Posted by: Rince Wind
« on: October 24, 2023, 04:29:07 AM »Easiest way to see it is to design the laser, then lower the capacitator to see if it changes the ROF. If it doesn't stick with the lower capacitor rating.
Posted by: jscott991
« on: October 21, 2023, 07:47:26 PM »I don't quite understand you, but what I do understand makes me think I'm putting WAY too many power plants on my beam ships.
Feel free to specify what is confusing for you, I'm sure we can clear it up!
I now know how to calculate power needs accurately (it's the second number on the lasers, not the first), but I'm still trying to figure out when it makes sense to go down to a worse capacitor.
At least I was. Andrew has explained it above in a way I get now.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: October 21, 2023, 05:25:34 PM »31.250cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser (1) Range 384,000km TS: 6,667 km/s Power 26-5 RM 60,000 km ROF 30
This laser needs 26 power to fire. Your capacitors feed it 5 power per 5 seconds so it takes 30 seconds to fire, a 4.5 capacitor would also take 30 seconds to charge it and your reactor could generate .5 power less per turn
Twin 15.0cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x2) Range 360,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 60,000 km ROF 10
Each of the lasers in this turret needs 6 power to charge, each of them has a capacitor feeding 5 power per 5 second turn, you would get the same rate of fire with a rating 3 capacitor meaning you could have 3 less power generated from your reactor for each laser if you gave them a capacitor of 3 and still have the same rate of fire.
Essentially if your capacitors use more power than the laser needs that power is wasted. So for the spinal laser it is nor important but you are using 167% of the power needed for each 15 cm laser. While reactors are not that big using an oversized capacitor also increases the cost of the laser , so ideally you should have a capacitor rating either equal to the power demand of the laser for a ROF of 5 , or half for rof 10 or a third for rof 15 etc.
This laser needs 26 power to fire. Your capacitors feed it 5 power per 5 seconds so it takes 30 seconds to fire, a 4.5 capacitor would also take 30 seconds to charge it and your reactor could generate .5 power less per turn
Twin 15.0cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x2) Range 360,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 60,000 km ROF 10
Each of the lasers in this turret needs 6 power to charge, each of them has a capacitor feeding 5 power per 5 second turn, you would get the same rate of fire with a rating 3 capacitor meaning you could have 3 less power generated from your reactor for each laser if you gave them a capacitor of 3 and still have the same rate of fire.
Essentially if your capacitors use more power than the laser needs that power is wasted. So for the spinal laser it is nor important but you are using 167% of the power needed for each 15 cm laser. While reactors are not that big using an oversized capacitor also increases the cost of the laser , so ideally you should have a capacitor rating either equal to the power demand of the laser for a ROF of 5 , or half for rof 10 or a third for rof 15 etc.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 21, 2023, 05:09:17 PM »I don't quite understand you, but what I do understand makes me think I'm putting WAY too many power plants on my beam ships.
Feel free to specify what is confusing for you, I'm sure we can clear it up!
Posted by: Snoman314
« on: October 21, 2023, 03:34:33 PM »I don't quite understand you, but what I do understand makes me think I'm putting WAY too many power plants on my beam ships.
When in doubt, remove all the power plants, and look at the message in the bottom right of the build screen, then add power plants back one at a time, and see the numbers change.
But also yeah, you have a lot of wasted capacitor capacity on those lasers.
Posted by: jscott991
« on: October 21, 2023, 02:56:41 PM »I don't quite understand you, but what I do understand makes me think I'm putting WAY too many power plants on my beam ships.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 21, 2023, 02:34:35 PM »To read the power correctly, the first number is the total power needed to fire, while the second is the power accepted by the capacitors per 5-second increment.
So:
The AK-20 Battery requires 12 power to fire and can charge up 4 power per (5-second) increment, thus it can fire every three increments or every 15 seconds (ROF 15). Since there are four AK-20s, the total power draw is 16 per increment.
The AK-10 Battery requires 3 power to fire and can charge up to 3 power per increment, thus it can fire on ever increment or every 5 seconds (ROF 5). Since there are six AK-10s, the total power draw is 18 per increment.
