Author Topic: auto-turns upgrade  (Read 2244 times)

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Offline Deoxy (OP)

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auto-turns upgrade
« on: April 22, 2011, 10:27:14 AM »
While auto-turns is certainly MUCH better than not having it, it still leaves much to be desired.

As a programmer myself, I understand that how things work under the covers is not nearly as simple as it may sound, but if auto-turns already keeps going until an interrupt that affects a player race, I would strongly suggest hiding and "auto-turn-able" turns and simply continuing to "sub-pulse" until the original turn-length the player asks for.

Example: I hit 30 days.  Unless there is an interrupt that affects ME, the next thing I want to see is 30 days.  I don't care that 2 NPRs in a system I haven't discovered yet are fighting, and I don't need to see "last increment" entries for their behaviour.

In fact, giving me those intervening turns can be a source of intelligence, actually, especially if I started the game with no or very few NPRs.  Suddenly, as I enter a system, I get some unexpectedly short "turns"?  Must be an inhabited system...

I can understand that "under the covers", the NPRs have to make decisions, and it works best to handle this, internally, as "turn" events, but this should most certainly be hidden from the player, and with your existing "sub-pulse" mechanism, I don't think it would be very hard.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: auto-turns upgrade
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 08:22:04 PM »

While auto-turns is certainly MUCH better than not having it, it still leaves much to be desired.

As a programmer myself, I understand that how things work under the covers is not nearly as simple as it may sound, but if auto-turns already keeps going until an interrupt that affects a player race, I would strongly suggest hiding and "auto-turn-able" turns and simply continuing to "sub-pulse" until the original turn-length the player asks for.

Example: I hit 30 days.  Unless there is an interrupt that affects ME, the next thing I want to see is 30 days.  I don't care that 2 NPRs in a system I haven't discovered yet are fighting, and I don't need to see "last increment" entries for their behaviour.

In fact, giving me those intervening turns can be a source of intelligence, actually, especially if I started the game with no or very few NPRs.  Suddenly, as I enter a system, I get some unexpectedly short "turns"?  Must be an inhabited system...

I can understand that "under the covers", the NPRs have to make decisions, and it works best to handle this, internally, as "turn" events, but this should most certainly be hidden from the player, and with your existing "sub-pulse" mechanism, I don't think it would be very hard.
Based on my experience, this is one of those ideas that sounds great in principle and is not-so-great in practice :).

The reason is that Aurora is still not perfect :).  In particular, you can still get into situations where you end up taking waaaaaaaay too big a timestep, and end up jumping well into some detection range.  Whenever I see a funny timestep, I do three things:

1)  I do not back up my current DB.  The reason is that if the funny timestep was too big, then I want to have the opportunity to back up to the previous save (typically no more than 4-5 clicks of the advance time button) and go forward with the same orders but a smaller timestep.  If I stomp my backup DB, I've lost that opportunity.

2)  Set the sub-pulse length to 5s, and run a 20 minute update.  If the timestep was too big, then I should see an event right away, and it will be obvious.  If the timestep was ok, then I still want to be running with a small timestep for a while in case the event that caused the interrupt had to do with one of my ships, and something is about to happen in a minute or two.  If I immediately clicked a (typical for me) 1-day increment, then the first timestep would be 30 minutes, which might be too big....

3)  Backup my DB.  Now that I'm (fairly) sure that I'm not suffering from a weirdness associated with 30-minute timesteps, I want to make sure that I can get back to this point.

So yes, seeing a weird timestep tells me that something's probably going on.  But I actually already have a pretty good idea if I've jumped into a system with an NPR - the race generation code takes noticibly longer than the system generation code alone, and mostly I just role-play around the knowledge.

Another problem is needing a "progress meter".  In the old days, there were frequent cases where Aurora would hang during an update.  It's important to know that the reason it's taking 3 hours to advance by a day is that it's churning away 5s timesteps.

John

PS - Please read the "where should I post" FAQ.  In particular, Steve has requested that people put their suggestions and bug reports into the official threads, rather than starting new threads.  The reason is that he uses the official threads as "filing cabinets" - the problem is that once he's read an idea in a non-official thread, it's very difficult for him to find it a few months later when he wants to implement it (since it will be marked as read).

 

Offline Deoxy (OP)

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Re: auto-turns upgrade
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 10:03:23 PM »
Based on my experience, this is one of those ideas that sounds great in principle and is not-so-great in practice :).

The reason is that Aurora is still not perfect :).  In particular, you can still get into situations where you end up taking waaaaaaaay too big a timestep, and end up jumping well into some detection range.  Whenever I see a funny timestep, I do three things:

1)  I do not back up my current DB.  The reason is that if the funny timestep was too big, then I want to have the opportunity to back up to the previous save (typically no more than 4-5 clicks of the advance time button) and go forward with the same orders but a smaller timestep.  If I stomp my backup DB, I've lost that opportunity.

2)  Set the sub-pulse length to 5s, and run a 20 minute update.  If the timestep was too big, then I should see an event right away, and it will be obvious.  If the timestep was ok, then I still want to be running with a small timestep for a while in case the event that caused the interrupt had to do with one of my ships, and something is about to happen in a minute or two.  If I immediately clicked a (typical for me) 1-day increment, then the first timestep would be 30 minutes, which might be too big....

3)  Backup my DB.  Now that I'm (fairly) sure that I'm not suffering from a weirdness associated with 30-minute timesteps, I want to make sure that I can get back to this point.

So yes, seeing a weird timestep tells me that something's probably going on.  But I actually already have a pretty good idea if I've jumped into a system with an NPR - the race generation code takes noticibly longer than the system generation code alone, and mostly I just role-play around the knowledge.

Actually, what you just described is the exact opposite of "role-playing around it" - it's abusing the ever loving CRAP out of it.

