Author Topic: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities  (Read 16649 times)

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Offline bean

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2016, 09:24:10 AM »
I tend to keep old obsolete vessels around for a while, at least as many as I can afford.
It would be nice if I could reduce its maintenence requirement without needing to shove it into a hanger, more importantly I would love to be able to take the entire trained crew out of my old warship and put them into a brand new class, while I understand that the new crew needs to learn all the new systems that are different, there should be some advantage to recycling old seasoned officers rather than just getting them back as standard green crew of the appropriate raining level.
That was the intent of my crew pool rotation system, particularly the 'picked crew' option.  It's not a perfect match, but it does pretty much kill the 'my obsolete PDCs have really high crew bonuses, and my new battleship is crewed by greenhorns' problem.

Its because you add the cost of the refit of a 10 year old ship to the cost of reactivation or use an obsolete ship which will probably get chewed up fast. Refits in Aurora are expensive, especially when you change the engines. It may not be quite as expensive as a brand new ship, but won't be far short and probably not as good, but good enough (hopefully) for a jump point defence. I suggested mothballing  as the proposed changes may impact the number of ships you can keep fully maintained and in service during a protracted peace.
Note that I'm specifically talking about reactivation without doing refits.  I can't see bringing Bulwark up to full service standards in the Falklands.  Clean up the fire damage and make her seaworthy, but change as little as possible.

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My information on Hampshire is taken from "County Class Guided Missile Destroyers" by Neil McCart. He states categorically she was in reserve. The batch 1 Counties were not refitted to any great extent, didn't even get Seaslug Mk II.
Interesting.  I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure you can't take a big ship that's been in mothballs for four years and put her back in service in a month.  There's a lot of work involved in bringing a ship out of reserve.

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I would not have said gas turbines were new when put into the Invincibles, HMS Exmouth was refitted in 1966 with COGOG. The exhaust and intake trunking was also utilised to allow the removal of complete engines, giving a rapid 24-hour exchange time.
It's possible that taking the turbines out through the trunking is a standard feature.  In any case, I'm reasonably certain that nobody does it while underway.  Gas turbines are easy to change, but the reduction gears aren't.  (That's what killed the Spruances, actually.)

 
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Of course there will always be something you cannot do underway, and I don't have much of an idea about VLS, although I am surprised that you cannot replenish those while underway. It kind of limits your deployment in an active war zone.
Well, when you think about the mechanics of VLS, it's obvious why they don't UNREP them.  Dealing with getting missiles down the holes from above in any kind of seaway would be a nightmare.  The extra cells you get from eliminating the VLS loading crane are more than worth it.

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Yes, but 99% of my reference sources are RN. The rest are mostly Janes or WW2!   ;D
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Offline IanD

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2016, 11:52:35 AM »
That was the intent of my crew pool rotation system, particularly the 'picked crew' option.  It's not a perfect match, but it does pretty much kill the 'my obsolete PDCs have really high crew bonuses, and my new battleship is crewed by greenhorns' problem.
Perhaps every time a ship undergoes an overhaul it should be treated as a new commission and task force bonus reduced by 50%.

Note that I'm specifically talking about reactivation without doing refits.  I can't see bringing Bulwark up to full service standards in the Falklands.  Clean up the fire damage and make her seaworthy, but change as little as possible.
"During the early stages of the Falklands War it was announced that Bulwark would be reactivated and sent south to support the fleet, and then remain as a headquarters hulk at Port Stanley following the war. A rapid ship survey, however, determined that in addition to the unrepaired fire damage suffered in 1980, she had deteriorated too much for this to be practicable." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bulwark_(R08))