Adding 16 + 18 gives a total power draw of 34 per increment. The actual reactor has 34.5 which is actually a bit over the requirement, which is a typical outcome since reactor power cannot be set exactly (it scales as Size^(3/2), I think).
In your example:
You should be able to work out the following:
So:
Quote
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Astaroth Kinetics AK-10 Light Weapon Battery (6x4) Range 40,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 5
The AK-20 Battery requires 12 power to fire and can charge up 4 power per (5-second) increment, thus it can fire every three increments or every 15 seconds (ROF 15). Since there are four AK-20s, the total power draw is 16 per increment.
The AK-10 Battery requires 3 power to fire and can charge up to 3 power per increment, thus it can fire on ever increment or every 5 seconds (ROF 5). Since there are six AK-10s, the total power draw is 18 per increment.
Adding 16 + 18 gives a total power draw of 34 per increment. The actual reactor has 34.5 which is actually a bit over the requirement, which is a typical outcome since reactor power cannot be set exactly (it scales as Size^(3/2), I think).
In your example:
Quote
31.250cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser (1) Range 384,000km TS: 6,667 km/s Power 26-5 RM 60,000 km ROF 30
Twin 15.0cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x2) Range 360,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 60,000 km ROF 10
You should be able to work out the following:
- The total power draw per increment is 25.
- If you examine this closely you will see that both lasers draw more power per increment than necessary. This is important, since a lower capacitor rating results in a cheaper weapon. HINT: look at the total power required to fire, then look at the ROF, then look at the power drawn per increment. Can you achieve the same ROF with a lower capacitor level?
Posted by: jscott991
« on: October 21, 2023, 01:16:42 PM »That is an excellent post Steve, thank you so much. I primarily play this game as a roleplaying escape, not so much as a wargame. I just don't want to be designing ships that are totally terrible in case I ever do run into that one NPR I create midgame and hope I never see.
I do have one question and this might be because I am misunderstanding how to tell how much power my lasers need.
For this ship:
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Astaroth Kinetics AK-10 Light Weapon Battery (6x4) Range 40,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 5
MK I Light Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
MK I Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-17 Gaseous Fission Reactor (2) Total Power Output 34.5 Exp 5%
How much power does it need for those lasers? I'm not exactly sure what kind of weapons you are using (does it have 10 quad turrets), but it doesn't seem that 34.5 total power is enough.
For this frigate of mine:
31.250cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser (1) Range 384,000km TS: 6,667 km/s Power 26-5 RM 60,000 km ROF 30
Twin 15.0cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x2) Range 360,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 60,000 km ROF 10
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (1) Max Range: 384,000 km TS: 10,000 km/s 97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
PD Beam Fire Control R96-TS20000 (1) Max Range: 96,000 km TS: 20,000 km/s 90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor R10 (5) Total Power Output 50 Exp 5%
I get that I need 26 + 12 + 12 in power, or 50 total. Is that correct?
Is there an easy place to see the power requirements of a ship without adding it in my head?
I do have one question and this might be because I am misunderstanding how to tell how much power my lasers need.
For this ship:
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Astaroth Kinetics AK-10 Light Weapon Battery (6x4) Range 40,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 5
MK I Light Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
MK I Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-17 Gaseous Fission Reactor (2) Total Power Output 34.5 Exp 5%
How much power does it need for those lasers? I'm not exactly sure what kind of weapons you are using (does it have 10 quad turrets), but it doesn't seem that 34.5 total power is enough.
For this frigate of mine:
31.250cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser (1) Range 384,000km TS: 6,667 km/s Power 26-5 RM 60,000 km ROF 30
Twin 15.0cm C5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x2) Range 360,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 60,000 km ROF 10
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (1) Max Range: 384,000 km TS: 10,000 km/s 97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
PD Beam Fire Control R96-TS20000 (1) Max Range: 96,000 km TS: 20,000 km/s 90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor R10 (5) Total Power Output 50 Exp 5%
I get that I need 26 + 12 + 12 in power, or 50 total. Is that correct?
