Author Topic: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma  (Read 3554 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1159
  • Thanked: 320 times
Boffman Class:

Code: [Select]
Boffman Class Cruiser      50,000 tons       1,194 Crew       6,066.1 BP       TCS 1,000    TH 6,000    EM 4,260
6000 km/s      Armour 6-120       Shields 142-426       HTK 261      Sensors 11/11/0/0      DCR 50      PPV 148
Maint Life 3.94 Years     MSP 10,091    AFR 400%    IFR 5.6%    1YR 1,032    5YR 15,485    Max Repair 450.0000 MSP
Magazine 814   
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   ENG   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP1200.00 (5)    Power 6000.0    Fuel Use 7.70%    Signature 1200.00    Explosion 7%
Fuel Capacity 3,000,000 Litres    Range 140.2 billion km (270 days at full power)
Delta S71 / R426 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.3 per second)

Size 4.0 Missile Launcher (20)     Missile Size: 4.0    Rate of Fire 15
Size 1.7 Missile Launcher (40)     Missile Size: 1.7    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC24-R1 (6)     Range 24.3m km    Resolution 1
Anti-Missile Missile Mark One (180)    Speed: 49,882 km/s    End: 0.7m     Range: 2.2m km    WH: 1    Size: 1.70    TH: 415/249/124
Anti-Ship Missile Mark One (90)    Speed: 16,000 km/s    End: 12.7m     Range: 12.2m km    WH: 10    Size: 4.00    TH: 106/64/32

Active Search Sensor AS24-R1 (1)     GPS 168     Range 24.3m km    MCR 2.2m km    Resolution 1
EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

 - Just farting around in a throwaway game while I kill time waiting for 1.13... This is the first warship I've got slated for service. I'm 49 years in and have started with an NPR for a change. Each set of launchers gets 4.5 volleys, and has one M-FCS for every ten tubes. Armor is pretty light, but the shields are pretty ok and the AMMs kick ass with a ~90% kill rate versus my own Size 4 ASMs and some pretty good range to boot. They'll exhibit roughly a 1 in 3 kill rate vs. missiles that are moving at about 40,000 km/s. The combat range is roughly 23 billion kilometers round trip assuming a 3 month loiter time in the OpFor. The ASMs have a roughly 2 in 3 chance to hit targets moving at the same speed as the Boffman Class, not great, but they hit pretty hard and have a decent range. The Fire Control and Active Sensors can find a 50 Ton target at approximately twice the effective ranger of the ASMs, so they can almost completely thwart the range debuff of an ECM 50 and make the accuracy of the ASMs drop to 1 in 3 against ECM 50 versus a target moving 6,000 km/s.

 - Shortcomings include a high maintenance requirement, as well as a pretty short range. The Boffman Class doesn't want for speed though, and there will be a beam variant built off the same engine config and tonnage. 4 are planned along with a pair of "Jump Cruiser" ships for moving them. The eagle eyed among you will notice that my AMMs are Size 1.7, and the OCD among you will doubtless be frothing at the mouth because of it. To answer the inevitable, "Why???" the reason is because the launchers were designed first. I wanted to squeeze the largest possible missile out of a 10 second reload time, and 1.7 was the biggest without kicking it over to 15 seconds. That, and I like my AMMs with a lot of range... engage early, engage often. :) The Size 4 is the same story, biggest I could get on Reload tech 4 while retaining a 15 second reload.

 - The EM / TH Passive suite is pretty bare bones, but it's a helluva lot better than blind. The Auxiliary Bridge and the Main Engineering help out with the ship's Maintenance Life issues and just improve the performance overall. Yes, that's 3,000 tons of fuel, but it's powering 25,000 tons of engine to crank out that sweet, sweet 6,000 km/s of pure SPEED. Those bad boys are 5 kilotons per engine and sitting at a 75% power reduction because getting speed and long range on the same chassis is hard. :( Those shield generators are a kiloton a pop, and the ship uses two and half kilo tons, or about 5% of it's entire mass, for Engineering Spaces. 3 Large Maintenance Storage bays, 3 small ones, a tiny one and a fighter one make those nice round tonnage numbers that I love to see. Roughly 1,200 brave (or stupid) souls staff one of these monsters, and the Boffman Class will be the hammer of my fleet arm... for now.

