Author Topic: Ships of TATO  (Read 6315 times)

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Offline SteelChicken

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2014, 07:47:53 AM »
Yep, that turret is near useless.  Put a better fire control on it.
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2014, 08:55:24 AM »
Quote from: clement link=topic=7309. msg74309#msg74309 date=1404069365
On the Bismark I suggest having more than one reactor as your energy source for the rail guns.  If that reactor gets knocked out all of your rail guns are down until it is back on line.  When allocating reactors to power energy weapons I make sure to have multiple reactors so that if some of them get knocked off line my guns can keep firing.  Also I believe it should lower the individual repair costs for a reactor.  I generally have 1 reactor per 2 weapons assuming my power technology is able to handle that.

Sorry, there is two.  One is a stellerator fusion reactor, the other is a newly developed tokamak fusion reactor.  I may look at putting more on, but then I'll need more engines and more fuel storage to counteract the added weight and I'm not terribly good at balancing it all out! :P

As for people's concerns, here's the quad gauss cannon turret with a new Fire Control;
Code: [Select]
Quad ABGS-42(F)  Compact Gauss Cannon Turret (4x12)    Range 30 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 24-25000 H30 (2)    Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

I've also decided to be brave and show an offensive missile-armed ship designed to go with the carrier groups.  It's showing three different missiles because I wasn't happy with any of them and I'd unlocked laser heads by then (I admit only to being an Honorverse fan).  Both the 'Anaconda' missiles are conventional ones, with the 'Flechette' being a laserhead with four beams.

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Rhine class Missile Destroyer    15 400 tons     344 Crew     3491.8 BP      TCS 308  TH 172.8  EM 0
2337 km/s     Armour 4-55     Shields 0-0     Sensors 140/56/0/0     Damage Control Rating 21     PPV 46.36
Maint Life 0.55 Years     MSP 2142    AFR 1897%    IFR 26.4%    1YR 3915    5YR 58728    Max Repair 720 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 1880   

360 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 360    Fuel Use 35%    Signature 86.4    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres    Range 33.4 billion km   (165 days at full power)

Quad ABGS-42(F)  Compact Gauss Cannon Turret (2x12)    Range 30 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 24-25000 H30 (1)    Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

Size 20 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 20    Rate of Fire 120
Missile Fire Control FC1944-R100 (30%) (1)     Range 1 944.0m km    Resolution 100
AshM-43(S) 'Anaconda' (50)  Speed: 12 000 km/s   End: 1.7d    Range: 1800m km   WH: 9    Size: 20    TH: 48/28/14
AshM-43A(S) 'Anaconda' (40)  Speed: 8 000 km/s   End: 8.3d    Range: 5760m km   WH: 18    Size: 20    TH: 37/22/11
AshM-46(S) 'Flechette' (4)  Speed: 8 000 km/s   End: 5.2d    Range: 3600m km   WH: 7    Size: 20    TH: 40/24/12

Active Search Sensor MR121-R60 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 121.5m km    Resolution 60
Thermal Sensor TH10-140 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 140     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  140m km
EM Detection Sensor EM4-56 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 56     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  56m km

ECCM-3 (1)         ECM 30
 

Offline Black

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2014, 10:06:24 AM »
You need more powerfull engine for your ASMs, they are very slow. Increase engine power modifier.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2014, 10:25:47 AM »
Your missiles all go at least twice as far as their fire control.  But you can't target anything beyond fire control range, so thats around 900 million km worth of fuel you're wasting.  You should consider using a higher engine power modifier, and trading some fuel for some agility.
 

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2014, 11:36:43 AM »
It is more common to have smaller ASM of size 4-6 and work with large salvos. If you want to have large missiles you should equip them with armor so they can survive enemy AMM fire.
 

Offline DuraniumCowboy

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2014, 06:52:02 AM »
I copied a bunch of folks and use size 5 and size 2 missile launchers.  Now that I have decent engines, I am just fielding size 1 Light Counter Missiles (LCM's) now.

Another point though I would recommend for a large size missile would be to use a 2 stage concept.  My current Capital ASM's (CASM's) are fired only from PDC's, but they basically carry 3 of my Light Attack missiles as their second stage.  Bigger missiles not counting speed issues, are also easier for fire controls to track.  Using a second stage that separates at the edge of enemy AMM range and then provides multiple, fast terminal attack packages is a good way to improve your performance, not only more numerous and harder to hit, but added speed increases to hit %'s as well.

