Snake Anti-ship missiles

[Steve Walmsley]

So I could in effect pull the sensors off the missle entirely, letting the fire control handle it?

Yes, in Aurora missiles don't usually have onboard sensors as they rely on shipboard fire control. There are two advantages to having sensors on your missiles though. A shipboard fire control cannot change the target of a missile in flight. Therefore if the target of the missile is destroyed before the missile arrives, the missile will self-destruct; unless it has onboard sensors in which case they will start searching for a new target, Also if a ship is destroyed, any missiles under guidance from its fire control systems will self-destruct; unless they have onboard sensors in which case they will start searching for a target.

The only time you actually need sensors on a missile is if it is a sub-munition in a captor mine. When a captor mine is activated, it will send its missiles to the location of the detected target but the missiles themselves have to locate that target.

Steve

[sloanjh]

Curious!  Well, I hope to install redesigned systems and start putting ships out with new missile and anti missile hardware sometime tonight.

This is actually the way that Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH) missiles such as Sparrow and most SAMs work.  Only recently (AMRAAM, maybe Phoenix, most ASMs such as Harpoon or Tomahawk) has active terminal guidance been put onto missiles.

John

PS - Ok, so maybe Harpoon isn't "recent" - I guess I'm dating myself

[Thiosk (OP)]

Ok here we go.

Heres what I'm looking at for my new antiship missile.  These are my very basic force ships, to say nothing of designed fleets.  I've got two nonhostile stars nearby with a total of 4 prime colony locations, so I just need something to keep the people happy and to put a few guns in the air.

First, the Resolve, Missile Corvette.  It seems to me I make my ships too heavy.  Is this too big? 

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Resolve class Corvette    6,050 tons     669 Crew     895 BP      TCS 121  TH 420  EM 60
3471 km/s     Armour 5-29     Shields 2-400     Sensors 12/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 42
Annual Failure Rate: 146%    IFR: 2%    Maint Capacity 185 MSP    Max Repair 58 MSP    Est Time: 1.59 Years
Magazine 96   

Ion Engine E8 (7)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 37.2 billion km   (124 days at full power)
Gamma R400/16 Shields (1)   Total Fuel Cost  16 Litres per day

Single 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 90,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 96-3000 (1)    Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 3000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 4 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 40
Missile Fire Control FC33-R20 (1)     Range 33.8m km    Resolution 20

Grav Sensor mk 1 (1)     GPS 2100     Range 12.6m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR30-R75 (1)     GPS 4332     Range 30.0m km    Resolution 75
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Here are my missiles.  Basic Antiship size 4 missile, low tech.

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Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 15000 km/s    Endurance: 31 minutes   Range: 28.1m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 330%   3k km/s 110%   5k km/s 66%   10k km/s 33%
Materials Required:    2.25x Tritanium   1.95x Gallicite   Fuel x1250

Development Cost for Project: 355RP

And finally, a really cheezy missile defence base I slapped together to silence the populace.

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Foxhole Missile Defense class Missile Defence Base    6,200 tons     824 Crew     955.4 BP      TCS 124  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 9-30     Sensors 12/58     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 74
Magazine 192   

Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range N/A
Single 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 48,000km     TS: 15000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

PDC Size 4 Missile Launcher (16)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC33-R20 (2)     Range 33.8m km    Resolution 20

Active Search Sensor MR30-R75 (1)     GPS 4332     Range 30.0m km    Resolution 75
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections


[Erik L]

I'd drop the fuel on the PDC, and increase the sensor range.

As for "too big" it all comes down to what you think is the proper size. For me, 6k tons is a destroyer. For certain others in Italy, 6k tons is a FAC

[sloanjh]

For me, 6k tons is a destroyer. For certain others in Italy, 6k tons is a FAC

ROFL!!!

Btw, has anyone heard from our Italian friend lately?

John

[welchbloke]

ROFL!!!

Btw, has anyone heard from our Italian friend lately?