Interesting.  I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure you can't take a big ship that's been in mothballs for four years and put her back in service in a month.  There's a lot of work involved in bringing a ship out of reserve.
I guess it depends on whether its maintained or unmaintained reserve. A few more examples: HMS Dainty went into reserve 21st April 1953, virtually straight from the builders. on 27th January she was used in operation sleeping beauty which aimed to bring Dainty forward from dehumidification and remove all plastic shrouds, including those underwater in 28 days. Actually started sea trial 29th February, 32 days later. Finally taken out of reserve to refit in August 1956, recommissioned  4th December 1956. ("Daring Class Destroyers" by Neil McCart). HMS Fearless and HMS Intrepid were in commission alternately each commission lasting 2-3 years. In reserve they were shrouded and dehumidified but kept at 30 days notice for steam. The crew was reduced from 650 to 50 ("HMS Fearless & HMS Intrepid 1965-2002" by Neil McCart). All C class destroyers spent a number of years in reserve, PVC sprayed over external and underwater fittings and dehumidified inside. Maintenance parties routinely ran boilers and turned engines. ("C Class Destroyers" by David Hobbs). So to reflect this reduce maintenance to 10-15% per accounting period for maintained maintenance and be able to reactivate in 30 days and then unmaintained reserve which costs 10% to put in reserve, nothing to keep it in reserve but 250% and 10 months to reactivate or number of systems fail and require to be repaired.

It's possible that taking the turbines out through the trunking is a standard feature.  In any case, I'm reasonably certain that nobody does it while underway.  Gas turbines are easy to change, but the reduction gears aren't.  (That's what killed the Spruances, actually.)
But the Invincible did change a gearbox underway (see earlier post). However you need at least two shafts. I suspect it was cost not ability to change reduction gears that killed the Spruances. There are cases were they cut holes in the hull to replace machinery, but not cheap.

Well, when you think about the mechanics of VLS, it's obvious why they don't UNREP them.  Dealing with getting missiles down the holes from above in any kind of seaway would be a nightmare.  The extra cells you get from eliminating the VLS loading crane are more than worth it.
From a quick wiz round the internet it appears that the removal of the crane did not give any more cells. (https://www.dsiac.org/resources/dsiac_journal/fall-2014-volume-1-number-2/promising-future-us-navy-vertical-launching). It appears it is possible to  replenish VLS cells but the USN doesn't see the need. (http://www.defensetech.org/2010/06/10/vls-underway-replenishment-when-will-the-navy-get-serious/).
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Offline iceball3

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2016, 12:54:29 PM »
Perhaps every time a ship undergoes an overhaul it should be treated as a new commission and task force bonus reduced by 50%.
Wouldn't this make people just turn off features pertaining to task force firing delay and whatnot? You'd think task force training would be an insane pain in the rear in that, in the time you've trained your task force to 100%, most ships would already need an overhaul. Essentially making it almost impossible to have a ship, that you actually wish use and deploy, actually respond to orders in a timely manner, when every overhaul undoes many months of training, and every few months of training pretty much undoes all that overhauling you've been doing.
I figure that if what you meant was Crew Grade Bonus, it would still be just about as bad, honestly. Less obvious penalties, but don't expect your crew grades to ever become anything spectacular if just using the ship is going to wind it back (due to overhaul being necessary).
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2016, 01:55:36 PM »
I haven't read all the thread yet but with regard to the idea of reserve or mothballed ships, one option could be to remove overhaul as a task and instead have different 'maintenance states' for ships (set by orders).

Assuming my suggestion for maintenance capacity is in force...

1) No Maintenance: Doesn't count against maintenance capacity and clock advances normally (even if in the same location as MF). No restriction on movement.
2) Normal Maintenance: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock doesn't advance. Normal maintenance costs. No restriction on movement.
3) Docked: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at slow speed (perhaps 1-2x speed). Small increase in maintenance costs. A time penalty before movement - perhaps a few hours.
4) Dry Dock. Effectively same as overhaul. When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at fast speed. Maintenance costs as per current overhaul. Time penalty of perhaps 1-2 weeks before movement.
5) Reserve. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 25% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/4 normal. Time penalty of 2 months before movement.
6) Mothballed. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 10% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/10th normal. Time penalty of maybe 6 months before movement.

