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Posted by: MarcAFK
« on: February 11, 2016, 10:04:51 AM »

You're absolutely correct.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:49:15 AM »

Edit: After deleting all shipyards and just creating a single yard for each class the build time is now as follows:
Amon: 1 slipway = 38 months, 36 slipways = 47 months.
Amonx6: 1 slipway = 64 months, 6 slipways = 47.5 months.
Amonx36 1 slipway = 68 months

Edit: Once you reach 127,000 naval tons total build rate starts going down across every shipyard.
You lose about 10% build rate for every increase of 127,000 tons of naval, and approxximately 1,270,000 commercial.
You...
I'm pretty sure this is not a bug. Most likely cause in this situation: You do not have enough workers to man the shipyards.
Posted by: bean
« on: February 11, 2016, 09:36:03 AM »

Bha, one should not check sources late at night. I specificity remembered (and checked) that states built ships in the period but missed that those were covered in the treaty as exceptions. Still only applies to capital ships though (yes those others were covered as well in the London treaty some 8 years later).
It happens.  And I'm also aware of the London Treaty.  (First and (aborted) second.)

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Thus the imo. And of course ships and material age. That said, you dont go out and buy a new car just because the radiator is broke. Now yes, there is a bit of a difference between ripping out the boilers of a bb and changing the radiator, but as long as the overall design is not obsolete (as one could argue that for example the Dreadnought class was) it is still far cheaper then building a whole new ship.
Not as much as you'd think.  Changing boilers is a very expensive operation, particularly when it involves cutting open deck armor.   I'll have to see if I can find figures for cost on the refits of the Standards.  Also, ships do become obsolete.  Dreadnought had thin armor, small guns, and a really terrible gun layout.  Few of the ships with guns smaller than 14 inches survived the treaty, and I strongly suspect that the battleships which did survive wouldn't have if they'd been able to be replaced by more modern ships.
Posted by: jem
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:53:49 AM »

From Part 3, Section I:The 10-year holiday (later extended 5 years by the London Naval Treaty) is mentioned in every work on the subject I've ever read. 

Bha, one should not check sources late at night. I specificity remembered (and checked) that states built ships in the period but missed that those were covered in the treaty as exceptions. Still only applies to capital ships though (yes those others were covered as well in the London treaty some 8 years later).

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Reliable sources on this say differently.  The British fleet had been worked very hard during the war.  The USN was in slightly better shape, but there was a reason why almost all of the retained battleships had their machinery replaced.  It was just not possible at the time to make a machinery plant that would last more than 15-20 years.  And real-world refits don't work like they do in Aurora

Thus the imo. And of course ships and material age. That said, you dont go out and buy a new car just because the radiator is broke. Now yes, there is a bit of a difference between ripping out the boilers of a bb and changing the radiator, but as long as the overall design is not obsolete (as one could argue that for example the Dreadnought class was) it is still far cheaper then building a whole new ship.
Posted by: Drgong
« on: February 10, 2016, 11:29:17 PM »

As far as I know that treaty came about because it was bloody expensive to build new ships. And the treaty did not say that you could not build new ships, only how many and how big. Now this had a couple of things to do with the arms race that was going on at the time that none really wanted to pay for, but that was more of navies expanding rather then replacing. And you dont really build a big bb just to throw it away a couple of years later, they are way to expensive for that.

Actually there was a 10 year Moratorium on new construction on battleships.  Sub 10,000 ton cruisers were not restricted.   There was some leeway to replace older ships that were X years old, but most of those were scrapped as part of the fleet reductions. 
Posted by: bean
« on: February 10, 2016, 06:25:32 PM »