Is there an easy place to see the power requirements of a ship without adding it in my head?
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 21, 2023, 10:25:00 AM »That is sort of what I do in everyone of my games too, except I don't really have any specific theme in mind and just go with the flow most of the time and ships are build due to necessity and what the perceived threat is.
If I don't feel there is a threat I would just role play it that way and not even build much of any combat ships at all other than some patrol ships, might even skimp on military technology too for some time. That generally means that early combat ships usually are very simple and straight forward and fleets really don't have much complexity at all.
I don't see it as wrong to build up a fleet because you as a player know there might be dangerous threat in the next system, that is up to every one to decide how they like to play. Me personally I don't turtle in Sol for a long time but rather send out my explorer to explore as much and as fast as they can if I feel that is what my civilisation would do because they can. That usually leave very little time to even build a decent fleet even if I wanted to, having unprepared outer colonies or mining sites exposed can actually be quite interesting from a role play perspective.
When I say that I tend to jump from smaller to rather big ships in my campaigns that is more of a dynamic thing than a specific principle. I also build ships in the range of 5-15k as well but in most circumstances that range seem to never be realised very much due to many different reasons.
What I generally try to avoid though is to have different classes of ships just to have them, unless it is a natural progression type thing. There is no point in having a 9000t frigate that do XYZ if I also have a 18kt destroyer doing the exact same thing, unless it is a technological or temporal progression. The larger ships are generally just the better option in almost all cases. Every platform need to fill a specific purpose when it is designed, though that purpose might not be valid ten or twenty years later and I will have to decide if I should keep updating it or replacing it with another ship class.
Ship size for example tend to be a development of engine size. I rarely find that yard space for ships to be the deciding factor, it is very easy to build really huge shipyards if you want them. The question is if you can leverage that ship with the technology you have available and if your needs are that great. But if you always group your 9kt destroyers in squadrons of five you probably could look at just deploy a single ship of 40kt instead. A 40kt ships can generally be modified using the same yard to fulfil multiple roles in different ways too, so if you need more or less PD you can usually do that and still produce the same ship in different configurations in the same yard. The main benefit with a 9kt ship is that you can build them faster, but long time build speed is rarely in my experience an issue, that is only an issue short term. Smaller ships also emit less thermal, so that is also a concern to consider, that means that tactically a group of smaller ship can enjoy faster speed for the same thermal detection range.
But this is why, in my campaigns, I tend to operate bigger rather than smaller capital ships but then also have smaller support ships for very specialized tasks and why I generally have a large gap from about 3kt to about 20-30kt ships in general. I pretty much start all my campaigns at conventional start too, I don't even remember when I started a campaign in any other way.
If I don't feel there is a threat I would just role play it that way and not even build much of any combat ships at all other than some patrol ships, might even skimp on military technology too for some time. That generally means that early combat ships usually are very simple and straight forward and fleets really don't have much complexity at all.
I don't see it as wrong to build up a fleet because you as a player know there might be dangerous threat in the next system, that is up to every one to decide how they like to play. Me personally I don't turtle in Sol for a long time but rather send out my explorer to explore as much and as fast as they can if I feel that is what my civilisation would do because they can. That usually leave very little time to even build a decent fleet even if I wanted to, having unprepared outer colonies or mining sites exposed can actually be quite interesting from a role play perspective.
When I say that I tend to jump from smaller to rather big ships in my campaigns that is more of a dynamic thing than a specific principle. I also build ships in the range of 5-15k as well but in most circumstances that range seem to never be realised very much due to many different reasons.
What I generally try to avoid though is to have different classes of ships just to have them, unless it is a natural progression type thing. There is no point in having a 9000t frigate that do XYZ if I also have a 18kt destroyer doing the exact same thing, unless it is a technological or temporal progression. The larger ships are generally just the better option in almost all cases. Every platform need to fill a specific purpose when it is designed, though that purpose might not be valid ten or twenty years later and I will have to decide if I should keep updating it or replacing it with another ship class.