A task group containing ships with status of anything but 1 + 2 would not be able to move unless those ships were detached. These are just rough estimates to give a flavour of the idea, rather than set in stone. Interested in comments on the principle.
 
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Iranon

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2016, 02:12:37 PM »
@ iceball3: Or, if we keep it on, disposable ships.
Several years of maintenance life, never overhaul (with time in orbit/hangars not counting, the expected ship life is going to be several times that).

With this kind of change, we really should ask ourselves "what would this encourage?", and if the answer is "play around the entire system" the change is a little suspect. Note: it's fine if "playing around the system" is possible, but doing things as intended should be a credible option that's not blatantly suboptimal.

@ Steve Walmsley: Sounds good in principle, but probably requires a change to (military) hangars to be worthwhile if you want to limit maintenance facilities in the total capacity they can serve.
Currently, mothballing means shoving it into a hangar, which allows you to forget about the ship until you have need for it with no drawbacks.
And trying to nerf hangars for the purpose of mothballing would probably restrict many cool and legitimate ways of fielding a carrier-based navy...
 

Offline TCD

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2016, 02:35:46 PM »
@ Steve Walmsley: Sounds good in principle, but probably requires a change to (military) hangars to be worthwhile if you want to limit maintenance facilities in the total capacity they can serve.
Currently, mothballing means shoving it into a hangar, which allows you to forget about the ship until you have need for it with no drawbacks.
And trying to nerf hangars for the purpose of mothballing would probably restrict many cool and legitimate ways of fielding a carrier-based navy...
Why not just turn on maintenance costs for ships in hangars? With the move to MSP that will be much simpler to manage, and will nerf mothball hangars without affecting carrier fleets.

If ships in hangars exploding from maintenance failures were treated as internal explosions in the mothership, that could also lead to some very interesting and difficult decisions on long deployments- "Captain, we're running very low on MSP. I project a 3% chance each month that one of the fighter will explode and take us down as well. Shall we mothball the fighters?" 
 

Offline sublight

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2016, 02:42:44 PM »
I'm thinking this is a good idea taken to far. I would suggest simplifying the list down to just Maintenance: None/Docked/Reserve.

1) None -  As stated.
2) Docked - Required for shore leave. Normal maintenance/slow rewind as suggested if MF present. The small delay is the time required to recall the crew.
3) Reserve - As stated.

'Dry Dock' could become whatever ends up happening with hanger repair, and 'Mothballed' could be handwaved away as scrapping a ship for components and then rebuilding from components if/when necessary.
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2016, 03:44:42 PM »
Wouldn't this make people just turn off features pertaining to task force firing delay and whatnot? You'd think task force training would be an insane pain in the rear in that, in the time you've trained your task force to 100%, most ships would already need an overhaul. Essentially making it almost impossible to have a ship, that you actually wish use and deploy, actually respond to orders in a timely manner, when every overhaul undoes many months of training, and every few months of training pretty much undoes all that overhauling you've been doing.
I figure that if what you meant was Crew Grade Bonus, it would still be just about as bad, honestly. Less obvious penalties, but don't expect your crew grades to ever become anything spectacular if just using the ship is going to wind it back (due to overhaul being necessary).
I actually meant Task Force bonus. I think this must reflect crew training.  The trouble is that Aurora appears to treat crews like they were in the late 18th to early 19th century, never allowed ashore in case they desert. A solution would be for a ship to work up to 75% to be very much quicker say ~3 months and the rest gained over the next 6-9 months while in service. While a commission would be from 3 to 5 years. Then when the ship ends one commission the task force bonus is reset to a lower level (25%?) perhaps depending on quality of available crew. However, this requires you to track number of available crew and the quality and quantity available. When a wet navy warship recommissions (often, but not always after a refit) there is a reason she undergoes a work up to operational efficiency over several weeks, this does not necessarily mean it is at peak efficiency. In Aurora my experience is it takes a year or more to get 100% task force bonus, which seems far too long.
There could be a way to set a ships commission  length as you would set your officers tour length or have it equal the officers tour length. But the ship would have to be at a naval base to recommission. However, there may not be a way to fix this.