 - Feedback, as always, is welcome. :)

EDIT: The Missile launchers are 7,400 tons, or almost 15% of the ship's payload... holy smeg. With the magazines thrown in that's 9,250 tons or 18.5% of the ship's overall mass in firepower. If you include the Active Sensors and M-FCS systems though, it comes out to 10,350; a little over 20% for the ship's "mission tonnage" Not too bad IMO. ;D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:13:51 AM by xenoscepter »
 

Offline Barkhorn

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • B
  • Posts: 719
  • Thanked: 133 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 01:14:45 AM »
I'd probably cut a little warhead on the ASM, 9 penetrates just as well as 10, and it'll get you slightly faster or more agile missiles.  I also never like making warships without any beam PD, but I guess with those shields and AMM's you can handle leakers without them.

Did you consider putting in a CIC?  Or do they not work with missiles?  How about ECM/ECCM?

At any rate, looks like a pretty good ship.
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1159
  • Thanked: 320 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 01:20:29 AM »
 - CIC, to my knowledge, does not work with missiles. As for ECM / ECCM, I've only got ECM 20... but my FCS is already overbuilt along with my AMMs to get that range. I can engage a missile moving 16,000 km/s with ECM 50 at roughly 50/50 odds to hit from about 1m km away... which gives me more than 5 salvos to kill it... and I've only got 4.5 anyway so. Nah, I skipped the ECM / ECCM. If I've fired all of my AMMs, I've already emptied my ASMs and should be retreating at that point anyway, so with any luck the speed will let me get out of firing range quickly... and stay out of it until I can get away. Assuming they're not dead already of course. :)

 - As for the warhead, yeah probably, but optimal is boring and damage is damage. That's one less square of armor to protect them from salvos #2, 3 and 4. ;D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:22:09 AM by xenoscepter »
 

Offline brondi00

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • b
  • Posts: 88
  • Thanked: 30 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2021, 01:45:20 AM »
I guess I don't understand why it needs 4 years or maintenance life and 140 billion kms of range.  You said range was 23 billion but it certainly looks to be way more than that. 

And you have 9 months deployment time and 4 years of maintenance supplies.

To me it seems like you could easily have more launchers, more reloads, and/or more speed if you took out the massive amount of fuel and maintenance.

Cheers
 
The following users thanked this post: xenoscepter

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1159
  • Thanked: 320 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 01:59:21 AM »
I guess I don't understand why it needs 4 years or maintenance life and 140 billion kms of range.  You said range was 23 billion but it certainly looks to be way more than that. 

And you have 9 months deployment time and 4 years of maintenance supplies.

To me it seems like you could easily have more launchers, more reloads, and/or more speed if you took out the massive amount of fuel and maintenance.

Cheers

 - 23 billion kilometers round trip.That's 23 to the OpFor, 23 back from the OpFor AND 23 spent operating IN the OpFor. So from Earth to OpFor, the max range is 23 billion kilometers w/o a tanker, because it's 23 there and 23 back. That's assuming that 3 months, or about 23 billion kilometers worth of fuel are reserved for maneuvers inside of the OpFor, if the ship's mission requires less, then it's range is longer than 23 by however less is needed divided by 2. 4 years of Maintenance life isn't a lot when you consider a warship may likely receive grievous damage in battle. Those engines, if battle damaged will require 900 MSP per to repair, I've only got enough to repair an engine 11 times. A bit excessive, yes, but considering it's intended to spend 3 months in enemy territory without any resupply beyond ammo... well that's a rate of roughly 3 engine hits per month to eat through the entire stock of MSP.

 - Oh, and it has five of them... and they make up half the ship's mass and are therefore the most likely things to take damage. So, yeah the MSP and Maintenance life seems sane enough to me. Hell after a quartet of nine month deployments she'll only have another year left on her Maintenance clock anyway. Mid-war overhauls can be rather... inconvenient for the most part. She's only got 5 deployments in her before she needs an overhaul, assuming she doesn't take any real damage. It also has no Cargo Shuttle Bays, and as such to my knowledge must return to a Maintenance Facility to restock, although I might be wrong on that bit... the new resupply rules still confuse me. ???
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 02:02:58 AM by xenoscepter »
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline tobijon

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • t
  • Posts: 91
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 06:03:21 AM »
23 billion for those three still leaves you with 69 b kilometers, your range is 140, you could easily decrease the fuel tank from 3.000.000 to 2.000.000 and use the leftover space for something else. 1.000.000 tanks take up a lot of space.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

  • Captain
  • **********
  • T
  • Posts: 494
  • Thanked: 203 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2021, 08:52:14 AM »
Won't a smaller allocation of higher boost engines, plus a larger fuel allocation, result in identical range/speed with less propulsion tonnage?