John

His profile says he hasn't been to the forum since 19 Feb.  I guess he's engrossed with those 1Million tonne monsters he favours 

[Andrew]

Looking at the corvette
1) Why is the laser in a turret? the turret and Firecontrl both have lower tracking speeds than the ships speed so there is no advantage gained by the turret.
2) 2 points of shields are not going to do anything
3) you only have 3 salvos for each launcher ideally you want more
4) Your search sensors are very short ranged but that could be because they have low tech
5) The thermal sensor is sufficiently poor I would not fit it and instead have a bigger active sensor

[ZimRathbone]

Re the PDC:

Drop the lasers - they dont work in atmophere.

Dont bother with the passives - use a Deep Space Tracking station assigned to the colony

Your MFC is designed to target FACs (res 20) at 30mKm but your search sensor tracks smallish ships at that range - unless you have another search sensor on another unit, you wont see the FACs untill they're almost on top of you.

What I tend to do is have a number of different bases, all quite small, to provide overall capability eg:

1-3 of these

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Praetor class Planetary Surveillance Base    2,500 tons     154 Crew     1511.6 BP      TCS 50  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 17-16     Sensors 1/540     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 250 tons     

Fuel Capacity 60,000 Litres    Range N/A
ShipDet LG Mk2 594m (1)     GPS 54000     Range 594.0m km    Resolution 100
MissDet Large Mk2 8232k (1)     GPS 540     Range 75.6m km    Resolution 1

Strike Group
1x Courier Jump Scout   Speed: 20789 km/s    Size: 3.8

This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections
plus 3-6 of missile defenders

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Auxillia - A class Planetary Defence Centre    5,000 tons     480 Crew     1184.4 BP      TCS 100  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 8-26     Sensors 1/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 30
Magazine 782   

PDC Defensor Launcher (30)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
MissKill LG 8.2m (3)     Range 75.6m km    Resolution 1
Dart Mk2 SR AMM (791)  Speed: 53,200 km/s   End: 2.8m    Range: 9m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 744 / 446 / 223

ECCM-2 (3)         Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 2 sections

and then a dozen or so of these

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Legion - A class Planetary Defence Centre    5,000 tons     582 Crew     774.72 BP      TCS 100  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 6-26     Sensors 1/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 48
Magazine 768   

PDC Capital Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 75
ShipKill MD Mk2 198m (1)     Range 198.0m km    Resolution 100
Dominator Mk2 SHM (32)  Speed: 38,500 km/s   End: 78m    Range: 180.2m km   WH: 25    Size: 24    TH: 179 / 107 / 53

ECCM-2 (1)         Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 2 sections


[Thiosk (OP)]

Thank you so much for all the assistance in ship design.  Things like sensor ranges and missile ranges aren't immediatly clear

Sadly the empire crumbled, not because of military invasion or economic collapse, but because of some sort of stack overflow fault caused a break in the space time continuum.

I have now restarted, taking the title GOD EMPEROR OF MAN and the imperium is beginning to flourish under me.  I chose my own starting techs this time to get my terraforming and various economic factors up and running before embarking on military research.  I'll post some updated ship designs as I develop them!

[Thiosk (OP)]

OK I never actually needed any missiles, but as I get ready to truly push into the great beyond, I'll need something.

So its time to take the hurting to the precursors.  First, the AMM suite:  from early comments in this thread, chance to hit is key, and long-range is not necessarily important.  So here we go: 

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Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 32
Speed: 45000 km/s    Endurance: 1 minutes   Range: 3.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1440%   3k km/s 480%   5k km/s 288%   10k km/s 144%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   1.044x Gallicite   Fuel x25
Now lets talk antiship missiles.  Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient.  Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0.2 MSP).  Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.

