Author Topic: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio  (Read 2097 times)

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Offline imperator1550 (OP)

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Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« on: April 14, 2022, 04:56:20 AM »
It's been proved that the optimal engine to fuel ratio is 3 to 1, in terms of size.  Considering a fixed total size of engines and fuel, this ratio will produce the optimal speed and range.  (https://www. reddit. com/r/aurora/comments/g94nko/ship_design_math_or_the_formula_behind_the/).

But, I was tinkering around in the ship designer and it turns out that this is not true.  I fitted engines that had various sizes but equal engine power to copies of an existing design, and tweaked the amount of engineering spaces and fuel tanks until the ship roughly 120k tons in size, the maintenance life is around 3. 5 years.

As it turns out, the larger the engine, the more engineering spaces I had to add, and the fewer fuel tanks I could add, which means the final range is lower.  According to my tests, I achieved the greatest range at around 2 to 1 engine to fuel ratio.

I suspect the reason that larger engines require more engineering spaces is that larger engines are more likely to malfunction, maintenance failures are applied as strength-2 internal hits and larger components are more likely to get hit due to their higher HTK.  However, their higher HTK should also proportionally reduce their chance of actually getting damaged from the internal hit.  So, I have no idea how to math works out here.

So, if now we fix the total size of the engine, fuel and the engineering spaces required to keep the ship at a certain maintenance life, instead of simply fixing the total size of the engine and fuel, what is the optimal engine to fuel ratio?
 

Offline skoormit

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2022, 08:09:32 AM »
It's been proved that the optimal engine to fuel ratio is 3 to 1, in terms of size.  Considering a fixed total size of engines and fuel, this ratio will produce the optimal speed and range.  (https://www. reddit. com/r/aurora/comments/g94nko/ship_design_math_or_the_formula_behind_the/).

But, I was tinkering around in the ship designer and it turns out that this is not true.  I fitted engines that had various sizes but equal engine power to copies of an existing design, and tweaked the amount of engineering spaces and fuel tanks until the ship roughly 120k tons in size, the maintenance life is around 3. 5 years.

As it turns out, the larger the engine, the more engineering spaces I had to add, and the fewer fuel tanks I could add, which means the final range is lower.  According to my tests, I achieved the greatest range at around 2 to 1 engine to fuel ratio.

I suspect the reason that larger engines require more engineering spaces is that larger engines are more likely to malfunction, maintenance failures are applied as strength-2 internal hits and larger components are more likely to get hit due to their higher HTK.  However, their higher HTK should also proportionally reduce their chance of actually getting damaged from the internal hit.  So, I have no idea how to math works out here.

So, if now we fix the total size of the engine, fuel and the engineering spaces required to keep the ship at a certain maintenance life, instead of simply fixing the total size of the engine and fuel, what is the optimal engine to fuel ratio?

The "maintenance life" stat provides a useful rough idea for how long a given design can sustain itself while deployed, but it is not a great metric for comparing designs, especially designs of different sizes.
I suggest you retry your comparisons, but instead of adding engineering spaces to manipulate maintenance life, add maintenance storage bays.
I suspect you will find that the design cost of using a larger engine is much, much smaller this way.

But you do bring up an important tradeoff in ship design. A ship with a single large engine requires more MSP while deployed than an otherwise identical ship with multiple smaller engines with the same parameters and the same total size as the single large engine.
This happens because when a maintenance failure occurs, the component is selected randomly via the DAC table.
The DAC% of the engines between the two designs will be the same, because they have the same total HTK (unless some rounding is occurring, and the sum of the smaller HTKs does not equal the HTK of the larger engine; but if that makes a significant difference then we are talking about an edge case limitation of how the DAC table works).

For the single-engine design, the MSP cost of hitting that DAC% on the table is the cost of that large engine.
For the multi-engine design, the MSP cost of hitting that same DAC% is the proportionally smaller cost of the smaller engine.
Therefore the average MSP cost per maintenance failure is greater for the single-engine design.
And since the chance of a maintenance failure is the same between both ships, the MSP cost over time is higher for the single-engine ship.
The advantage of the larger engine is greater fuel efficiency. So, as ever, design decisions involve tradeoffs.

The difference in ongoing maintenance cost between the two designs should be fairly small, unless the engine is a very large portion of the cost of the ship.
For most warships, I think, engines are not a very large portion of the cost.


 

Online misanthropope

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2022, 09:34:17 AM »
i agree with everything you said, skoormit, except

>For most warships, I think, engines are not a very large portion of the cost.

conceivably you might mean that production costs are less significant than maintenance over time, which man i dunno, might be true.  but engines as a fraction of build cost?  engines _are_ the build cost oa a warship; pretty much always and everywhere you're hard limited by gallicite.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2022, 09:58:56 AM »
So, if now we fix the total size of the engine, fuel and the engineering spaces required to keep the ship at a certain maintenance life, instead of simply fixing the total size of the engine and fuel, what is the optimal engine to fuel ratio?