Ship size for example tend to be a development of engine size. I rarely find that yard space for ships to be the deciding factor, it is very easy to build really huge shipyards if you want them. The question is if you can leverage that ship with the technology you have available and if your needs are that great. But if you always group your 9kt destroyers in squadrons of five you probably could look at just deploy a single ship of 40kt instead. A 40kt ships can generally be modified using the same yard to fulfil multiple roles in different ways too, so if you need more or less PD you can usually do that and still produce the same ship in different configurations in the same yard. The main benefit with a 9kt ship is that you can build them faster, but long time build speed is rarely in my experience an issue, that is only an issue short term. Smaller ships also emit less thermal, so that is also a concern to consider, that means that tactically a group of smaller ship can enjoy faster speed for the same thermal detection range.
But this is why, in my campaigns, I tend to operate bigger rather than smaller capital ships but then also have smaller support ships for very specialized tasks and why I generally have a large gap from about 3kt to about 20-30kt ships in general. I pretty much start all my campaigns at conventional start too, I don't even remember when I started a campaign in any other way.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 21, 2023, 06:09:48 AM »Having come to this game from Starfire (and David Weber novels), it is weird to me to not mount Point Defense of some kind on most ship classes, but I can certainly take advice and go in a different direction. Gauss turrets are huge.
I was hoping medium sized laser turrets could double as antiship and antimissile weapons in sufficient numbers but I can ditch them in favor of just straight lasers for anti-ship purposes and Gauss-equipped PD ships.
Aurora is usually viewed as a space combat 4x game. However, it is also very much a role-playing and story-telling game. Therefore, if you believe that every ship should have at least some point defence, then design them that way. I tend to run campaigns around a theme, such as WH40k or Battlestar Galactica, etc. and then design ships to match the theme. Once the game gets underway, designs evolve based on need and combat experience in that particular game. You will get some excellent advice on these forums about how to avoid common mistakes on ship design and the many factors that need to be considered as a factor in design and how those factors should be weighted in different situations. However my advice is not to get too hung up on 'optimal' designs. Just build what feels right for your vision of your Empire and experience will drive future designs.
For example, here is a Lunar class cruiser from my current campaign. It has two types of offensive energy weapons, a battery of point defence weapons, six missile tubes and a hangar bay. It is definitely not an 'optimal' design, although at 37,500 tons it can get away with it. It is also not intended for solo operations and would function as part of a fleet. Below that is a much smaller frigate, with both offensive and defensive energy weapons.
Lunar class Cruiser 37,500 tons 1,120 Crew 5,623.2 BP TCS 750 TH 3,000 EM 5,520
4000 km/s Armour 6-99 Shields 184-368 HTK 220 Sensors 18/24/0/0 DCR 18-4 PPV 187.2
Maint Life 2.03 Years MSP 3,191 AFR 625% IFR 8.7% 1YR 1,034 5YR 15,512 Max Repair 375 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 1,000 tons Magazine 650 / 0
Captain Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Flight Crew Berths 20 Morale Check Required
Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-750B Gas-Core Drive (4) Power 3000 Fuel Use 49.92% Signature 750 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,603,000 Litres Range 15.4 billion km (44 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield (4) Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.5 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (12x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Valentinian-Ventris V4-200 Lance Battery (4) Range 200,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 10-3.5 ROF 15
Astaroth Kinetics AK-10 Light Weapon Battery (12x4) Range 40,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 5
MK I Energy Weapon Fire Control (4) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
MK I Light Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
R-24B Gaseous Fission Reactor (4) Total Power Output 98.1 Exp 5%
MK I Standard Torpedo Launcher (6) Missile Size: 12 Rate of Fire 175
MK I Small Target Fire Control (1) Range 27.5m km Resolution 10
MK I Torpedo Fire Control (1) Range 89.1m km Resolution 120
MK I Standard Torpedo (54) Speed: 25,000 km/s End: 5.3m Range: 8m km WH: 12 Size: 12 TH: 83/50/25