It said nothing about building new battle ships (and note that I separate battle ship from battleships). The WNT only limited how many/big/armed and total displacement of capital ships you could have. You were completely free to build new ones if you wanted as long as you removed the old ones. Also the WNT said nothing (apart from individual size of the ship) about battle ships that were not capital ships. The London NT 1 and 2 later placed restrictions on cruisers, destroyers and submarines as well and those restrictions were similar to the ones above (aka size, armament and total displacement of the fleet). Nowhere does it say anything about not building new ships...........................
From Part 3, Section I:
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(a) Capital ships and aircraft carriers twenty years after the date of their completion may, except as otherwise provided in Article VIII and in the tables in Section II of this Part, be replaced by new construction, but within the limits prescribed in Article IV and Article VII. The keels of such new construction may, except as otherwise provided in Article VIII and in the tables in Section II of this Part, be laid down not earlier than seventeen years from the date of completion of the tonnage to be replaced, provided, however, that no capital ship tonnage, with the exception of the ships referred to in the third paragraph of Article II, and the replacement tonnage specifically mentioned in Section II of this Part, shall be laid down until ten years from November 12, 1921.
The 10-year holiday (later extended 5 years by the London Naval Treaty) is mentioned in every work on the subject I've ever read. 

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And I am of the opinion that most of the warships that got decommissioned (and sold for scrap) after ww1 was so because states needed money in a really bad way, not because they were worn out. Obsolete I might agree on, depending on what ship we are talking about, but not worn out. I mean, lets take Dreadnought herself as an example. Commissioned in 1906, decommissioned 1919. During this time she was refit (at least) twice (and do note that this was before the treaty), the last time started just before the end of the war (and just before being decommissioned) when, imo, the UK government realised they needed cash badly and sold here for scrap. I have a hard time believing that she was "worn out" by that time.
Reliable sources on this say differently.  The British fleet had been worked very hard during the war.  The USN was in slightly better shape, but there was a reason why almost all of the retained battleships had their machinery replaced.  It was just not possible at the time to make a machinery plant that would last more than 15-20 years.  And real-world refits don't work like they do in Aurora.  No matter how often you refit, ships still age.
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Fun fact, she is the only battleship to take out a submarine and she did it by ramming ;)
Yes, I was aware of that.  I am also aware of the Bunga Bunga plot where a bunch of fake "Abyssinians" got aboard.
Posted by: jem
« on: February 10, 2016, 06:11:47 PM »

Uhh....
It did say you couldn't build new battleships.  Thus, if you wanted better battleships, you had to make them out of your old ones.  Nobody did big refits on other types of ships, because there was no point in doing so.  It was better to throw the old ones away and build new ones. 

It said nothing about building new battle ships (and note that I separate battle ship from battleships). The WNT only limited how many/big/armed and total displacement of capital ships you could have. You were completely free to build new ones if you wanted as long as you removed the old ones. Also the WNT said nothing (apart from individual size of the ship) about battle ships that were not capital ships. The London NT 1 and 2 later placed restrictions on cruisers, destroyers and submarines as well and those restrictions were similar to the ones above (aka size, armament and total displacement of the fleet). Nowhere does it say anything about not building new ships...........................


And I am of the opinion that most of the warships that got decommissioned (and sold for scrap) after ww1 was so because states needed money in a really bad way, not because they were worn out. Obsolete I might agree on, depending on what ship we are talking about, but not worn out. I mean, lets take Dreadnought herself as an example. Commissioned in 1906, decommissioned 1919. During this time she was refit (at least) twice (and do note that this was before the treaty), the last time started just before the end of the war (and just before being decommissioned) when, imo, the UK government realised they needed cash badly and sold here for scrap. I have a hard time believing that she was "worn out" by that time. Fun fact, she is the only battleship to take out a submarine and she did it by ramming ;)


Posted by: bean
« on: February 10, 2016, 04:28:25 PM »

As far as I know that treaty came about because it was bloody expensive to build new ships.
That, and the popular perception that the naval arms race contributed to the start of WWI.  Nobody wanted to have a building race, which seemed to be forming before the WNT was signed.

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And the treaty did not say that you could not build new ships, only how many and how big.
Uhh....
It did say you couldn't build new battleships.  Thus, if you wanted better battleships, you had to make them out of your old ones.  Nobody did big refits on other types of ships, because there was no point in doing so.  It was better to throw the old ones away and build new ones. 

