Fighters and how to make them?

[Zincat]

Hmmm I guess I play very differently from most people. I rarely push jump points very aggressively. Thus the point is rather moot. I'd rather have the flexibility.

I think that pushing hard can be excessively dangerous. I generally only push within a certain range from capital and colonies. If it's beyond x billions km from my colonies, where x depends on my current engine and fuel consumption tech, I wait.
No point in exploring a system that could be full of NASTIES and that I can't even develop/exploit. Unless I'm critically short on some mineral, of course, then I have to keep searching.

Disclaimer, I play conventional start and with high NPR discovery chance. Thus, the risk that exploring a JP will create an NPR that is far ahead of me is very real. And very dangerous.

[Gabethebaldandbold]

It takes almost zero micro to automate dual surveyors.

Time to survey some systems?
Give one surveyor standing orders
1) survey nearest body (or nearest five if you like)
2) move to system requiring geo survey.

Give the rest of your surveyors standing orders to
1) survey nearest survey location (or nearest three if you like)
2) move to system requiring grav survey.

Give them all whatever conditional orders you prefer for refueling/overhauling/etc.

If your gravs get too far ahead of your geos, switch a grav to geo.
If a geo runs out of work to do, switch it to grav.
If your gravs run out of work, you aren't exploring new JPs fast enough.

if you do single purpose survey vessels, you just need to do one of those, automate refueling and resuply, and overhaul them every so and so years. literally just that.

[Droll]

I use dual-surveyors just to make logistics easier.
Making two designs is more cost effective, but not having to manage the ratio of types to send to each system saves quite a bit of micro.

This is especially useful if one uses reduced research and survey rate like me. Since survey ships use a precious naval shipyad, and it's hard to know beforehand how many you will need...
If we talk about ships (not fighters), it's just better to make survey ships that are 1000 or so tons larger, but are capable of performing both tasks. That way you do not have to juggle them in complicated way, and allocating more to important systems dscovered is smoother.

Also, I question the fact that single task ships are more efficient. Sure they are on paper, from a design point of view.... but you never know what you're going to find. Your more efficient ships will be useless if you are in a situation where half of them can't be used. Maybe you made 5 geosurvey ships... and then you find 2-3 systems with a ton of planets and want to survey those asap. With 5% survey speed, that takes a LONG time.
All your grav survey ships will not help in that situation.

I'm just saying, since dual-task survey ships are only marginally larger, but are a lot more flexible, I think that in c aurora they are definitely a more sensible options in a lot of cases.

IMO the biggest argument against dual-purpose survey ships is automation.

If my geo and grav survey ships are separate I can use standard orders to fully automate them - this is especially true if your like me and take in the 25% morale penalty into account when designing them. The only time I take control of my survey fleet is when a system has precursors/NPRs and I have to designate it as alien controlled

It takes almost zero micro to automate dual surveyors.

Time to survey some systems?
Give one surveyor standing orders
1) survey nearest body (or nearest five if you like)
2) move to system requiring geo survey.

Give the rest of your surveyors standing orders to
1) survey nearest survey location (or nearest three if you like)
2) move to system requiring grav survey.

Give them all whatever conditional orders you prefer for refueling/overhauling/etc.

If your gravs get too far ahead of your geos, switch a grav to geo.
If a geo runs out of work to do, switch it to grav.
If your gravs run out of work, you aren't exploring new JPs fast enough.

I find it bizarre that you call that "almost zero" micro. With specialized ships all I do is is set their standing orders and forget about them until a- I want to explore a new system, which is as simple as sending a grav ship with one command or b- I stumble on aliens which is something I want to pay attention to anyways.

In comparison what you suggest requires you to monitor all your surveyors to see which are idle and then constantly juggle their standing orders around.
I can't lie, what you suggest is leagues more efficient but I absolutely disagree that the micro burden it places on oneself is negligible or "almost zero"

[skoormit]

I find it bizarre that you call that "almost zero" micro. With specialized ships all I do is is set their standing orders and forget about them until a- I want to explore a new system, which is as simple as sending a grav ship with one command or b- I stumble on aliens which is something I want to pay attention to anyways.