Also, I do use large launchers for mines.  I use a size 24 frame, but you could probably put some decent mines together at 20 MSP.  That's a good potentially secondary mission for the large launchers you have.
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2014, 07:10:01 AM »
Thanks guys.  When I get to the PC I'll tinker with the specs some and post the results here.  For what it's worth though, are laserheads as advantageous over regular missiles in Aurora as they are in say, Weber's Honorverse?
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2014, 08:48:28 AM »
Thanks guys.  When I get to the PC I'll tinker with the specs some and post the results here.  For what it's worth though, are laserheads as advantageous over regular missiles in Aurora as they are in say, Weber's Honorverse?

Not the same.  They are a tech that Steve introduced and then never really refined.  IIRC, there are some game play issues with them.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2014, 08:24:53 AM »
Following a recent, uh, 'mishap' which you can see in the 'What's happening in your. . . ' thread, I think I'm going to have to seriously uparmour my magazines and look into energy-weapon armed ships to replace the various railguns I use.
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2014, 04:19:48 PM »
This is a hefty post for people's information, so I've split it into two; this part deals with the carrier and the various light craft it carries, while the second part will deal with mainstream warships.

Military Space Vessels of The Atlantic Treaty Organisation - 2096 (Part 1)

Following the tragic loss of AMS Nimitz during the First Battle of Alpha Centauri in 2063 due to a catastrophic magazine explosion, a decision was made to delay any further construction of more of the class until significant design changes were made. Among them was the decision to remove the flag bridge due to its unnecessary use of tonnage better allocated to magazine or hanger capacity, and the design of the dedicated Mountain-class Command Ship. Among the wreckage recovered was remnants of what were quickly identified as internal fusion drives. Following back-engineering and the construction of the new standard 600EP Internal Fusion Drive, the design was revamped with four of them, with AMS Jellicoe being refit in 2065. Other considerations for the design included the expansion of the on-board fuel reserves by 300% to allow for enhanced cruising range as well as refuelling the onboard parasite complement. Defensive measures were taken with the addition of armoured and higher-capacity magazines for the same on-board parasite complement, allowing for five full reloads for the onboard F-44 and B-104 light space craft.

It was also decided to reduce the squadron sizes of all light craft from eight to six. This new formation allows the carrier to retain an identical number of squadrons of light craft while reducing the necessary hanger space required. Further alterations were made following the Tau Ceti skirmishes when a flight of 1000-ton spacecraft opened fire with missile volleys which only dedicated amounts of counter-missiles and point-defence gauss cannons intercepted. Until that event, the idea of another polity adopting the idea of missile armed strike craft had until then existed as nothing more than a possibility in the minds of Orbital Command's main theorists, but the potential of the TLMS-PD (S) Mk 1 as a defensive weapon was noted with two added on. The space magazine capacity was used to store another one-hundred and twelve (112) of the CM-42B (S) ‘Martyr’s.

Ships in Service;

AMS Jellicoe

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Nimitz class Light Carrier    46 500 tons     423 Crew     7223 BP      TCS 930  TH 288  EM 0
2580 km/s     Armour 4-115     Shields 0-0     Sensors 140/56/0/0     Damage Control Rating 24     PPV 27.96
Maint Life 0.19 Years     MSP 4388    AFR 4324%    IFR 60.1%    1YR 23684    5YR 355265    Max Repair 750 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Flight Crew Berths 234    
Hangar Deck Capacity 10000 tons     Magazine 1082    

600 EP Internal Fusion Drive (4)    Power 600    Fuel Use 28%    Signature 72    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 20 000 000 Litres    Range 276.4 billion km   (1240 days at full power)

Quad ABGS-42(F)  Compact Gauss Cannon Turret (4x12)    Range 30 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 24-25000 H30 (2)    Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