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Missile Size: 6 MSP  (0.3 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0.2     Manoeuvre Rating: 17
Speed: 55000 km/s    Endurance: 15 minutes   Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 6.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 935%   3k km/s 306%   5k km/s 187%   10k km/s 93.5%
Materials Required:    1.05x Tritanium   6.37x Gallicite   Fuel x2500

Development Cost for Project: 672RPCheers
 

[Brian Neumann]

Now lets talk antiship missiles.  Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient.  Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0.2 MSP).  Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.
Cheers
 

The formula for determing if missile armour works is (damage/(damage+armour)  The percent chance that the damage carries through.  For .2 armour this translates as 1/1.2 or about 83% of the time a 1 point damage will carry through and destroy the missile.  So for this it is probably not worth it.  On a size six missile I would either put that .2 into missile ecm (a size 1 msp ecm will give you full value.  a .2msp would be 20% of full).  For example if you have reasearched missile ecm 2 then it will have a 4% reduction.  Higher ecm levels will obviously be better here.  A sensor would probably be more usefull.  If you want the missile to home in on anything then put in a thermal sensor.  If you would prefer it only home in on larger ships then put in a high res sensor (res 200) which will also give it a decent range.  Using tech that costs 8000rp to get I got a range of 420,000 km with res 200, and 210,000 km range with a res 100.  This is far enough for the missile to have decent terminal guidance.  If your fire control is destroyed it will still keep going.  If the first target is destroyed it will go after another target that it sees.

Brian

[LtWarhound]

So its time to take the hurting to the precursors.   First, the AMM suite:  from early comments in this thread, chance to hit is key, and long-range is not necessarily important.   So here we go: 

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Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 32
Speed: 45000 km/s    Endurance: 1 minutes   Range: 3.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1440%   3k km/s 480%   5k km/s 288%   10k km/s 144%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   1.044x Gallicite   Fuel x25

Looks solid.   The only thing I might mention is that hit is still the most important, but that speed is also important.   The faster the AMM, the sooner it reaches the target, giving you more time for followup salvos as needed.   Just something to consider for future missiles, 45k is fine.   3m range is fine.

Now lets talk antiship missiles.   Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient.   Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0. 2 MSP).   Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.

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Missile Size: 6 MSP  (0.3 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0.2     Manoeuvre Rating: 17
Speed: 55000 km/s    Endurance: 15 minutes   Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 6.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 935%   3k km/s 306%   5k km/s 187%   10k km/s 93.5%
Materials Required:    1.05x Tritanium   6.37x Gallicite   Fuel x2500

The thing I'd change is the speed.   Chop it to extend the range.   With 50mkm range, you are going to be pounded on by the advanced NPRs/Precursors.   I tried a missile like this, and the fleet had to advance through 40mkm underfire while unable to fight back.   Its a lot nicer when its the other way around.

My second generation design is a two stage size 5 missile designed to go 136mkm, then the two sprint mode submunitions separate, total damage 7.   The bus has lousy chances to hit (slow speed&long range), but the submunitions (high speed&short range) have no problems hitting.   Its almost funny, the submunitions tend to hammer the NPR to the point it slows down enough its an easy target for the bus.   Having three separate targets per launch tends to play hell with point defense.   Even the times when the NPR had two cruisers throwing out 162 AMM per salvo.

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The Bus:
Missile Size: 5 MSP  (0.25 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 18000 km/s    Endurance: 127 minutes   Range: 136.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.3282
Second Stage: g1 SBM S1 R1.3mkm W3 AS1.5mkm x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours   Overall Range: 138.1m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 180%   3k km/s 60%   5k km/s 36%   10k km/s 18%
Materials Required:    1.75x Tritanium   0.0316x Uridium   1.8166x Gallicite   Fuel x4750

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The Submunition:
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 3    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 18
Speed: 28000 km/s    Endurance: 1 minutes   Range: 1.8m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.0158    Resolution: 10    Maximum Range: 1,580 km     
Cost Per Missile: 1.4325
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 504%   3k km/s 162%   5k km/s 100.8%   10k km/s 50.4%
Materials Required:    0.75x Tritanium   0.0158x Uridium   0.4167x Gallicite   Fuel x12.5
These are the missile I've been using for too long, gonna be replacing them once I've finished researching the next level of drives.   They have been effective enough I haven't felt the need to upgrade them, but I've gotten advances in speed, warhead strength, sensors, armor, . . .  hell, in everything, at least one or two levels, so its time to do some redesigns.   Maybe I can stop relying on a fleet doctrine of "quantity has a quality all of its own".

Oh, and assume the NPRs have ECM, there is a reason the S5 missile goes 130+mkm and the FC used with it has a 200mkm res 100 lockon.