Also those ASMs are really slow for MPD missiles. Your opponent only needs 320,000 km/s PD capacity to eat them for breakfast.

For reference, at 6000km/s tracking, that's only 54 shots. 14 railguns. 2100 tons.
 

Offline Polestar

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 83
  • Thanked: 67 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2021, 09:27:22 AM »
One thing I love about this game is learning about other folks' ship build priorities. For example, compared to most of my own missile cruiser or supercruiser-type ships at equivalent tech and totaling an equivalent size, the Boffman has:
* Vastly larger and more fuel-efficient engines; vastly greater range
* Very much smaller magazine capacity; lesser offensive throw weight; roughly equal defensive throw weight
* Somewhat greater defensive capability
* roughly equal space devoted to fire controls and sensors; more fire control and less active sensor redundancy
* Greater deployment time; far greater maintenance life.

So, if I were fielding ships to do what the Boffman does, the biggest change I'd make would be to downsize the engines, without accepting a loss of speed, and therefore accepting a massive loss in range - to be made up for with fleet tankers - and then to devote the saved space to missile storage. For a short-range missile combatant, I would also put a lot more tonnage into launchers.  In fact, I'd get twitchy if my design had less than 40% of its hull space devoted to missile launchers and missile magazines, and I've been known to go as high as 60%. As for reloads? For a short-range missile combatant like the Boffman, I'd feel naked without something like 12-15 reloads on the ship itself. For a medium or long-range combatant, my lower limit would be about 8 on-board; fleet ammo ships could carry extra.

Then there are the missiles themselves.
The Boffman mounts very short-range ASMs, coupled with extremely fast-firing ASM launchers, and is therefore intended for fights at what I call "polearm range" - greater than beam weapons; less than medium or long range missiles. I seldom build vessels mounting this class of missiles, because my enemies - who tend to have medium-range missiles - would typically get to fire off their entire offensive armament before I got so much as a shot in edgewise. For most of my playthroughs, the one use case for short-range, rapid-fire ASMs+launchers are in jump gate defence bases, hitting enemies post-jump, but which want to stay out of immediate beam weapon range. The kind of base that "pokes them with a pike before they can swing a sword", if that makes sense.

Let's talk tactical profile.
In Aurora, a space vessel might engage enemies at:
"artillery range" (long-range, two-stage ASMs) (greater than ~100m km),
"bow range" (medium-range, one- or two-stage ASMs) (~5-100m km),
"polearm range" (short-range, single-stage ASMs and AMMs, extremely long-range beam weapons) (~0.8-5m km),
"sword range" (longer-range beam weapons)(~200-800 k km), or
"knifefight range" (carronades, or anything coupled with a short-range fire control) (0 to ~200 k km).

The Boffman is intended for polearm-range combat. Here, it lacks both the launchers and especially the magazine space to be particularly potent for its size and cost. The shields are probably an inefficient use of space and cost at this range, but improve robustness and survivability at all other ranges.

The Boffman is just as vulnerable against artillery-range and bow-range attacks as a beam weapon ship would be. While it does have shields, armor, and AMMs, a 50k ton ship would benefit from better protection. More AMMs in the magazines, and/or perhaps 3-5% of hull space devoted to close in anti-missile defences, or always staying in a well-defended fleet - something along those lines. It entirely lacks long-range sensors, so I presume that it will never attempt lone operations, and will always work with ships having better sensors than itself.

The Boffman is exceedingly vulnerable at sword- and knife-ranges, as it lacks anything like the damage-per second to hold up in a close fight. While its protection is perfectly adequate for its tech level, the lack of damage-dealing ability means death against opponents of equal tech, size, and cost. While it entirely lacks active sensor redundancy against microwaves, the shields ease my mind considerably here.

A contributing problem is that, because this ship is exceedingly large, it takes longer to build, which in turn means greater time elapsed from design to fielding ships with trained crews, which in turn means the empire has to wait longer to field ships that can actually fight effectively at close and medium ranges. This will be less of a problem if this game involves very long travel distances to possible enemies and slow tech development.