In comparison what you suggest requires you to monitor all your surveyors to see which are idle and then constantly juggle their standing orders around.
I can't lie, what you suggest is leagues more efficient but I absolutely disagree that the micro burden it places on oneself is negligible or "almost zero"

I never monitor to see which ones are idle. When a ship can't follow its standing orders, you get an event interrupt.
All I do is set their standing orders and forget about them until I get an interrupt that they can't find anything to do, or a message that one has exceeded its deployment time.
They have deployment times of five years. It is very rare that I have to manually do anything between overhauls. And overhauls are just a one-time "go here, refuel/resupply, overhaul" task, and then it picks up where it left off.

Literally the only difference between what you do and what I do is that once in a blue moon I switch the standing orders of a single ship from one type to the other.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I tend to have a mix of both specialised and none specialised ships... it also depend on when in the development of things I'm at.

There also are many role-play reasons for why certain ships get chosen and others not. I might put a rather high importance on survival ability and that will have big impact on how the ships are developed and these ships are rather expensive as they are and might as well be capable of both jobs or at least carry some geo survey crafts in a hangar.

In terms of efficiency I believe that carrying some geo survey crafts make you ships the most efficient. But also having some specialised as well does not hurt either.

[Droll]

I never monitor to see which ones are idle. When a ship can't follow its standing orders, you get an event interrupt.

I always forget that this is a thing, for my own sanity I always hide the standing orders interrupt and since I never use auto-turns it doesn't affect me.

I only get really pissed off with the increment adjusters - but that usually is because I'm getting shot at by missiles which IMO is a valid reason to get pissed.

[Droll]

In terms of efficiency I believe that carrying some geo survey crafts make you ships the most efficient. But also having some specialised as well does not hurt either.

In my last VB6 game I had a carrier with like 5 geo-survey shuttles. The carrier itself was also a gravsurvey ship, the idea being that the shuttles would fly out and survey the system while the mothership did the gravsurvey. Once the fighters were done they'd return to their mothership which was either still doing the grav-survey or loitering about.

This was made easier because the VB6 naval OOB handled sub-fleets much better than right now (fleet orders were a separate menu from the OOB (the OOB was optional)), sub-fleets would actually remember their standing orders between docking/undocking as well as detachments from their parent fleet.

[serger]

Switching between tasks of dual-purpose surveiors gives you an illusion of efficiency only.

Yes, you may have no idle ships, but look at the component level: you have smth about 1/2 of survey components idle half the time. It is possible, of course, that survey components are only a small part of your survey ships, so this idle part looks small too and thus not a big problem, but in this case it means that your survey ships are inefficient at all!
Surveyors have to move a lot in deep space, survey components are quite big and expensive, crew quarters and engineering spaces for them are not very cheap too (and cannot be switched off), so in terms of efficiency you must have no more components onboard them, than you have to complete their tasks and return home safely. You cannot economize anything by joining surveyor sensors, because it's just nearly doubling your ship size. The more ship size - the more dangerous survey is, because you just cannot make efficient surveyour, that will be battle-effective too. Survey components are just too big and crew-exigent.

As for additional micromanagement, it have to be compared with inevitable part of micro, linked to survey process. You just have to look at any system you have surveyed, to evaluate it, rename/prefix if needed, drop buois, create colonies and routes, assign administrators and so on. Giving next task to your surveyors is not very big job of work comparing to this inevitable part of process.

[xenoscepter]

OP started this thread asking for help with fighters, might I suggest moving the discussion of which surveyor is best elsewhere?

 --- That said, I decided to make a fighter that would serve as both a Geological Surveyor and a Gravitational Surveyor. I also whipped up a mothership for it. Both designs surely have room for improvement, and they were both created in about 10-15 minutes... so consider them more as "proofs of concept" then anything else. The technologies used in these designs are: Nuclear Thermal Engines, Duranium Armor, Commercial Hangar Deck, Commercial Magazine 100, Maintenance Module, Commercial Damage Control, Geological Survey Sensors, Gravitational Survey Sensors, Jump Point Theory, Jump Drive Efficiency 4, Max Jump Squadron Size - 3, Max Squadron Jump Radius - 50k, Primary Flight Control, Troop Transport Bay - Standard.