 
Assuming my suggestion for maintenance capacity is in force...

1) No Maintenance: Doesn't count against maintenance capacity and clock advances normally (even if in the same location as MF). No restriction on movement.
2) Normal Maintenance: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock doesn't advance. Normal maintenance costs. No restriction on movement.
3) Docked: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at slow speed (perhaps 1-2x speed). Small increase in maintenance costs. A time penalty before movement - perhaps a few hours.
4) Dry Dock. Effectively same as overhaul. When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at fast speed. Maintenance costs as per current overhaul. Time penalty of perhaps 1-2 weeks before movement.
5) Reserve. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 25% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/4 normal. Time penalty of 2 months before movement.
6) Mothballed. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 10% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/10th normal. Time penalty of maybe 6 months before movement.

A task group containing ships with status of anything but 1 + 2 would not be able to move unless those ships were detached. These are just rough estimates to give a flavour of the idea, rather than set in stone. Interested in comments on the principle.
I quite like this but would rename (3) to be Assisted Maintenance, this could also be provided by maintenance/depot ships to which you wouldn't necessarily need to be docked to.
(4) Then becomes Docked unless you are suggesting that you pressurise the dock for some advantage. But otherwise I like this.
(5) and (6)  I guess only time would tell whether players would use both or prefer one over the other. It covers the realistic options.

Overall I like these options. But I still want a naval base!   ;D

Ian

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Offline bean

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2016, 01:11:36 PM »
Perhaps every time a ship undergoes an overhaul it should be treated as a new commission and task force bonus reduced by 50%.
The idosyncratic British version of 'commission' is not shared by the USN.  I can't speak for other navies.  I would be in favor of making TF bonus easier to get, and having it decay if the ship sits in port too long.

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"During the early stages of the Falklands War it was announced that Bulwark would be reactivated and sent south to support the fleet, and then remain as a headquarters hulk at Port Stanley following the war. A rapid ship survey, however, determined that in addition to the unrepaired fire damage suffered in 1980, she had deteriorated too much for this to be practicable." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bulwark_(R08))
Yes.  That doesn't mean they were going to bring her up to full service standards.  She was destined to be a hulk, not a carrier, after the war.

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I guess it depends on whether its maintained or unmaintained reserve.
(Following snipped for length).  It appears that British practice here is somewhat different from USN practice, at least as executed.  To provide some context, I'm a tour guide on the USS Iowa, so all of my serious study of things like mothballing comes from her and her sisters.  AFAIK, they were kept significantly less ready than the examples you give, even though they were the first line of the reserve fleet.  Then again, we didn't have the RN's ruinous fiscal and manpower problems, so there wasn't much reason to keep ships on such a quick reserve.

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But the Invincible did change a gearbox underway (see earlier post). However you need at least two shafts. I suspect it was cost not ability to change reduction gears that killed the Spruances. There are cases were they cut holes in the hull to replace machinery, but not cheap.
You have yet to convince me that Invincible can/did change a turbine underway, let alone the gearing.  Are gas turbines much, much easier to change than steam turbines/boilers?  Yes.  But other things aren't.  Gearing is a prominent example (reduction gears are big, heavy, and expensive.  Iowa's inspection covers are locked because a popular way to avoid going to sea involved throwing something into them) but there are lots and lots of others.

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From a quick wiz round the internet it appears that the removal of the crane did not give any more cells. (https://www.dsiac.org/resources/dsiac_journal/fall-2014-volume-1-number-2/promising-future-us-navy-vertical-launching).
Not exactly.  The Ticos aren't getting more cells installed after the crane is removed, but the Flight II and later Burkes were built without the cranes and did get the extra cells.

I haven't read all the thread yet but with regard to the idea of reserve or mothballed ships, one option could be to remove overhaul as a task and instead have different 'maintenance states' for ships (set by orders).

Assuming my suggestion for maintenance capacity is in force...