This is unlikely to have a clean solution to this problem. As the engineering spaces required to keep a ship at a certain maintenance life depend on not only the size of the ship but also the total cost of the ship.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2022, 10:23:32 AM »
Maintenance is a rather complicated set of mechanics, in part because documentation is a bit hard to find compared to most other mechanics. However there are a few bits and pieces which can be combined to try and understand the full picture:
  • Failure rate is proportional to ship size, specifically 0.02% * ship_HS / engineering_size_fraction along with some multiplier based on the maintenance clock
  • DAC% is proportional only to component size, notably it is not in any way related to cost or HTK. Of course armor has zero DAC%.
  • Engine HTK is equal to SQRT(engine_HS); I'm not sure offhand if non-integer results are rounded or floored, but this does imply certain HTK break points either way.
  • As stated in the OP, component failures are modeled by a 2-damage roll against a component selected from the DAC% table.
  • The repair cost of a component failure is simply the component BP cost (paid of course in MSP).
Based on this we can see how to estimate the maintenance life, although this would be a messy calculation that is intimately dependent on the actual components loaded onto the ship - it isn't enough to just say "the ship is 120k tons with 40k tons of engines", because all of the other components will contribute to the estimated maintenance life.

That being said, we can evaluate the maintenance cost of engines fairly independently at a less abstract level. Consider two engine sections of the same size and therefore total DAC%, let's say that one engine section has 8x size-25 INPE engines (cost 125, HTK 5) and the other has 2x size-100 INPE engines (cost 500, HTK 10) - for right now we will ignore the difference in resulting fuel range. The 8-engine section has DAC% chance to roll a 'hit' on a maintenance failure, and once hit has a 40% chance (2 damage / 5 HTK) to suffer an engine failure requiring 125 MSP to repair; the expected cost is therefore 50 MSP every time the engine section is targeted. On the other hand, the 2-engine section once hit has a 20% chance (2 damage / 10 HTK) to suffer a failure requiring 500 MSP to repair, costing 100 MSP on average when the engine section is targeted.

So the smaller engines are better right? Well, not necessarily. As skoormit suggested, the solution here is in part that we need to look at both engineering spaces and maintenance storage solutions. Assuming that the ship has the same size (say, 600 HS or 30k tons), we can achieve a specific AFR% for a specific number of engineering spaces (say, 24 engineering spaces for 300% nominal AFR). Now consider a balance of fuel and MSP spaces. For the 8-engine section, if we suppose that we need 1/3 as much fuel as engines we have about 66 HS of fuel storage. For the 2-engine section, since fuel efficiency scales with SQRT(engine_HS), we only need half as much fuel to achieve the same range, some 33 HS of fuel. The larger engines do cost twice as much in maintenance requirements, but at the above calculated 100 MSP per engine failure roll compared to 50 MSP for the 8-engine section, just a single 50-ton maintenance storage bay (+400 MSP) will cover the difference and leave us with 32 HS left over that we saved on fuel storage. Of course, that 32 HS of extra components could also increase maintenance requirements over the cost of fuel storage, so the 2-engine ship might look "even more expensive" but it is also performing better with another 32 HS of weapons, shields, or whatever.

Of course if we had only looked at using engineering spaces to get the same AFR%, we would have needed a lot more than 1 HS (though not as much as double, since the other components are about the same), so of course the bigger engines do not look as good in that comparison. But as we have seen it is not the best basis of comparison.

----

It is also worth noting that while 3:1 engine:fuel ratio is theoretically optimal, in practice there are many good reasons to use a different ratio - nearly always higher in terms of engine mass (4:1, 5:1, 10:1, etc.). The main one is fuel conservation, not only to reduce resource use but also to ease logistics as a fleet which uses less fuel is a fleet that is easier to support with tankers or fuel depots at a distance. In practice I think people rarely use 3:1 outside of theorycrafting exercises because of this factor. Usually, it is better to think of 3:1 as a limit rather than a rule. If you use a higher ratio of engine size, the resulting ship design is slightly less efficient but you will conserve fuel better. However, if you use a lower ratio of engine size, say 2:1, then there is no benefit - the design is still inefficient, but you are also consuming excessive fuel. Basically, it is fine to have more engine size versus fuel size than a 3:1 ratio, but almost never is it a good idea to have less than 3:1.

The other thing to consider is that engines with less than 1.0x engine power modifier have an additional cost reduction by that modifier. That is, while an engine with (say) a 1.5x modifier will cost 1.5x as much as an engine with 1.0x modifier of the same size, an engine with (say) 0.5x multiplier costs only 0.25x as much as an engine with 1.0x modifier of the same size. This means that very large engines with sub-1.0x efficiency can become very cost-effective since the repair cost (in MSP) is the same as the build cost (in BP), in addition to the benefits of fuel efficiency. Of course this comes at a performance cost as you will need quite large engines to achieve a desired speed, you will likely be looking at quite large engine:fuel ratios which does take away space you could use for weapons, sensors, etc.