Now, one thing the Boffman does have is fairly good speed for its tech level. If the enemy doesn't have spoiler tech or greater, speed is going to be a major force-multiplier for this design, allowing it to dictate the range in in at least some circumstances. If, however, the enemy does have sufficiently high tech - and some do - then the Boffman is going to be too slow. And, for the Boffman, being too slow means death.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 09:30:52 AM by Polestar »
 

Offline serger

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 638
  • Thanked: 120 times
  • Silver Supporter Silver Supporter : Support the forums with a Silver subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2021, 09:30:40 AM »
Looks like battlecruiser, very autonomous, but... you'll need missile resupply in any case, and, well, she have no jump drive, so she isn't really so autonomous!
So, it will be quite more elegant to remove at least half of fuel tanks to fleet tanker, that will wait with jump tender at the nearest safe JP.
And if these girls aren't obligatory gregarious - they need reserve Actives for missile guidance after heavy damage, I think.
 

Offline misanthropope

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • m
  • Posts: 274
  • Thanked: 73 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2021, 10:05:00 AM »
feel like the low throw weight overshadows the positives.  think you could trade almost anything for more firepower and wind up better off.

a benefit of longer-ranged AMMs is that you don't need as many launchers.  that's not true if you're wading through AMM spam but this ship pretty much is just going to have to soak AMM spam regardless. 

maybe im just johnny one note here, but i feel that "full-sized ASM launcher" is a non-starter unless you've got that "sonic boom" cheese going, where you're dumping out missiles the same speed as your ship to turn your entire magazine into one preposterous volley. 

from your own posts i infer that you have double the tanks you need.  on the back of the ol' envelope i make a 50 missile broadside with 4 total volleys, pretty attainable.

i could not agree more that "damage is damage".  flip side of that is "damage times accuracy" is a pretty good first approximation to what you want to optimize, and i suspect your ASMs are over-warheaded and under-speeded for that.
 
The following users thanked this post: xenoscepter

Offline brondi00

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • b
  • Posts: 88
  • Thanked: 30 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2021, 10:37:31 AM »
Maybe you aren't a native speaker so this isn't meant to be rude.  But round trip means the distance to that place and back, usually over the same route.

So a 23b km round trip means 23 bkm there and back.  You have enough for a 100 b km round trip if we alot the rest of that fuel for operations in theatre (40bkm of range in theatre is still excessive in my opinion).

Which is why I said you have way more than 23bkm round trip.

There seems to still be some confusion since you say 23 there, 23 on theatre, and 23 back (46bkm round trip with a reserve for ops) but you still have 140bkm or range.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but you asked what we thought and that was my very first thought

As for the extra maintenance you do, you.  But you have to come back to base every 9 months to rest the crew and could easily restock the maint supplies then.  So you don't really need enough for its entirely life between overhauls on the ship.

But this a a philosophical difference.  You can certainly have your ships how you want.  Me, if I'm paying maintenance for a military ship I want it to be as military as possible, and I'm going to offload as much of the commerical components that don't require maintenance when isolated on a commercial ship, as possible. 

Which means a commercial ship with more fuel and more maint supplies to top my mil vessels off when they need it.  Then a 50k ton ship is a beast to fight since it is a lean, mean, fighting machine.   Armed and defended to the teeth. 

(Though I don't usually make 50k ton ships, maybe a few per game to be a battleship or carrier surrounded by cruisers that can do independent ops away from the battleship).
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1159
  • Thanked: 320 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2021, 12:12:26 PM »
Maybe you aren't a native speaker so this isn't meant to be rude.  But round trip means the distance to that place and back, usually over the same route.

So a 23b km round trip means 23 bkm there and back.  You have enough for a 100 b km round trip if we alot the rest of that fuel for operations in theatre (40bkm of range in theatre is still excessive in my opinion).

Which is why I said you have way more than 23bkm round trip.

There seems to still be some confusion since you say 23 there, 23 on theatre, and 23 back (46bkm round trip with a reserve for ops) but you still have 140bkm or range.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but you asked what we thought and that was my very first thought

As for the extra maintenance you do, you.  But you have to come back to base every 9 months to rest the crew and could easily restock the maint supplies then.  So you don't really need enough for its entirely life between overhauls on the ship.