TLMS-PD (S) Mk 1 (2)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
CIWS-M FC42 Mk1 Mod1 (1)     Range 35.3m km    Resolution 1
AAM-25B 'Super Rippler' (360)  Speed: 30 000 km/s   End: 14.8m    Range: 26.7m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 260/156/78
AshM-82(B) 'Tyrant II' (120)  Speed: 16 000 km/s   End: 886.3m    Range: 850.9m km   WH: 12    Size: 5    TH: 160/96/48
CM-42B (S) ‘Martyr’ (112) Speed: 24 000 km/s   End: 24m    Range: 34.0m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 320/192/96

Active Search Sensor MR121-R60 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 121.5m km    Resolution 60
Thermal Sensor TH10-140 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 140     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  140m km
EM Detection Sensor EM4-56 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 56     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  56m km

Strike Group
12x B-104 'Rhino' Strikefighter   Speed: 14285 km/s    Size: 5.6
12x F-54 'Wavefront' Interceptor   Speed: 19047 km/s    Size: 4.2
18x F-44 'Buffalo' Fighter   Speed: 19512 km/s    Size: 4.1
1x EA-6 'Sentry' Early Warning Craft   Speed: 9756 km/s    Size: 8.2

The F-44 benefited from the newly-acquired internal-confinement fusion drives, with a single such drive mounted to replace the older ion drives and driving the speed up by around 7000 more kilometres per second. Despite this new-found speed advantage over even the F-54, it has been decided to draw down the numbers of F-44's in circulation and instead issue them to the proposed new Dowding-class Air Landing Facilities which will provide localised air support for TATO colonies.

Code: [Select]
F-44 'Buffalo' class Fighter    205 tons     2 Crew     158.4 BP      TCS 4.1  TH 9.6  EM 0
19512 km/s     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.6
Maint Life 10.16 Years     MSP 48    AFR 3%    IFR 0%    1YR 1    5YR 13    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 8    
Magazine 4    

80 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1)    Power 80    Fuel Use 221.75%    Signature 9.599999    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 2.0 billion km   (28 hours at full power)

F-Series AAMP (4)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
F-Series M-FireCon Mk 2 (1)     Range 11.8m km    Resolution 1
AAM-25B 'Super Rippler' (4)  Speed: 30 000 km/s   End: 14.8m    Range: 26.7m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 260/156/78

Following the Tau Ceti Skirmishes, the conclusion of Orbital Command's Fighter and Operations departments is that the concept of the B-104 has been validated. As seen, the ships of the 'Union of Tau' clearly possess their own light craft all of which were armed with multiple launchers, presumably of the same compact size as those of the 'Rhino' given the identical size in warheads. Following the examination of a 'Mikuma'-class wreck and the recovery of what are undoubtedly nuclear-pulse engines, it is believed the AshM-22(B) and AshM-22A(B) would suffice for combat operations, but the improved AshM-82(B) 'Tyrant II' is ready for production, with plans to establish ordnance facilities in the YZ Ceti System.

Code: [Select]
B-104 'Rhino' class Strikefighter    280 tons     2 Crew     178.5 BP      TCS 5.6  TH 9.6  EM 0
14285 km/s     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 1.5
Maint Life 6.04 Years     MSP 40    AFR 6%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 2    5YR 28    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 8    
Magazine 10    

80 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1)    Power 80    Fuel Use 221.75%    Signature 9.599999    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.4 billion km   (28 hours at full power)

Size 5 Box Launcher (2)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
B-Series M-FireCon (1)     Range 52.6m km    Resolution 20
AShM-22 'Tyrant' (2)  Speed: 12 000 km/s   End: 37.1m    Range: 26.7m km   WH: 18    Size: 5    TH: 72/43/21

Small Craft ECCM-1 (1)

Following the decision to re-examine the ordnance situation dictated by TATO's initial reliance on missile armed light craft, it was decided to push ahead with the next version of the F-54 mounting the new 80EP Internal Fusion Engine. It is anticipated that the next revision of the Nimitz-type airwing will see removal of all F-44's in favour of the F-54's. Attempts to construct small railguns and lasers for use on the F-54 chassis have proven less than successful.