 --- The Primary Flight Control reduces reload / refuel times for fighters. I was unsure whether or not I could make a GeoProbe without engines, so I placed a 0.1 engine with 50% power and a tiny amount of fuel with the goal being to create the smallest probe possible. The Geo Sensor takes up 80% of the missile's mass, while the fuel and the engine take up 10% each.

 - These are the designs:
*The Doghouse Class has a range of 9.8 Billion KM despite what is listed, 250,000 litres is reserved for the Beagle Class Survey Craft. The -B variant has a range of 13.5 Billion KM with 500,000 litres reserved for it's Survey Craft. The Beagle GeoProbe has roughly 26 days of flight time for a total of about 24 Survey Points per missile.

Beagle Class Survey Craft:

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Beagle class Survey Craft      500 tons       15 Crew       128.1 BP       TCS 10    TH 5    EM 0
500 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 0/0/1/0      DCR 0      PPV 0.3
Maint Life 10.08 Years     MSP 128    AFR 7%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 2    5YR 34    Max Repair 100 MSP
Magazine 2   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 4.4 months    Morale Check Required   

Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP2.50 (2)    Power 5.0    Fuel Use 55.90%    Signature 2.50    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 9,000 Litres    Range 5.8 billion km (134 days at full power)

Size 1 Box Launcher (2)     Missile Size: 1    Hangar Reload 50 minutes    MF Reload 8 hours
Missile Fire Control FC2-R1 (1)     Range 2.5m km    Resolution 1
Beagle GeoProbe (2)    Speed: 200 km/s    End: 26.4d     Range: 455.4m km    WH: 0    Size: 1.00    TH: 0/0/0

Gravitational Survey Sensors (1)   1 Survey Points Per Hour

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
Beagle GeoProbe:

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Missile Size: 1.00 MSP  (2.500 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 200 km/s     Fuel: 50     Flight Time: 632 hours     Range: 455.4m km
Geo Sensor Strength: 0.04     Geo Points Per Day: 0.96
Cost Per Missile: 0.064     Development Cost: 6
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 2.0%   3k km/s 0.7%   5k km/s 0.4%   10k km/s 0.2%

Materials Required
Boronide  0.024
Uridium  0.04
Fuel:  50
Doghouse Class Exploration Ship:

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Doghouse class Exploration Ship      30,000 tons       345 Crew       1,448 BP       TCS 600    TH 250    EM 0
416 km/s    JR 2-25(C)      Armour 2-86       Shields 0-0       HTK 78      Sensors 1/1/0/0      DCR 25      PPV 0
MSP 2,512    Max Repair 300 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 1,000 tons     Troop Capacity 350 tons     Magazine 100    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1   
Captain    Control Rating 2   BRG   PFC   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Flight Crew Berths 20   
Maintenance Modules: 1 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 1,000 tons

JC30K Commercial Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 30000 tons    Distance 25k km     Squadron Size 2

Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62.5 (4)    Power 250.0    Fuel Use 11.18%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 432,000 Litres    Range 23.1 billion km (643 days at full power)

Beagle GeoProbe (100)    Speed: 200 km/s    End: 26.4d     Range: 455.4m km    WH: 0    Size: 1.00    TH: 0/0/0
Ordnance Transfer Rate: 40 MSP per hour     Complete Transfer 2.5 hours

Active Search Sensor AS17-R500 (1)     GPS 1500     Range 17.3m km    Resolution 500
Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (1)     GPS 3     Range 2.2m km    MCR 196.7k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km
EM Sensor EM0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
Doghouse -B Class Exploration Ship