MK I Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 16 Range 6.4m km MCR 574.5k km Resolution 1
MK I Cruiser Active Augur Array (1) GPS 15360 Range 89.1m km Resolution 120
MK I Large Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 18 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 33.5m km
MK I Large Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 24 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 38.7m km
Strike Group
1x Thunderhawk Assault Transport Speed: 9504 km/s Size: 19.99
Sword class Frigate 9,375 tons 306 Crew 1,521.3 BP TCS 187 TH 750 EM 1,380
4000 km/s Armour 4-39 Shields 46-368 HTK 65 Sensors 6/8/0/0 DCR 5-5 PPV 46
Maint Life 2.36 Years MSP 507 AFR 141% IFR 2.0% 1YR 125 5YR 1,870 Max Repair 187.5 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-375B Gas-Core Drive (2) Power 750 Fuel Use 70.60% Signature 375 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 650,000 Litres Range 17.7 billion km (51 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Astaroth Kinetics AK-10 Light Weapon Battery (6x4) Range 40,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 5
MK I Light Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
MK I Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s ECCM-0 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-17 Gaseous Fission Reactor (2) Total Power Output 34.5 Exp 5%
MK I Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 5760 Range 54.5m km Resolution 120
MK I Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 16 Range 6.4m km MCR 574.5k km Resolution 1
MK I Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
MK I Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
This design is from a recent BSG campaign. It is carrier-warship hybrid, which again is not intended as an optimal design. Generally carriers are built to stay out of combat and good advice would be to minimize defences and maximise hangar space. Alternatively, if you are building a warship for energy-range combat, then don't waste a lot of internal space on hangars. In this case, the design was to match the lore, so it had both fighters and railguns and actually proved to be very effective anyway. Although once again size helps a lot. Later versions actually increased close combat capability. Here is the campaign: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12909.0
Galactica class Battlestar 75,000 tons 1,465 Crew 9,093.3 BP TCS 1,500 TH 4,800 EM 0
3200 km/s Armour 8-158 Shields 0-0 HTK 372 Sensors 12/12/0/0 DCR 53 PPV 149.28
Maint Life 2.04 Years MSP 4,016 AFR 849% IFR 11.8% 1YR 1,290 5YR 19,356 Max Repair 300.00 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 24,000 tons
Commander Control Rating 3 BRG AUX ENG
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Flight Crew Berths 480 Morale Check Required
Zeus Drive Systems ZDS-600 Gas Core Drive (8) Power 4800.0 Fuel Use 32.66% Signature 600.00 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 3,269,000 Litres Range 24 billion km (86 days at full power)
Ares Kinetics AK-20 Railgun (12x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,000 km/s Power 12-3 RM 40,000 km ROF 20
Ares Kinetics G20-8 Gauss Cannon Turret (4x8) Range 20,000km TS: 16000 km/s RM 20,000 km ROF 5
Hyperion R256-S4 Beam Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,000 km/s
Hyperion R64-S16 Beam Fire Control (2) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 16,000 km/s
R-18 Gaseous Fission Reactor (2) Total Power Output 36.5 Exp 5%
Artemis-70 Active Sensor (1) GPS 12960 Range 70.8m km Resolution 120
Artemis-5M Missile Detection Sensor (1) GPS 12 Range 4.8m km MCR 430.9k km Resolution 1
Themis EM-12 Passive Sensor (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 27.4m km
Themis TH-12 Passive Sensor (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 27.4m km
Strike Group
4x Raptor-S Scout Speed: 3201 km/s Size: 19.99
2x Raptor-M Assault Transport Speed: 7003 km/s Size: 19.99
60x Viper MK I Fighter Speed: 8001 km/s Size: 6
In summary, I would design what feels right for the style of Empire you are building. If you want to replicate Honorverse-style ships, then go ahead. Its your game. This is not a criticism BTW of the excellent advice provided in this thread. I'm just stating a different option, which is to let role-playing drive your choices. Over time, combat experience will inform your future design choices.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 21, 2023, 05:22:36 AM »Well... I did not exactly say you don't need a fleet... the point being that small ships with low range is far quicker and easier to build in masse and is perfectly fine for defending until you can get a larger fleet that is more offensive. Large ships is mainly needed when you want to take the fight to the enemy. Until you meet someone all you need is smaller ships in modest numbers and some component lying around so you quickly can assemble more if you really need them fast.