But this a a philosophical difference.  You can certainly have your ships how you want.  Me, if I'm paying maintenance for a military ship I want it to be as military as possible, and I'm going to offload as much of the commerical components that don't require maintenance when isolated on a commercial ship, as possible. 

Which means a commercial ship with more fuel and more maint supplies to top my mil vessels off when they need it.  Then a 50k ton ship is a beast to fight since it is a lean, mean, fighting machine.   Armed and defended to the teeth. 

(Though I don't usually make 50k ton ships, maybe a few per game to be a battleship or carrier surrounded by cruisers that can do independent ops away from the battleship).

 - I uh, am a native speaker, but thanks for considering it. :) I uh, also made a math boo-boo... it was 48 round trip my dumb brain took the 48 for 46 and divided by half one too many times. My sincerest apologies.

feel like the low throw weight overshadows the positives.  think you could trade almost anything for more firepower and wind up better off.

a benefit of longer-ranged AMMs is that you don't need as many launchers.  that's not true if you're wading through AMM spam but this ship pretty much is just going to have to soak AMM spam regardless. 

maybe im just johnny one note here, but i feel that "full-sized ASM launcher" is a non-starter unless you've got that "sonic boom" cheese going, where you're dumping out missiles the same speed as your ship to turn your entire magazine into one preposterous volley. 

from your own posts i infer that you have double the tanks you need.  on the back of the ol' envelope i make a 50 missile broadside with 4 total volleys, pretty attainable.

i could not agree more that "damage is damage".  flip side of that is "damage times accuracy" is a pretty good first approximation to what you want to optimize, and i suspect your ASMs are over-warheaded and under-speeded for that.

 - Yes, box launcher is king but the king is boring. :P I tweaked the ASMs a bit and got nearly 10% increase in accuracy. Might consider producing those instead. Maybe I have rotten luck, but I tend to get overtly massive systems in my games a lot. :(

And if these girls aren't obligatory gregarious - they need reserve Actives for missile guidance after heavy damage, I think.

 - They operate in pairs or squadrons of 4, plus a "Warp Cruiser" or two for Jump and Sensor capabilities.  :)

One thing I love about this game is learning about other folks' ship build priorities. For example, compared to most of my own missile cruiser or supercruiser-type ships at equivalent tech and totaling an equivalent size, the Boffman has:
* Vastly larger and more fuel-efficient engines; vastly greater range
* Very much smaller magazine capacity; lesser offensive throw weight; roughly equal defensive throw weight
* Somewhat greater defensive capability
* roughly equal space devoted to fire controls and sensors; more fire control and less active sensor redundancy
* Greater deployment time; far greater maintenance life.

So, if I were fielding ships to do what the Boffman does, the biggest change I'd make would be to downsize the engines, without accepting a loss of speed, and therefore accepting a massive loss in range - to be made up for with fleet tankers - and then to devote the saved space to missile storage. For a short-range missile combatant, I would also put a lot more tonnage into launchers.  In fact, I'd get twitchy if my design had less than 40% of its hull space devoted to missile launchers and missile magazines, and I've been known to go as high as 60%. As for reloads? For a short-range missile combatant like the Boffman, I'd feel naked without something like 12-15 reloads on the ship itself. For a medium or long-range combatant, my lower limit would be about 8 on-board; fleet ammo ships could carry extra.

Then there are the missiles themselves.
The Boffman mounts very short-range ASMs, coupled with extremely fast-firing ASM launchers, and is therefore intended for fights at what I call "polearm range" - greater than beam weapons; less than medium or long range missiles. I seldom build vessels mounting this class of missiles, because my enemies - who tend to have medium-range missiles - would typically get to fire off their entire offensive armament before I got so much as a shot in edgewise. For most of my playthroughs, the one use case for short-range, rapid-fire ASMs+launchers are in jump gate defence bases, hitting enemies post-jump, but which want to stay out of immediate beam weapon range. The kind of base that "pokes them with a pike before they can swing a sword", if that makes sense.

Let's talk tactical profile.
In Aurora, a space vessel might engage enemies at:
"artillery range" (long-range, two-stage ASMs) (greater than ~100m km),
"bow range" (medium-range, one- or two-stage ASMs) (~5-100m km),
"polearm range" (short-range, single-stage ASMs and AMMs, extremely long-range beam weapons) (~0.8-5m km),
"sword range" (longer-range beam weapons)(~200-800 k km), or
"knifefight range" (carronades, or anything coupled with a short-range fire control) (0 to ~200 k km).