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F-54 'Wavefront' class Interceptor    210 tons     2 Crew     149 BP      TCS 4.2  TH 9.6  EM 0
19047 km/s     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.5
Maint Life 7.94 Years     MSP 44    AFR 3%    IFR 0%    1YR 1    5YR 19    Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 8    

80 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1)    Power 80    Fuel Use 221.75%    Signature 9.599999    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.9 billion km   (28 hours at full power)

ABGS-42(F)  Compact Gauss Cannon (1x3)    Range 30 000km     TS: 19047 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 8%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
F-Series KEW FireCon Mk1 Mod1 (1)    Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

As with most other light craft, the EA-6 benefited from the same internal fusion engine. The ECCM suite accidentally added on by a careless design team member was deleted in future production craft and replaced with an ECM suite for protection against enemy strikecraft. Further revisions of the EA-6 and carrier airwings may see the design equipped with CIWS to provide protection against enemy missiles and provide an additional layer of interception for long-range enemy fire directed at the home-carrier, as well as more EA-6's being shipped aboard.

Code: [Select]
EA-6 'Sentry' class Early Warning Craft    410 tons     9 Crew     246.5 BP      TCS 8.2  TH 9.6  EM 0
9756 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
Maint Life 28.22 Years     MSP 376    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 1    5YR 14    Max Repair 112 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.5 months    Spare Berths 3    

80 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1)    Power 80    Fuel Use 221.75%    Signature 9.599999    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 10 000 Litres    Range 2.0 billion km   (56 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor MR121-R60 (1)     GPS 6720     Range 121.5m km    Resolution 60

ECM 10
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 04:30:26 PM by Viridia »
 

Offline Veneke

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 12:26:20 AM »
Nimitz

I'm not sure I fully follow how the carrier fleet is meant to work.   It has, to my eyes, very odd maintenance life, deployment time, and fuel capacity. 

At a minimum I aim for my carriers to be able to fully re-equip their squadrons for every two months of deployment time.   I rarely see it necessary to equip them with more than twice for every month of deployment.   So if I want a carrier to be able to be deployed for 6 months then it should be able to fully refuel and rearm it's entire complement at least three times, and at most twelve.   Regardless of the option I pick, everything is designed around that maximum engagement potential.   Right now though your carrier can only be on station for ~2 months despite having a refueling capacity for its combat wing for ~89 engagements* with a rearmament capacity of only 5 engagements for it's missile armed fighter craft.  ^ I think you're okay on missiles but you're carrying way too much fuel.   Unless the Nimitz is meant to act as a fleet tanker for support ships? Personally I'd suggest having a dedicated tanker and/or fleet support vessel for that, but there's nothing wrong with combining the roles.   However, maintenance life is still a problem no matter what's decided about its tanking capabilities. 

* Total fuel consumption of your entire wing (all 43 craft) is ~220k.   I assume an engagement lasts exactly 28 hours.   Invariably there'll be shorter ones and longer ones, but let's assume total exhaustion per engagement as a baseline.   I also assume that the Nimitz only uses fuel for 6 months (which is the intended deployment time), and undertakes no other tanker operations. 
^ Total missile consumption of the Buffalo complement is 72 missiles, and the Rhino is 24.   With stocks of 360 and 120 both divide nicely down to 5.   With a maximum deployment time of six months this should be fine.   I wouldn't advance with this carrier too far though, not without an ample number of colliers bringing missiles up to the front.   

If you're going for 5 engagements over a six month deployment I'd recommend altering your fuel capacity to ~4. 5 million.   That'll give you five full fuel resupplies on your fighter complement (1. 1 million), give the Nimitz enough fuel for six months (2. 95m), and leave you with a couple hundred k reserve for emergencies (495k).   Obviously if it's the fleet tanker you'll need to adjust those numbers, but 20 million fuel is a massive investment; and I can't see why you'd take that risk.   The extra space would be better used to up maintenance life, or add more armour.   I prefer my ships built to withstand absurd levels of punishment (15+ layers of armour on a capital ship), but provided you know what you're doing less armour isn't a big deal. 

You only need 93 spare berths on the Nimitz.   If you want spare to take survivors (I don't think it matters, but I like to include spares anyway) then that's fair enough.   You could probably reduce to 150 spare berths to save on space though. 