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Doghouse -B class Exploration Ship      30,000 tons       353 Crew       1,557.4 BP       TCS 600    TH 250    EM 0
416 km/s      Armour 2-86       Shields 0-0       HTK 89      Sensors 1/1/0/0      DCR 25      PPV 0
MSP 5,266    Max Repair 200 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 2,000 tons     Troop Capacity 3,350 tons     Magazine 200    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 2   
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   PFC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12.1 months    Flight Crew Berths 40   
Maintenance Modules: 2 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 2,000 tons

Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62.5 (4)    Power 250.0    Fuel Use 11.18%    Signature 62.5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 747,000 Litres    Range 40 billion km (1113 days at full power)

Beagle GeoProbe (200)    Speed: 200 km/s    End: 26.4d     Range: 455.4m km    WH: 0    Size: 1.00    TH: 0/0/0
Ordnance Transfer Rate: 40 MSP per hour     Complete Transfer 5 hours

Active Search Sensor AS17-R500 (1)     GPS 1500     Range 17.3m km    Resolution 500
Active Search Sensor AS2-R1 (1)     GPS 3     Range 2.2m km    MCR 196.7k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km
EM Sensor EM0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

[Seolferwulf]

I guess I'll throw in my survey carrier designs aswell.

geo. survey

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Talona III class Survey Craft      500 tons       17 Crew       181,9 BP       TCS 10    TH 15    EM 0
1501 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 5      Sensors 0/0/0/2      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 13,59 Years     MSP 170    AFR 3%    IFR 0,0%    1YR 2    5YR 26    Max Repair 150 MSP
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Survey Craft Drive III (2)    Power 15,0    Fuel Use 35,27%    Signature 7,5    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 54.000 Litres    Range 55,2 billion km (425 days at full power)

Improved Geological Sensors (1)   2 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

grav. survey

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Tarterus III class Survey Craft      500 tons       17 Crew       181,9 BP       TCS 10    TH 15    EM 0
1501 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 5      Sensors 0/0/2/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 13,59 Years     MSP 170    AFR 3%    IFR 0,0%    1YR 2    5YR 26    Max Repair 150 MSP
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Survey Craft Drive III (2)    Power 15,0    Fuel Use 35,27%    Signature 7,5    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 54.000 Litres    Range 55,2 billion km (425 days at full power)

Improved Gravitational Sensors (1)   2 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

survey carrier

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Velsharoon II class Survey Carrier      29.990 tons       991 Crew       3.953 BP       TCS 600    TH 144    EM 0
1000 km/s      Armour 1-85       Shields 0-0       HTK 338      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 173      PPV 0
Maint Life 35,17 Years     MSP 14.260    AFR 42%    IFR 0,6%    1YR 22    5YR 336    Max Repair 180 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 4.000 tons     
Demon    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 240 months    Flight Crew Berths 80    Morale Check Required   

Survey Carrier Drive II (2)    Power 600    Fuel Use 6,24%    Signature 72,00    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 5.000.000 Litres    Range 481,1 billion km (5568 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

For my survey fleet I use two Velsharoon, with eight Talona or eight Tarterus each.
Since deep space also has its dangers they're escorted by escort carriers with fighters for scouting and actual combat and also to provide jump drives, since the second generation of the Velsharoon doesn't have it anymore.

fighter for larger targets

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Beshaba II class Fighter-Bomber      470 tons       6 Crew       70,9 BP       TCS 9    TH 48    EM 0
5108 km/s      Armour 2-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 2      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3,2
Maint Life 3,49 Years     MSP 9    AFR 18%    IFR 0,2%    1YR 1    5YR 17    Max Repair 19,6 MSP
Magazine 32   
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Fighter-Bomber Drive II (2)    Power 48    Fuel Use 176,36%    Signature 24    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 6.000 Litres    Range 1,3 billion km (70 hours at full power)

Size 8,00 Box Launcher (4)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Fighter-Bomber MFC II (1)     Range 109,3m km    Resolution 200
ASM Baphomet III (4)    Speed: 40.275 km/s    End: 43,7m     Range: 105,6m km    WH: 9    Size: 8    TH: 161/96/48