So... I did not mean you should not have a fleet. Just one tailored for defending your territory thus smaller ships are the better more efficient option. I simply meant there is no real need for a big space superiority navy before you meet someone, that is quite expensive. That does not mean you can't prepare for it when you need it.
It takes allot of efforts both in terms of research and resources to build proper offensive forces, not to mention ground invasion fleets to support them.
I guess it depends how you define "large" and "small". To me, "small" ships are FACs or corvette sizes in the ~3,000 ton range, which are too small to be proper warships IMO... they are too easily blown up by a few shots and are not efficient enough to have even the fairly short range needed for a starter fleet without significant sacrifices elsewhere, among other issues. Anything else I usually consider "large" in the sense of not-small, so 10,000 or 15,000 tons which I think is reasonable for a starting force of DEs and CLs for instance. Of course these are general-purpose ships with ample passive and active defenses, not offensive juggernauts.
I will say there is also some metagaming which is possible in that a player can design their early fleet to combat spoiler races if they are not too concerned about roleplay.
Yes, ships in the size of FAC and up to about 3000t are pretty effective in the early stage when you only defend territory, larger ships are not really necessary. When you have limited research labs and you want to limit research and construction potential that is better, while you build up at least one shipyard to build bigger ships eventually. It is much faster to build smaller rather than larger ships in quantity when you need them and you don't need complicated fleets to defend territory, neither do you need range in excess of what you need to operate in a single system. You just need tankers or fuel stations to ferry them around stationed in strategic places.
While you are expanding and researching basic technologies you will not have access to the tools to really leverage larger ship hulls anyway, it is generally getter to be able to operate under enemy general sensor resolutions as much as possible. A 2500t corvette can have some railguns for PD, a small hangar of 50-100t for a sensor scout and enough for a pretty decent missile load out. FAC don't really need PD at all. If you go beam only that will probably not work well early on no matter how you do it as you don't have neither speed nor gun range advantage over any potential enemy. Another good thing early on is that you get to train up your commanders in more ships rather than less. Pure defensive ships also don't need much more than about 3 months of deployment time and maintenance of maybe 6-12 months at most if even that. You can have small sensor scouts with longer deployment times though.
Once I'm in need for "deep space" combat operations I generally will have a few yards with at least 20k+ size available but I see no real reason to build bigger ships if I don't have the technology to make them meaningful. In some cases they just become auxiliary carriers for FAC until my technology matured for proper warships.
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: October 21, 2023, 01:13:48 AM »Just out of curiosity, why does the tonnage need to be a round number? What's the advantage? And isn't that kind of annoying to achieve (it must take a lot of trial and error to find the components that end in a zero).
Once you see the light, you too will join the Round Tonnage Lobby!
Yeah it is sometimes hard but I do like having all my ships be the same speed, which is much easier to get if you use round tonnages and the same engine to tonnage ratios for your whole fleet. Once you get a feel for designing things it's a little easier. It's mostly just a fun thing though, also I know I have seen at least one person who wanted a round number for fuel but did not care too much for the ship tonnage, so maybe we're just the odd ones for wanting round tonnage over round anything else lol.
I mean, what am I saying? Everybody knows that people who use round tonnage ships have fleets that are 50% stronger and are rated more handsome by all those hot singles who keep on sending people in their area messages. Make sure you round off those tonnages!
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 20, 2023, 08:14:41 PM »Well... I did not exactly say you don't need a fleet... the point being that small ships with low range is far quicker and easier to build in masse and is perfectly fine for defending until you can get a larger fleet that is more offensive. Large ships is mainly needed when you want to take the fight to the enemy. Until you meet someone all you need is smaller ships in modest numbers and some component lying around so you quickly can assemble more if you really need them fast.