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Now this had a couple of things to do with the arms race that was going on at the time that none really wanted to pay for, but that was more of navies expanding rather then replacing. And you dont really build a big bb just to throw it away a couple of years later, they are way to expensive for that.
Not really.  The service life of a warship was a lot shorter back then.  The early dreadnoughts were worn out by the end of the war, and they were maybe 15 years old.  They'd have been headed into reserve anyway, if the treaty hadn't sent them to the scrapyard instead.  For another example, take the flush-deckers.  The ones that survived into WWII were about 20 years old, and had pretty much all spent significant time in reserve.  The ones that didn't spend time in reserve had been scrapped because they were worn out.  It's often cheaper in the long run to build a new ship than to upgrade an existing one (something politicians today have trouble understanding), but it was the way of things back then.  Also, design art was evolving a lot faster back then than it is today, which meant that ships became functionally obsolete much more quickly.
Posted by: jem
« on: February 10, 2016, 03:59:43 PM »

This is very correct.   Under the Naval accords they could not build new ships, so they rebuilt old ones.  If they could build and replace they would of built and replace.


As far as I know that treaty came about because it was bloody expensive to build new ships. And the treaty did not say that you could not build new ships, only how many and how big. Now this had a couple of things to do with the arms race that was going on at the time that none really wanted to pay for, but that was more of navies expanding rather then replacing. And you dont really build a big bb just to throw it away a couple of years later, they are way to expensive for that.
Posted by: Drgong
« on: February 10, 2016, 02:26:06 PM »

The same was done to some of the USN battleships during the 20s.  However, that armor was non-structural, and doing so was very expensive.  Which is why it wasn't done more.  They were rebuilding ships because they weren't allowed to build new ones, not because it was the best solution overall.

This is very correct.   Under the Naval accords they could not build new ships, so they rebuilt old ones.  If they could build and replace they would of built and replace.

Due to the increased flexibility of smaller ships, other then the RP or sheer giggles of having a deathstar floating around to devastate worlds, you are generally better off IMO (Which is not that great in this game) to have a fleet of smaller ships, as if anything, you are not tethered to one yard for building and maintenance.   Also, if you can build 2 big ships, or 20 smaller ships, and in combat by missles or mesons you have 10% damage.  In the 20 ship fleet you will have more then one spot to do repairs, even if you lost your fleet ships they will be quicker to be replaced and still have 90% of your fleet in operation.   If one of your big ships gets damaged, you have to deal with it by shipping it far away, and while it being repaired for 10% damage (assuming you have a yard big enough open to fix it) you have 50% of your fleet not in operation.   

Also putting too many eggs in a few ships means that if you have issues in more then one spot your super-deathstar can't be there in one time and you can lose hole systems, while a smaller ship navy can at least hold the line till reinforcements come.
Posted by: bean
« on: February 10, 2016, 09:34:54 AM »

For the record re-increased armour protection you should look at the Italian Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria Battleship classes. They were rebuilt into what amounted to totally new ships including upgraded armour protection. Even the RN Queen Elizabeth class had additional deck armour added and the Hood's armour was due to be upgraded had the war not intervened.
The same was done to some of the USN battleships during the 20s.  However, that armor was non-structural, and doing so was very expensive.  Which is why it wasn't done more.  They were rebuilding ships because they weren't allowed to build new ones, not because it was the best solution overall.
Posted by: MarcAFK
« on: February 10, 2016, 09:25:38 AM »

It takes about 25 years to expand a yard large enough for that ship, and 48,000 neutronium and duranium to upgrade it.
The yard itself requires 41 million people to run too.
Of course a yard with smaller slipways but equal total tonnage costs exactly the same to build and run, but ships built from that will be made slightly faster.
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: February 10, 2016, 08:15:45 AM »

To give a quick example of the maintenance argument here are the figures using those three ships posted above.

1. The 11kt ship needs 55 facilities costing.
8250BP
4125 Duranium/Nutronium
2.5m workers

2. The 66kt ship needs
49500BP
24750 Duranium/Nutronium
15m workers

3. The 396kt ship needs
297000BP
148500 Duranium/Nutronium
90m workers

If you were to assume a mid level construction rate of 30 then to build enough maintenance in a the two years it takes to build as the above design example for those ships you need the following number of construction factories on a planet.
138 & 6.9m workers
825 & 41m workers
4950 & 240m workers

Also consider the mineral needs to build the final amount of maintenance facilities is pretty much the entire contents of a good comet.
Posted by: Mor
« on: February 10, 2016, 08:07:01 AM »

