>


It seems like a promising system, with lots of room for interesting shenanigans but not wrapping the whole game around itself.
 

Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 08:55:41 AM »
I am fine for both rolls to be able to generate a point.

Also it just a proposal, and if you have a idea of what you want to use spy points for, one could propose it or after the game starts, discreetly discuss the point cost.

I do not want actions that can

1 - Alter the voting of a team

2 - cause massive disruption (More then having mines go offline for the rest of the year) or ships blowing up.   I will reserve ships blowing up to combat. 
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http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=235.0
Also check out my stories, including Interactive tales.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=239.0
 

Offline Drgong

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Re: Game discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 09:58:31 AM »
Teams, please check your PMs, you should have a link to your reports.
Check out or Join my Community Game
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=235.0
Also check out my stories, including Interactive tales.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=239.0
 

 

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