So... I did not mean you should not have a fleet. Just one tailored for defending your territory thus smaller ships are the better more efficient option. I simply meant there is no real need for a big space superiority navy before you meet someone, that is quite expensive. That does not mean you can't prepare for it when you need it.
It takes allot of efforts both in terms of research and resources to build proper offensive forces, not to mention ground invasion fleets to support them.
I guess it depends how you define "large" and "small". To me, "small" ships are FACs or corvette sizes in the ~3,000 ton range, which are too small to be proper warships IMO... they are too easily blown up by a few shots and are not efficient enough to have even the fairly short range needed for a starter fleet without significant sacrifices elsewhere, among other issues. Anything else I usually consider "large" in the sense of not-small, so 10,000 or 15,000 tons which I think is reasonable for a starting force of DEs and CLs for instance. Of course these are general-purpose ships with ample passive and active defenses, not offensive juggernauts.
I will say there is also some metagaming which is possible in that a player can design their early fleet to combat spoiler races if they are not too concerned about roleplay.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 20, 2023, 08:02:47 PM »QuoteThere is usually not even a need for large combat ships unless you have a known enemy to combat. Once you have an enemy you need to build the ship around what you know about them.
This is the only part I really disagree with. Maybe this depends on your game settings, but under the conditions most players use which is playing against NPRs with more or less default settings, it is important to have a combat fleet of decent size and capability or else you may find yourself overrun by a hostile NPR before you can build a sufficient fleet, or at the least suffering significant losses in territory, population, installations, etc. if you have expanded beyond Sol very much. I can understand this for roleplay, many players like the idea of a race that doesn't build a navy until the first encounter with hostile aliens, but from the perspective of what is "best" in gameplay terms I think having a decent number of capable warships is essential. Note that typical NPR battlefleets will mass 200-300k tons, so a small garrison of a single cruiser or FAC squadron will not be enough to stop a determined NPR offensive unless you have some method to exploit the NPR, which I at least think is generally not a fun way to play the game.
That said, it's true that until you have good intelligence you can be fairly conservative or minimal with your designs. If I'm playing "optimally", I will usually start with a single main weapon type and possibly a secondary point defense weapon (Gauss or 10cm Railguns) and have a larger offensive ship with smaller PD-focused escort ships (plus jump-capable versions as necessary), and usually a third hull type which is a dedicated scouting/sensor platform. A decently large fleet of this composition will be enough to at least credibly oppose most NPRs one could encounter, and you can work more specialist ships or new weapon types into the fleet over time while the first generation is doing its job.
Of course if you play with multiple player races, then the rules can change, but since most players play against NPRs and the NPRs do not follow house rules, I think in general one should plan to build warships prior to contact unless roleplay dictates otherwise.
Well... I did not exactly say you don't need a fleet... the point being that small ships with low range is far quicker and easier to build in masse and is perfectly fine for defending until you can get a larger fleet that is more offensive. Large ships is mainly needed when you want to take the fight to the enemy. Until you meet someone all you need is smaller ships in modest numbers and some component lying around so you quickly can assemble more if you really need them fast.
So... I did not mean you should not have a fleet. Just one tailored for defending your territory thus smaller ships are the better more efficient option. I simply meant there is no real need for a big space superiority navy before you meet someone, that is quite expensive. That does not mean you can't prepare for it when you need it.
It takes allot of efforts both in terms of research and resources to build proper offensive forces, not to mention ground invasion fleets to support them.
Posted by: jscott991
« on: October 20, 2023, 04:02:42 PM »Having come to this game from Starfire (and David Weber novels), it is weird to me to not mount Point Defense of some kind on most ship classes, but I can certainly take advice and go in a different direction. Gauss turrets are huge.
I was hoping medium sized laser turrets could double as antiship and antimissile weapons in sufficient numbers but I can ditch them in favor of just straight lasers for anti-ship purposes and Gauss-equipped PD ships.
I was hoping medium sized laser turrets could double as antiship and antimissile weapons in sufficient numbers but I can ditch them in favor of just straight lasers for anti-ship purposes and Gauss-equipped PD ships.