The Boffman is intended for polearm-range combat. Here, it lacks both the launchers and especially the magazine space to be particularly potent for its size and cost. The shields are probably an inefficient use of space and cost at this range, but improve robustness and survivability at all other ranges.

The Boffman is just as vulnerable against artillery-range and bow-range attacks as a beam weapon ship would be. While it does have shields, armor, and AMMs, a 50k ton ship would benefit from better protection. More AMMs in the magazines, and/or perhaps 3-5% of hull space devoted to close in anti-missile defences, or always staying in a well-defended fleet - something along those lines. It entirely lacks long-range sensors, so I presume that it will never attempt lone operations, and will always work with ships having better sensors than itself.

The Boffman is exceedingly vulnerable at sword- and knife-ranges, as it lacks anything like the damage-per second to hold up in a close fight. While its protection is perfectly adequate for its tech level, the lack of damage-dealing ability means death against opponents of equal tech, size, and cost. While it entirely lacks active sensor redundancy against microwaves, the shields ease my mind considerably here.

A contributing problem is that, because this ship is exceedingly large, it takes longer to build, which in turn means greater time elapsed from design to fielding ships with trained crews, which in turn means the empire has to wait longer to field ships that can actually fight effectively at close and medium ranges. This will be less of a problem if this game involves very long travel distances to possible enemies and slow tech development.

Now, one thing the Boffman does have is fairly good speed for its tech level. If the enemy doesn't have spoiler tech or greater, speed is going to be a major force-multiplier for this design, allowing it to dictate the range in in at least some circumstances. If, however, the enemy does have sufficiently high tech - and some do - then the Boffman is going to be too slow. And, for the Boffman, being too slow means death.

 - That's quite an interesting breakdown! :) I designed around Tech +1, maybe Tech +2 tops... at Tech +3 the Boffman is dead meat no matter what.

Won't a smaller allocation of higher boost engines, plus a larger fuel allocation, result in identical range/speed with less propulsion tonnage?

Also those ASMs are really slow for MPD missiles. Your opponent only needs 320,000 km/s PD capacity to eat them for breakfast.

For reference, at 6000km/s tracking, that's only 54 shots. 14 railguns. 2100 tons.

 - Probably not. Smaller engines eat more fuel than bigger ones of equivalent tonnage, and when you add boost on top of that, well no it absolutely destroys the range. Getting a ship to go fast AND far is hard.. and expensive. I cannot fathom the arcane math which led you to that PD analysis, could you explain that a bit better? ???


23 billion for those three still leaves you with 69 b kilometers, your range is 140, you could easily decrease the fuel tank from 3.000.000 to 2.000.000 and use the leftover space for something else. 1.000.000 tanks take up a lot of space.

 - Because doing math at 5am is a bad idea. It's meant to be 48, but my tired brain turned that to 46 and then divided it by half again for reasons known only to the Old Gods which govern it. :)
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

  • Captain
  • **********
  • T
  • Posts: 494
  • Thanked: 203 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2021, 01:27:45 PM »
Won't a smaller allocation of higher boost engines, plus a larger fuel allocation, result in identical range/speed with less propulsion tonnage?

Also those ASMs are really slow for MPD missiles. Your opponent only needs 320,000 km/s PD capacity to eat them for breakfast.

For reference, at 6000km/s tracking, that's only 54 shots. 14 railguns. 2100 tons.

 - Probably not. Smaller engines eat more fuel than bigger ones of equivalent tonnage, and when you add boost on top of that, well no it absolutely destroys the range. Getting a ship to go fast AND far is hard.. and expensive. I cannot fathom the arcane math which led you to that PD analysis, could you explain that a bit better? ???

I don't have the link on me, but rule of thumb is that (regardless of boost level and engine tech), a given range/speed combination is achieved with minimum mass by having 3x as much engine as fuel. You are waaay off that ratio.

PD analysis: beam weapons have ~100% chance to hit in final fire against a target at their tracking speed (its a bit less, but crew and CO bonuses exist so I round up). Thus, a weapon effectively has a speed capacity to kill. 1 shot at 10,000 km/s tracking can stop 1 10,000km/s target or half a 20,000km/s target.