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

fighter for PD and smaller targets

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Incubus class Fighter-Interceptor      500 tons       28 Crew       107,6 BP       TCS 10    TH 70    EM 0
7045 km/s      Armour 2-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 5      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 2,65 Years     MSP 13    AFR 20%    IFR 0,3%    1YR 3    5YR 39    Max Repair 22,4 MSP
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Fighter-Interceptor Drive (2)    Power 70,4    Fuel Use 908,06%    Signature 35,2    Explosion 22%
Fuel Capacity 50.000 Litres    Range 2 billion km (3 days at full power)

Fighter-Interceptor Meson Cannon (1)    Range 60.000km     TS: 7.045 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 60.000 km    ROF 5       
Fighter-Interceptor BFC (1)     Max Range: 64.000 km   TS: 7.000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Fighter-Interceptor Power Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 20%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

scout with thermal sensor

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Loki II class Surveillance Craft      498 tons       15 Crew       111,6 BP       TCS 10    TH 5    EM 0
2008 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 84/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 1,30 Years     MSP 14    AFR 20%    IFR 0,3%    1YR 9    5YR 130    Max Repair 84 MSP
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Surveillance Craft Drive II (2)    Power 20    Fuel Use 90,51%    Signature 2,40    Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 50.000 Litres    Range 20 billion km (115 days at full power)

Surveillance Craft Thermal Sensor II (1)     Sensitivity 84     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  72,5m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

scout with EM sensor

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Loviatar II class Surveillance Craft      498 tons       15 Crew       111,6 BP       TCS 10    TH 5    EM 0
2008 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 0/84/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 1,30 Years     MSP 14    AFR 20%    IFR 0,3%    1YR 9    5YR 130    Max Repair 84 MSP
Fiend    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Surveillance Craft Drive II (2)    Power 20    Fuel Use 90,51%    Signature 2,40    Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 50.000 Litres    Range 20 billion km (115 days at full power)

Surveillance Craft EM Sensor II (1)     Sensitivity 84     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  72,5m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction

carrier with some PD

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Mephistopheles class Escort Carrier      29.999 tons       737 Crew       5.144,1 BP       TCS 600    TH 144    EM 0
1000 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 5-86       Shields 0-0       HTK 202      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 58      PPV 18,92
Maint Life 7,03 Years     MSP 6.242    AFR 124%    IFR 1,7%    1YR 221    5YR 3.316    Max Repair 720 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 4.000 tons     Magazine 1.080   
Demon    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 84 months    Flight Crew Berths 80    Morale Check Required   

Escort Carrier Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 30000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Escort Carrier Drive (2)    Power 600    Fuel Use 5,58%    Signature 72,00    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 3.000.000 Litres    Range 322,7 billion km (3735 days at full power)

Twin Point Defence Meson Cannon Turret (2x2)    Range 15.000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 6-10     RM 15.000 km    ROF 5       
Point Defence BFC (2)     Max Range: 20.000 km   TS: 8.000 km/s     50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Point Defence Power Plant (4)     Total Power Output 49,6    Exp 5%

Escort Carrier Anti-Fighter ASS (1)     GPS 7200     Range 122m km    Resolution 10
Escort Carrier Anti-Ship ASS (1)     GPS 144000     Range 331,3m km    Resolution 200
Escort Carrier Anti-Missile ASS (1)     GPS 36     Range 12,7m km    MCR 1,1m km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The afore mentioned fleet also includes two Mephistopheles, one of which carries eight Beshaba (Fighter-Bomber) while the other carries six Incubus (Fighter-Interceptor), one Loki, and one Loviatar  (scouts).
I always send the scouts in before the rest of the fleet jumps to the new system to avoid nasty surprises.
I don't have much confidence in my military vessels, though, since  they aren't battle tested yet.

[liveware]

Since we've diverged into the vagarites of sensor ship design, I'll leave this here as an interesting alternative to previously posted suggestions.

Note: Blue Team currently has a tech advantage as they have most recently received some love from the SM gods whilst Red Team has not. Arguably Red Team is due for some divine intervention...