@Rich.h. Modern militaries commonly employ major designs, which go through modifications over its service life, and eventually are supplanted by a future, vastly different design. This suggestion is natural extension of Aurora upgrade system that tries to take that in to account. Our upgrade system include three elements:

  • The first are the "basic/core" components which has no upgrades or will upgrade immediately when the background tech is researched, with no cost, and no requirement to go to port. I imagine those as things can be handled by the crew like software updates or things made available with basic maintenance supplies. (unchanged)
  • The second are "design" components these need to be designed, prototyped and installed when the ship is in port. Limited internal system upgrades can affected in the original slipway, cost considerably less than building a new ship, but take more time. I imagine those as modular compartments replacement install a higher res radar, outfit a turret, etc (unchanged)
  • The last is hull armor retrofit which is a fundamental change to the ship structure, not a paint job. These should be a substantial undertaking that cost resources based on the size of the project.(changed)

Right now with miniaturization, ever expanding shipyard capacity, and no diminishing returns to building bigger (Which I suspect that NPR generation don't take into account) its a system with only upsides that doesn't encourage verity. Also you can keep retrofitting the same ship from "wood" to super duper technobuble tech over the course of centuries.

This suggestion offer the same, but offer more options by making smaller ship more economically viable long term.  Its realistic, its great from RP stand point (older capitals with newer escorts), and most of all for you its non-intrusive i.e. Since hull armor retrofit aren't that common, this sort of ship upgrade system would have a single design live for quite a long time; Unlike overhauls, it requires no endless micromanagement; and it offers no hard limits, only little thinking and planing. So your emperor can still build his megalomaniac projects and upgrade, at a cost.

p.s. Sorry had no time to read all the post since, or make more than this quick reply. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

Edited.
Btw, people please don't forget its not about the economical constraints of big fleets, but whether a person with the same industrial capacity is better investing resources in either building 400kt shipyards\ships or twice as many 200kt shipyards\ships, for example.
Posted by: 83athom
« on: February 10, 2016, 07:04:21 AM »

However that does not mean the ship can absorb twice as much punishment as two small ships! It still has the same thickness of armor, so the same weapon can get through it, and if it's hit by 2x as heavy fire it will be destroyed quicker since the fire becomes 60% more concentrated ( less then 2x as many armor columns so much bigger chance for 2 shots to hit the same place then if fire was spread equally on the two small ships ).
However, damage is usually spread out more across the hull. While, yes it has the same thickness, the rng will spread that damage out. While the small ships have more armor overall, they will both start taking internal damage before the large ship. I have tested this out quite a bit. One of my posts in the 'whats going on in your battlefield' showed the results of building a big scout ship that encountered an enemy, getting all of its armor striped off from battle, yet it only took 1 - 2 hits of internal.
And please stop claiming maintenance of large ship is the same as small ones. You need absolutely massive maintenance facilities and shipyards with many millions of workers on your planets to support massive ships. This is a huge extra cost for huge ships.

Claiming large ships have the same maintenance, support and logistics needs as small just makes you look silly. This game is not all about the ship stats.
While yes, they do need a lot more maintenance facilities to maintain them, it usually doesn't take that long or costs that much to build them up enough.
If this game had multiplayer and you could play competitively it's easy to prove how useless big ships are. The player aiming for small ships can quickly build up and refit his shipyards and has cranked out 50 ships and 10 times as much tonnage by the time the big shipyard has launched the first ship. And from there it becomes worse because now a new level of techs has been researched, and the player with big ships can either stick building obsolete stuff or send the only huge shipyard back to re-tooling for years, while the player with small ships can retool quickly and happily keep pumping out larger volumes of upgraded ships that hit the battlefield faster and with more tonnage.
True, however it is also true that in Supreme Commander FAF a t1 bot spam will usually overrun an enemy and destroy them in the first few minutes.
And randomness also favors the smaller ships. All it takes is one unlucky hit and the big ship goes boom, while with 50+ small ships they are expendable, and magazine explosions change little or nothing since the ships are often lost on first salvo when under fire by bigger guns anyways.
Incorrect. I've actually had filled missile racks and p-gens go boom in the middle of a fight in some of my large ships. To something big, it hardly notices them. They have thousands of internal HP so they can take quite a bit of internal punishment from their own components that go boom.