Updating Towed Installations

[Ri0Rdian]

Do you play long games?

Because the last research is 280k liters of fuel produced, so potentially you will mine 140m liters (!!!) of fuel per annum while only having storage for 25m, which means you will need to ship it all off in less than 2 months or you will stop producing.

You could potentially make it a lot smaller (while still being big compared to ships), which would make it easier and cheaper to manufacture as well as transport.



Funny thing is, the one station where size matters the whole time (and probably more for early than late game) is about half the size I would expect (terraformer). Dunno how much you use it ofc, but if you have it you probably do some so doing it faster might be really useful to you in that case.

Also, my best tip for big stations: Don't forget to count in commander bonus, I always forget this one. For such behemoths scaling back a bit to account for that (and still getting your desired result) can save a lot of the cost.


I am not criticising btw, just asking for more explanation in the general design idea!


Edit:
The cargo on orbital miner is a great idea, while yes, normal ship can carry that mass driver, it is much more efficient to do it like you do. Gonna update my design asap, thanks! 

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

Do you play long games?

Because the last research is 280k liters of fuel produced, so potentially you will mine 140m liters (!!!) of fuel per annum while only having storage for 25m, which means you will need to ship it all off in less than 2 months or you will stop producing.

You could potentially make it a lot smaller (while still being big compared to ships), which would make it easier and cheaper to manufacture as well as transport.



Funny thing is, the one station where size matters the whole time (and probably more for early than late game) is about half the size I would expect (terraformer). Dunno how much you use it ofc, but if you have it you probably do some so doing it faster might be really useful to you in that case.

Also, my best tip for big stations: Don't forget to count in commander bonus, I always forget this one. For such behemoths scaling back a bit to account for that (and still getting your desired result) can save a lot of the cost.


I am not criticising btw, just asking for more explanation in the general design idea!


Edit:
The cargo on orbital miner is a great idea, while yes, normal ship can carry that mass driver, it is much more efficient to do it like you do. Gonna update my design asap, thanks! 

I have yet to reach last-tech without using SM mode so it has never come up, but if a 'refuel until full' order ever gets implemented then a two month round trip will be plenty of time for delivery with a reasonable tanker.  *crosses fingers*

I like to get every non-LG world except Venus down to colony cost 0, and have a personal goal of getting Venus itself done some day.  I start with Luna and use the freed up infrastructure as seed for the rest of Sol, then move on to Mercury and Mars before starting on the Jovian moons.  The last couple of games I've started with a 25 module unit, but 50 is what I've done in the past, at the expense of starting with a half-size gas miner and no orbital miner.  While I'd prefer an even 100, 2 million tons is getting too big for a 60k ton tug.  As it is even the #25 can be tricky to park on Mercury.

I'm not certain what you mean about limiting size to take advantage of the commander bonus.  Commanders with good terraforming bonuses aren't exactly common, which is why I go big on these instead of making swarms.  A commander with a 25% bonus on a #50 effectively gives you 12.5 free modules, while on a #100 it would be 25.

The cargo bay is great until the mining site has good enough availability to require multiple mass drivers, but that is just a petty nuisance rather than an actual problem.  I wouldn't even consider them if the break-even point on Automines wasn't so long.

Aside from orbital miners, which take effort to get too many of, I don't like having more than one or two of these working in the same system.  The gas miner should be enough to comfortably supply fuel to an entire sector by itself.

There is nothing wrong with valid criticism.  It is how we improve.

[davidr (OP)]

I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.

If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.

...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.

My orbitals feel cramped at 600k-700k tons, but I like to keep them under 1.5 million.  A shipyard that big is expensive.

Do you put many habitats in it to make them that big?

I haven't built a habitat since VB.

These are what I like to build, but I have to cut them down to half size to afford one of each at game start.  I'd go larger but the tug requirements start adding up.

Code: [Select]

Genesis class Terraformer    1,259,923 tons    5,010 Crew    26,527 BP    TCS 25,198    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s    No Armour    Shields 0-0    HTK 646    Sensors 0/0/0/0    DCR 1    PPV 0
MSP 13    Max Repair 500 MSP
Drengr    Control Rating 1   BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Terraformer: 50 modules producing 0.0125 atm per annum

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes

It takes one of my tankers two trips to unload this thing once per year.