1) No Maintenance: Doesn't count against maintenance capacity and clock advances normally (even if in the same location as MF). No restriction on movement.
2) Normal Maintenance: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock doesn't advance. Normal maintenance costs. No restriction on movement.
3) Docked: When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at slow speed (perhaps 1-2x speed). Small increase in maintenance costs. A time penalty before movement - perhaps a few hours.
4) Dry Dock. Effectively same as overhaul. When in the same location as MF, counts against maintenance capacity and clock goes backward at fast speed. Maintenance costs as per current overhaul. Time penalty of perhaps 1-2 weeks before movement.
5) Reserve. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 25% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/4 normal. Time penalty of 2 months before movement.
6) Mothballed. Requires maintenance facilities but as if the ship was much smaller, perhaps 10% size. Clock does not advance. Maintenance costs 1/10th normal. Time penalty of maybe 6 months before movement.

A task group containing ships with status of anything but 1 + 2 would not be able to move unless those ships were detached. These are just rough estimates to give a flavour of the idea, rather than set in stone. Interested in comments on the principle.
Overall, I like it, although I would suggest that 2 and 3 need to be altered.  The problem is that when a ship is tied up, it's normally not ready for immediate steaming.  If nothing else, you have things like crew on liberty.  Status 2 would be the ship being kept ready, with crew rest not happening (maybe just freeze the clock as-is) and the maintenance clock continuing to tick at a diminished rate (maybe 25%), while at 3, the maintenance clock stops and the crew can rest.
(Or just go with sublight's suggestion)
Actually, implementing this might help in other areas, too.  Might the same mechanism be used to make civilian hangars take way, way longer to launch ships than do military hangars?

I'm thinking this is a good idea taken to far. I would suggest simplifying the list down to just Maintenance: None/Docked/Reserve.

1) None -  As stated.
2) Docked - Required for shore leave. Normal maintenance/slow rewind as suggested if MF present. The small delay is the time required to recall the crew.
3) Reserve - As stated.

'Dry Dock' could become whatever ends up happening with hanger repair, and 'Mothballed' could be handwaved away as scrapping a ship for components and then rebuilding from components if/when necessary.
I like this.  It's simpler, and accurately reflects what's going on, although you need to add a 'refit' option. 
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2016, 03:05:05 PM »
If we were to go with the simplified version, I would prefer to keep the mothball option over the reserve option.  Bigger effect on the dynamics of the game if it takes longer to bring the ships back into service and you get bigger maintenance cost savings.
 

Offline ChildServices

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2016, 03:25:35 PM »
I like the mothball idea. It gives me an excuse not to scrap my whole fleet every time a new I have a new generation of starships.

If parasites will consume parent MSP though, maybe add FACs to the list of ships available in "preferred strike group" on the ship design screen along with the carrier's preferred strike group being factored into the maintenance life statistic. That way designing carriers won't be as stressful.
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Offline sublight

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2016, 04:22:02 PM »
I dislike the mothball statistics. I enjoy using wolfpacks of missile boats and it just feels wrong that the time required to un-mothball a FAC is potentially slower than the time needed to build a new one from scratch.

In contrast the reserve stats sound great. It is significantly faster than rebuilding from scratch, yet still slow enough to be embarrassing if surprised by an invasion. It is cheap enough to greatly assist in maintaining a peace-time fleet, but not so cheap that the bean counters can't find reason to whine.
 

Offline ChildServices

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2016, 04:36:33 PM »
Maybe if it used a formula based on its BP instead of a hard statistic like "6 months"
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2016, 04:37:33 PM »
That seems reasonable to me.  Smaller, more simplistic designs should probably be faster to de-mothball just as they are faster to construct in the first place.
 

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Re: Considering Change to Maintenance Facilities
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2016, 06:07:35 PM »
Smaller and more simplistic may not be the same thing... so, Build Points, tonnage or something that takes both into account?
I believe I had FACs more expensive than some 10000t warships active at the same time.