Also, that's not quite the issue I was talking about, anyway - if it has to do with MY ships, it will give me a message (or it shouldn't stop early, as I don't have any new message, yet).  If I don't get a message, it's because my sensors haven't picked up anything.  Stopping anyway is either meta-data (I know something because of the way the system handled it) or completely extraneous and annoying (2 NPRs interacting far away).

Another problem is needing a "progress meter".  In the old days, there were frequent cases where Aurora would hang during an update.  It's important to know that the reason it's taking 3 hours to advance by a day is that it's churning away 5s timesteps.

John

PS - Please read the "where should I post" FAQ.  In particular, Steve has requested that people put their suggestions and bug reports into the official threads, rather than starting new threads.  The reason is that he uses the official threads as "filing cabinets" - the problem is that once he's read an idea in a non-official thread, it's very difficult for him to find it a few months later when he wants to implement it (since it will be marked as read).

The "progress meter" idea is a good point - letting the player know that it is just having some kind of "behind the scenes extra work" is a good idea.

As to the "post it in the main thread" idea... well, I tried that with bugs, and if it doesn't happen to catch someone's fancy immediately, it gets lost in the OTHER conversations going and not discussed.  Possibly useful for Steve later, but only for the stuff that actually gets discussed - that is, it's not really very useful for anybody but him, and even then, it inherently limits how useful it might be to him later, as well.

The whole idea of threads is to have a thread for each conversation so they don't step on each other!
 

Offline voknaar

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Re: auto-turns upgrade
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 12:43:08 AM »
Theres also a mark unread button not too far away from reply. I imagine it's feeling a little under used.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: auto-turns upgrade
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 01:54:40 AM »
Actually, what you just described is the exact opposite of "role-playing around it" - it's abusing the ever loving CRAP out of it.

There are two issues here:
1)  Dealing with meta-data about what's going on in the game.  Aurora is full of it.  The biggest source is these boards, and previous games.  The next biggest source is knowing what happens to your exploration ships when they go through a WP - Aurora doesn't have a GM who can tell you "your jump ship went into that unexplored WP and it never came out".  I already mentioned another one.  "Mystery interrupts" is another.  In the case of the boards, I try to design my ships and strategy as I would if I didn't know what I do know about what's out there.  For example, I don't put R001 active sensors on my survey ships (so they can detect the captor mines) until one of my survey ships encounters them (and gets blown away).  Once I know there are aliens out there, I carefully probe each system before survey, even those I know can't have bad guys.  In the case of mystery interrupts, I simply don't change my orders.  Yes it would be better if I didn't have the knowledge at all, but that leads to other difficulties....

2)  Aurora screwing up.  It's a lot better now than it used to be, but it still messes up on guessing how far it should advance time.  This often shows up as a missile salvo showing up 1/2 way into your detection range, or having a contact that's been sitting there disappear in an unknown direction because Aurora doesn't track these things, even though a human watch officer on a picket ship watching said contact would.  In those cases, I back time up and re-run it with a smaller time step without changing my orders.  The other option is to role-play "oh, the watch officer was sleeping and a weird EM surge wiped out the sensor logs so we don't know where they went", which gets old after about the 5th time....

I suspect you thought I was saying that I back up the game so I can change what I did - I don't.  I just do it to pick a better timestep by hand.  For example, I recently had a pair of scout ships watching some precursors.  One of them turned on an active sensor that obviously saw my scouts, 'cuz 5 seconds later they went to full speed in the direction of the scouts.  I gave my scouts orders to run away, and started to do 20 minute updates with 5s sub-pulse size so Aurora would correctly give an event when any missiles they might have shot at me entered range.  In this case, it was real data that caused me to go to 5s updates, but I do the same thing when I get metadata that something's going on.

Quote
Also, that's not quite the issue I was talking about, anyway - if it has to do with MY ships, it will give me a message (or it shouldn't stop early, as I don't have any new message, yet).  If I don't get a message, it's because my sensors haven't picked up anything.  Stopping anyway is either meta-data (I know something because of the way the system handled it) or completely extraneous and annoying (2 NPRs interacting far away).

I agree with everything you say here, and understand that that's what you were talking about.  What I was trying to point out is that fixing the problems you mention can reintroduce other problems that we've had in the past.  In the case of the meta-data, it's the inability to use that meta-data to help Aurora pick the appropriate timestep.  In the case of NPRs slugging it out, it's the lack of a progress meter.

John
 

Offline Deoxy (OP)

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Re: auto-turns upgrade
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011, 09:35:12 PM »
I suspect you thought I was saying that I back up the game so I can change what I did - I don't.  I just do it to pick a better timestep by hand.

<snip>

I agree with everything you say here, and understand that that's what you were talking about.  What I was trying to point out is that fixing the problems you mention can reintroduce other problems that we've had in the past.  In the case of the meta-data, it's the inability to use that meta-data to help Aurora pick the appropriate timestep.  In the case of NPRs slugging it out, it's the lack of a progress meter.

John

Yes, that's what I thought - my apologies.

As to the other part of your comment, I see no reason why my suggestion would make ANYTHING worse - if you're really worried about the cases you mentioned, you can adjust it slightly, such that it still stops when you interact with anything or anything interacts with you, but any interactions that don't involve you at all are still invisible.  I think that's over kill, but it would completely address the issues you brought up and still be a HUGE improvement over the current situation.

The issue that really brought this to a head for me was trying to start a game with several existing NPRs to simulate a more standard 4x game - that is, without several NPRs that could come find you, you could "turtle" forever and never be interrupted until you happened across an NPR.  I haven't even left my home system yet (conventional start), but I've been dealing with constant interruptions for several game years now.  That's just ridiculous.