I know the thread seems to suggest that Gauss was the way to go.   Honestly though, I think CIWS is the better option for this, particular, carrier.   My thinking is that given its relatively low armour/shield levels this isn't a carrier I'd expect to see near the front, much less providing covering fire for a fleet.   If the Nimitz is called upon to give supporting fire then it is too close to the action and you've either made a pretty significant mistake (given the amount of fuel it's carrying), or your design is lacking in armour.   CIWS is good personal protection for a ship that isn't likely to see combat directly.   Gauss Cannons and the like are better suited to support ships between the carrier and the enemy. 


Fighters

I'd also replace the Tyrant missile on the Rhino with the Tyrant II, it's a far superior missile.   Given the short range of the Tyrant I would consider stripping the Rhino down dramatically.   It needs to move to within 1mkm to launch, so it either needs to be your fastest fighter or you need a more long-ranged version of the Tyrant.   Also, are you putting engineering spaces on your fighters? Pull them.   They've an engagement time measured in the hours.   They'll die or be recovered before they break down. 

You don't need magazines on your light craft if they're mounting box launchers.   The missiles are already in the tubes, and you can't reload box launchers except on a carrier or on a planet anyway. 

You may want to consider an expanded scouting complement, and potentially even remove the sensors from the Nimitz altogether.   The EA-6 has as good an active sensor as the carrier, and it has the added advantage that it won't give away the position of such an important vessel by turning its active sensor on.   I'd suggest three EA variants; active, thermal, and EM.   Put half a dozen (two of each) on the Nimitz.   I like to RP a little, and by the looks of it so do you, so I'd suggest (purely on the basis of RP - it isn't necessary) that a much smaller thermal and EM sensors are included on the Nimitz instead purely for navigational assistance.   I'd stress, again, however, that this isn't necessary. 

Have you tested the F-54? I tried anti-missile laser-based fighter wings before, and found box-launchers from fighters were far more effective.   Unless combat testing or ordnance manufacturing capabilities suggests otherwise, I wouldn't be so quick to retire the F-44 to local defence duties. 


I'm really liking the designs, especially the little bit of background you put into each one. 


Edit: Decimal points man, they're important.  >. <
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:37:24 AM by Veneke »
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2014, 09:12:27 AM »
Hi! I was working on a reply on Thursday when our internet cut out and it's only just been fixed. I've looked at what you said, especially the part about the fuel on the Nimitz-class and the engineering spaces on the fighters, as well as the variants of the EA-6. I must admit to struggling with the latter, since the active sensor on the EA-6 is 250 tons, but the identical-sized thermal and EM detection sensors were already fitted on the Nimitz. Is it worth downgrading the sensors on that to accommodate the creation of the EA-6 variants or should I delete those sensors entirely and rely on the EA-6 complement?
 

Offline Veneke

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2014, 01:43:32 AM »
I wouldn't pull the sensors on existing designs, or ships under construction, but I'd definitely consider updating the design before any new construction began.  It really comes down to whether you are willing to accept an active sensor on such an important ship, and how close you want it to be to the action.  It's a decent sensor, so there's some stand-off capability. 

The EA active variant could get closer, with less risk. . .  There is a problem, however, that if the enemy blows up your two active EAs, unless there are backups within the fleet, you're basically blind.  As it is now, if you lose the active sensor, you've basically lost the ship anyway.

What you could do, is keep the active sensor on the Nimitz as a backup, and have two active EA variants anyway.  That'll give you the best of both worlds.  You'll need to find the space for it, which could be done by reducing the sensor on the Nimitz slightly, reducing the fighter complement (if you drop to 12 Buffalos I think you'll be able to fit 5 more EAs, especially if all of those fighters have their engineering equipment pulled), simply making the Nimitz slightly bigger or whatever.
 

Offline Viridia (OP)

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2014, 08:57:48 AM »
Unfortunately I've had to delete the game due to a never-ending crewmoralecheck error, but I'm going to redo the whole thing from scratch. I'm also debating the value of reduced-size launchers as a representation of VLS cells.
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Ships of TATO
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2014, 09:45:19 AM »
I recommend you use Erik's little tool: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,6121.0.html ..to back up your game files while playing automatically. I had lost two games to similar freezing bugs, but since I use this neat autosave feature I never lost more than maybe 20 minutes again. Rescued myself many times - one of the secrets to be able to play into the 200+ years of a game.
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy