Costly Refits

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.

Here is the existing Sword class frigate:

Sword II class Frigate      9,375 tons       284 Crew       1,571 BP       TCS 187    TH 900    EM 1,380
4800 km/s      Armour 4-39       Shields 46-368       HTK 64      Sensors 6/8/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.65 Years     MSP 628    AFR 117%    IFR 1.6%    1YR 127    5YR 1,902    Max Repair 225 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-450B Ion Drive (2)    Power 900    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 450    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 656,000 Litres    Range 19.8 billion km (47 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4)    Range 160,000km     TS: 4,800 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK II Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 4,800 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 16.6    Exp 5%

MK II Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8640     Range 66.8m km    Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 32     Range 9m km    MCR 812.4k km    Resolution 1
MK I Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.4m km
MK II Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

Here is the latest design. Apart from the obvious new engines, I have to add fire controls that match the higher speed. Better weapons are available and I also have ECM/ECCM, improved sensors and improved shields.

Sword III class Frigate      9,600 tons       310 Crew       1,814.3 BP       TCS 192    TH 1,152    EM 2,130
6000 km/s      Armour 4-40       Shields 71-426       HTK 70      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 40
Maint Life 2.44 Years     MSP 708    AFR 123%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 163    5YR 2,452    Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2)    Power 1152    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 576    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 642,000 Litres    Range 18.9 billion km (36 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-25 Weapons Battery (5x4)    Range 250,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 15-3.75     RM 50,000 km    ROF 20       
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-9 Stellarator Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 19    Exp 5%

MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8190     Range 76.2m km    Resolution 120
MK III Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 21     Range 8.6m km    MCR 771.7k km    Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Refit cost is 1733 BP (compared to 1814 BP) for new build, although it includes only 1416 tons of minerals. The obvious con is that I could build a new ship for virtually the same amount. The pros are that I preserve the experienced crew and I don't end up with out of date ships that I have to maintain anyway. With the total tonnage requirement for maintenance in C# Aurora, overall maintenance capacity is a consideration in addition to the required MSP to keep the ship maintained. Regarding the latter point, I suppose the 'cost' of a ship should include the maintenance. The MSP requirement over ten years would be 3x class cost, which is 75% of ship cost in wealth and minerals. When that is considered, the refit cost is a smaller percentage of the whole.

An alternative is a refit that leave some systems, such as weapons, intact and only upgrades engines, shields and electronics. This would cost 1154 BP, of which 942 tons would minerals. The pro is that it is cheaper and therefore I can refit more ships for the same time and cost plus the ship can operate with new Sword IIIs, but it leaves the design much shorter-ranged weapons and no ECM/ECCM..

Sword II - B class Frigate      9,600 tons       290 Crew       1,789.7 BP       TCS 192    TH 1,152    EM 2,130
6000 km/s      Armour 4-40       Shields 71-426       HTK 64      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.42 Years     MSP 699    AFR 123%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 164    5YR 2,456    Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2)    Power 1152    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 576    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 611,000 Litres    Range 18 billion km (34 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4)    Range 160,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 16.6    Exp 5%

MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8190     Range 76.2m km    Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 32     Range 9m km    MCR 812.4k km    Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

Or I just keep the old ships un-refitted and hope I run into a threat against which they would be useful. Currently I am refitting to the II-B design and building a small number of IIIs from scratch, but not I'm not convinced I have the best strategy so interested in opinions.

[kilo]

My point of view is simple. It can be painful if your fleet is undergoing refits or is rebuild while an enemy is knocking at the door. This is why I keep them in service until replacements are operational. Small refits are something completely different for me though. Swapping out ECM/ECCM is generally super cheap, fast and a huge improvement for your ship.
Changing the engines or god forbid, even the armor tech is something that goes too far for me. Changing weapons systems can be cost effective though. It is a case to case decision for me.

[Droll]

Slowly start building the new ones and keep the old ones. You can use the old ones in secondary defense roles or just PPV boats in the mean time probably.
Eventually you can scrap the old ones.

Right now, if it costs as much to refit theres generally speaking no point in doing so, think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.

[Kiero]

In my current game, I'm harassed by two alien races. My defence fleets are guarding jump points in rotation.
One fleet or rather a wing is on the jump point, the second one is in overhaul, the third one is in refit or in construction.

I also have two offence fleets, one is on seek and destroy mission second one is in refit right now.

So I tend to refit all my ships when I have an opportunity to do it.

[ISN]

I tend to refit all my ships, even when doing so costs as much as constructing new ones. Obviously this will depend on the enemies you're facing, but I usually find out-of-date ships to be next to useless besides for providing PPV. Taking into consideration the extra maintenance costs and the loss of crew grade and training, I almost always think it's worthwhile to refit. Also, I usually find myself more constrained by minerals than by build time, and refitting costs far less than building a new ship in terms of minerals. And besides, if you take into account the time it takes to fully train a fresh crew, refitting ships lets you bring fully-trained, up-to-date ships to the front line more quickly than constructing new ones does.

The main downside is that you can't use the old ships while they're being refitted, so if you need the ships urgently then it could make sense to construct new ones. I think I would only prefer to construct new ships over refitting old ones if I were desperately short on ships or if the old ships were still somewhat competitive with at least one of my enemies (and I had the spare maintenance to support them). In this case, since the older frigates are far outclassed by the enemies you're facing, I would probably refit them, while making sure that some are always available in case I need them urgently.

[Foxxonius Augustus]

If it were me I would refit ships to the Mk.IIb standard when they are not needed on station and begin new construction on the Mk.III. You retain the crews and can upgrade them the the Mk.III standard later when you have spare economy. In the mean time the Mk.IIb can keep up with your new build ships so as not to slow them down and also present more potential targets in combat, possibly preserving your shiny new ships for longer. Something else to consider is that while the refit is a significant portion of building a new ship it is not MORE than a new ship so it is still a savings, however small.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.

The problem is it won't be the same cost. I will have twice the tonnage to maintain and you pay for a ship again every thirteen years, not to mention the new ship will have an inexperienced crew while the experienced crew will be in an out-of-date ship. I'm actually leaning toward refitting even with almost the same cost. I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it

[Foxxonius Augustus]

I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it

I think you have your answer.

Like I said, start with refitting a few to the Mk.IIb first, it keeps your shipyards working but minimizes mineral usage. After a few ships are refit switch focus to new builds and keep refitting a few ships in the background when possible. The IIb might not be as capable as the Mk.III but hopefully the veteran crews will mitigate that.

[kingflute]

IRL, the limiting factor in the length of time a warship is commisioned for is the hull itself. As the ship travels, it undergoes various types of loading (such as wave impacts), and over time this begins to affect the properties of the hull material until it is no longer suitable for use. Of course, the larger the ship, the slower this process happens (compare HMS Hood or the Kongou-class capital ships of the IJN with the more modern type 23 frigates). A spaceship would still undergo this process, however as things are implimented in game this would have to be accounted for by RP purposes - unless Steve wishes to add a hull-life timer to ships.
Another thing to note is that equipment is often designed for a spicific ship class, and often has to be re-worked to fit a different hull design, but this is usually a quicker process than designing and building from scratch. This could be represented in game by giving a minor de-buff to a component installed as part of a refit.

This would allow for refits to function as a mid-life upgrade to a ship with aging equipment that can be carried out quicker and cheaper than building a whole new ship.

[papent]

In these situations i usually have a tiered upgrade plan:
Mk.2 - Previous Generation Design
Mk.2A3 - which are the new engines
Mk.2B3 new electronics + new engines
(Mk.2M3 includes all new systems if the new mark has new armor, as I never upgrade ships armor)
mk.3 Current Generation Design with all systems and armor included.

I Prebuild components before sending any ships to the shipyards to reduce downtime, however since c# I haven't see it make a difference in yard time.
I normally upgrade ships as they come in for overhaul so they gradually get upgraded and sometimes a ship may jump from original to full upgrade if enough components are prebuilt when it's time in the yard comes.

[serger]

Any refit can be considered as:
# a preliminary partial scrapping of non-fully-effective components with
# a producing of new components by increased (with refitting debuff) price and
# a temporary disabling of non-refitting (still-fully-effective) part of the ship

With this parsing an expediency of refit can be calculated more formally.

[Bluebreaker]

I really never bother refitting anything else than the electronics. Too time intensive.
Better to build a new ship and scrap the old one when I decide that I don't need it.

[nuclearslurpee]

Usually my approach to refits will depend on my strategic situation, particularly economically but also in terms of personnel.

If my economy is at the limit of what ships it can support, then building new ships is not really feasible and spending the same BP cost to refit an old ship to the new class is worth it if this preserves the crew training, which is probably worth the additional minerals lost from not scrapping the old ship directly. Similar applies if I no longer have enough new commanders to keep staffing new ships.

On the other hand if I can support both new construction and old models, usually my refits will be more limited, mainly to the cheaper electronic components - new fire controls, small sensors, and so on. Maybe also the cheaper small/PD weapons. Expensive parts like armor, engines, jump drives, or main weapon batteries are usually left alone in this case, basically the result are less-capable second-line ships for garrison/PPV and less intensive activities such as cleaning out smaller Precursor outposts.

[Zap0]

My game I have different empires take different approaches to this issue, partly for flavor.

Keeping extra ships around, even slightly outdated ones, is always a good thing, but money issues come first. Otherwise I prefer deconstructing the ships and building them new instead of retrofitting, because when deconstructing you get minerals and systems (=more minerals) back. You don't get refunded for the replaced systems when you refit. Why is that, anyway?

The crew training is more important for some ships than others, but your rail frigates definitely benefit a lot from it. The question then becomes: how soon do you expect them to be in action again?

[Beersatron]

For the Crew Experience, can you add a mechanic where you can "transfer crew" from one ship to another IF the ship that it is being transferred to is a class that you could have refit to?

So, you could transfer the 284 crew from old ship to new ship that requires 310 with a transfer penalty to training level since they are learning new tech and filling in the roster.