Thus, the PD threat of a missile volley is its speed*number of missiles. You have 20 missiles at 16,000km/s, so 320,000km/s capacity is needed to stop them all.

A 10cm railgun is 4 shots/150 tons. At 6000km/s tracking, you need 54 shots to stop all 20 missiles. You can get that with only 14 railguns, massing all of 6000 tons.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • J
  • Posts: 2839
  • Thanked: 674 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 01:42:31 PM »
In general terms I agree with what most have said about range and fuel. In general you should rely on tankers to bring your fleet too and from the theatre of operation. This is in regard to main battle fleets. I could see a case being made for long range capacity on a certain types of ships that operates alone and who's primary objective is reconnaissance.

If your objective is to attack an enemy far from your own territory you need to rely on commercial support ships to carry fuel, ammunition and supplies for sustained fleet operations. If you rely on your combat ships to provide for all the ammunition, supplies and fuel storage it leaves very little room for mission tonnage. In my opinion a proper military ship need to have at least around 50% of mission tonnage, that leaves 50% for engines, crew, engineering, supplies and fuel. Mission tonnage is hangars, armour, shields, weapons and ammunition.

The ship above is in my opinion a scout ship and not a combat ship and I see no real problem with such a concept. Reconnaissance in force also is a concept worth pursuing. But if you build an entire fleet around that concept you get a very inefficient fleet even from a role-play perspective in my opinion. The problem with using a 50k ship as ascout is that they are not very stealthy which is important on a scout. I like scouts to be below 10k in size and able to deploy fighter scouts as well.

Fuel efficiency for pure combat ships should in most scenarios be a very low priority as combat ships should not provide for the majority of scouting or generally be moving around as much, not even during battles, that is why you bring scouting element with any serious fleet.

When it comes to engines I rarely have combat ships with fuel efficiency lower than 50%... I usually like to have most capital ships at a fuel efficiency between about 40-80%. I do sometimes build commercial engines large combat ships that naturally get efficient engines but that is mostly an issue with providing them with jump capabilities that I can't afford for military engines. A 100k ton carrier at "Ion Engine" technology you can't build a realistic jump engine for.

In terms of maintenance I generally like to have about 2-3 years of maintenance life on most capital ships that have deployment ranges of 9-12 months. The more expensive components you have on a ships (generally engines) the more expensive its maintenance get. But you also need to consider what bonuses you get from offices, especially if you also have a main engineering section on the ship, this will reduce maintenance failures and give you more maintenance life than is suggested most of the time

In terms of missile launchers it might seem boring to not use full size launchers, but full size launchers are so inefficient against decent PD they become nearly useless against enemy capital ships. For role-play reasons I do restrict usage of box launchers to more sane reasons as I don't like to abuse game mechanic flaws. I often use 0.3 sized launchers on capital ships for ASM duty with roughly 1-2 salvos in the magazines. If I instead had box launchers I could probably still fit as many missiles on the ship with the advantage of firing a much larger salvo to overwhelm an opponent, I could then bring commercial hangar ships and reload them, but I feel that is taking too much of an advantage of the game mechanics.

My general assessment is that the ship have way too much engines and too little mission tonnage for what it is meant to be doing. Don't concern yourself about fuel efficiency and use tankers to move outside your borders and inside your borders you should have refuelling stations or colonies to deal with capital ships moving around. If the ship is meant to be a scout it is too big and don't have much of any scouting ability.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:45:05 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
The following users thanked this post: xenoscepter

Offline captainwolfer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • c
  • Posts: 224
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: A 50 kiloton Missile Cruiser, Ceramic Composite / Magneto-Plasma
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 01:48:42 PM »
So, just putting this into Iceranger's missile and ship optimizer, for a 50,000 ton ship with a desired range of 70 billion and a speed of 6,000 km/s, and assuming you have fuel efficency 0.6, you could save a bit more than 5,000 tons of space by switching to:
5x 69 HS (3450 ton) engines with a 1.10 boost and 5,637,000 fuel.

However, what I would reccomend is switching to the following, since it is more fuel efficent than the above for only 200 tons more:
5x 75 HS engines with a 1.00 boost and 4,261,000 fuel


Personally, I would change the Size 4 launchers to be reduced size, and stick at least 60 of them on, and use the increased space from optimized engines to add magazine size as well.