What this means for ship design ultimately is that you need to look at the whole picture - balancing build cost, maintenance life, fuel efficiency, and per-ton performance to get the best ship for your race-wide strategic situation. I will say that usually it is not the best approach to think about optimizing tonnage, usually the actual costs of a ship in build, research, fueling, and maintenance costs are much more important limiting factors. You may be able to take a 18,000-ton warship design and instead create a design with the same capabilities on a 20,000-ton hull which has the same build cost due to using cheaper engines (say 90% efficiency instead of 100%), but uses only 85% as much fuel to achieve the same operating range. The only importance of tonnage is the effect on your shipyards, as you do not want to overbuild your yards and tie up excess population, but usually you can be pretty flexible on tonnage if you are willing to think a bit outside of the box.


For most warships, I think, engines are not a very large portion of the cost.

This is not really correct, I'd say engines make up 30% or 40% of the cost of a warship as a general rule, which is usually if not the largest fraction of component cost in the top 2-3 for most ships. I think the only other component type that can reliably make up a greater fraction of the cost than the engines is a large military jump drive.


This is unlikely to have a clean solution to this problem. As the engineering spaces required to keep a ship at a certain maintenance life depend on not only the size of the ship but also the total cost of the ship.

To quote ancient Jaffa wisdom: indeed.
 
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Offline Iceranger

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2022, 11:51:58 AM »

That being said, we can evaluate the maintenance cost of engines fairly independently at a less abstract level. Consider two engine sections of the same size and therefore total DAC%, let's say that one engine section has 8x size-25 INPE engines (cost 125, HTK 5) and the other has 2x size-100 INPE engines (cost 500, HTK 10) - for right now we will ignore the difference in resulting fuel range. The 8-engine section has DAC% chance to roll a 'hit' on a maintenance failure, and once hit has a 40% chance (2 damage / 5 HTK) to suffer an engine failure requiring 125 MSP to repair; the expected cost is therefore 50 MSP every time the engine section is targeted. On the other hand, the 2-engine section once hit has a 20% chance (2 damage / 10 HTK) to suffer a failure requiring 500 MSP to repair, costing 100 MSP on average when the engine section is targeted.

So the smaller engines are better right? Well, not necessarily. As skoormit suggested, the solution here is in part that we need to look at both engineering spaces and maintenance storage solutions. Assuming that the ship has the same size (say, 600 HS or 30k tons), we can achieve a specific AFR% for a specific number of engineering spaces (say, 24 engineering spaces for 300% nominal AFR). Now consider a balance of fuel and MSP spaces. For the 8-engine section, if we suppose that we need 1/3 as much fuel as engines we have about 66 HS of fuel storage. For the 2-engine section, since fuel efficiency scales with SQRT(engine_HS), we only need half as much fuel to achieve the same range, some 33 HS of fuel. The larger engines do cost twice as much in maintenance requirements, but at the above calculated 100 MSP per engine failure roll compared to 50 MSP for the 8-engine section, just a single 50-ton maintenance storage bay (+400 MSP) will cover the difference and leave us with 32 HS left over that we saved on fuel storage. Of course, that 32 HS of extra components could also increase maintenance requirements over the cost of fuel storage, so the 2-engine ship might look "even more expensive" but it is also performing better with another 32 HS of weapons, shields, or whatever.


I'm pretty sure in C# maintenance failure just rolls the DAC chart to find a component and simply tries to destroy it regardless of its HTK. If there are enough MSP to instantly repair it, then it is repaired and MSP consumed. Otherwise, the component is destroyed. Sauce: in my ship/missile tool I calculate AFR, IFR and maintenance life, and they match what is shown in-game :)

Assuming fixed ship size and ship speed (the assumption in the original 3:1 derivation), the total engine power is then fixed. If the engine boost is at or above 1, then the total engine cost will be 0.5x total engine power, which is also fixed. In this case, a smaller engine has an advantage as it is less likely to be hit in the DAC roll (keep in mind the ship size is fixed). However, if the engine boost is below 1, the engine with a smaller engine boost will cost less per EP. In this case, a large engine with a lower boost will be cheaper than a few smaller engines with a higher boost, but it is more likely to be hit in the DAC roll.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 11:54:08 AM by Iceranger »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Optimal Engine to Fuel Ratio
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2022, 12:05:05 PM »
I'm pretty sure in C# maintenance failure just rolls the DAC chart to find a component and simply tries to destroy it regardless of its HTK. If there are enough MSP to instantly repair it, then it is repaired and MSP consumed. Otherwise, the component is destroyed. Sauce: in my ship/missile tool I calculate AFR, IFR and maintenance life, and they match what is shown in-game :)

Thanks for this clarification; that was actually what I thought, but could not find a source so had to refer to the VB6 mechanics which are out of date obviously.

So the numbers change but either way there is a balance between MSP and fuel demand/consumption - so working out the numbers shows pretty certainly that there is no simple, easy answer, and the player must choose based on their own needs and priorities, as we expect.  :)