Code: [Select]

Cloud City class Gas Miner    1,385,093 tons    5,010 Crew    19,055.3 BP    TCS 27,702    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s    No Armour    Shields 0-0    HTK 2656    Sensors 0/0/0/0    DCR 1    PPV 0
MSP 8    Max Repair 2400 MSP
Drengr    Control Rating 1   BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Fuel Harvester: 500 modules producing 20,000,000 litres per annum
Refuelling Hub - Capable of refuelling multiple ships simultaneously

Fuel Capacity 25,000,000 Litres    Range N/A

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes

The cargo bay is a convenience feature to move a mass driver, but that could be done by civilians instead.  I'm still debating the merits, since a high yield body might need two of them.  The 100 module unit mini is handy to haul out to distant asteroids or comets.

Code: [Select]

Valhalla Tower class Orbital Miner    1,296,313 tons    12,525 Crew    33,766 BP    TCS 25,926    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s    No Armour    Shields 0-0    HTK 1615    Sensors 0/0/0/0    DCR 1    PPV 0
MSP 16    Max Repair 120 MSP
Cargo 25,000    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1
Drengr    Control Rating 1   BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Orbital Miner: 250 modules producing 2,500 tons per mineral per annum

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes


Spike ,

Please could you give details of the Tug needed to move these 1M plus installations - mine struggle to move 76,000 tons , never mind over 1M

DavidR

[Borealis4x]

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

[skoormit]

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

Spike ,

Please could you give details of the Tug needed to move these 1M plus installations - mine struggle to move 76,000 tons , never mind over 1M

DavidR

This is what I use to move 1m ton stations:

Code: [Select]

Herakles class Tug      62,798 tons       500 Crew       902.7 BP       TCS 1,256    TH 2,400    EM 0
1910 km/s      Armour 1-140       Shields 0-0       HTK 163      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 8    Max Repair 100 MSP
Tractor Beam     
Kaigun-Ch?sa    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

60HS 120EP 3.47L/h (20)    Power 2400    Fuel Use 2.89%    Signature 120    Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 29.7 billion km (180 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

If I'm starting with half-size units then the tug gets cut down as well.

Code: [Select]

Herakles class Tug      31,973 tons       260 Crew       539.7 BP       TCS 639    TH 1,200    EM 0
1876 km/s      Armour 1-89       Shields 0-0       HTK 85      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 10    Max Repair 100 MSP
Tractor Beam     
Kaigun-Ch?sa    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

60HS 120EP 3.47L/h (10)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 2.89%    Signature 120    Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 48.7 billion km (300 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Intercepting fast moving worlds like Mercury takes a little patience to set up and can get annoying when you miss but other than that these work okay.  Stations don't get moved very often so one tug can easily handle a few systems by itself.

[Ri0Rdian]

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. 

[smoelf]

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.

[Ulzgoroth]

One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. 

Should be really simple actually, all the engine math is when you look at it.

Range for a loaded tug should be equal to the unloaded tug's range times the tug mass divided by the combined mass of tug and payload. Just like speed!

[skoormit]

One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. 

So you are using a 100kT tug to move a 2500kT (= 2.5MT) station.
The station is 25x the size of the tug, so when you are moving the station you are using fuel at 26x your normal rate.

So for a round trip of distance D each way, you are spending 26x normal fuel to tow the station there, and 1x normal fuel to tow the station back.
This would be equivalent to spending normal fuel to travel D distance 27 times.
So, divide your tug's range (as reported in the Class Design) by 27.
That's the maximum distance your tug can reach while towing a station, and still have enough fuel to return.

You can increase that operational range by adding some fuel tanks and a refueling module to the station.
On a station of that size, you can add quite a bit of fuel for just a tiny percentage of the cost of the station.
Make sure to mark the station design as a tanker, and give it an appropriate minimum fuel amount. If you otherwise do not intend to use the station for refuelling, make the minimum fuel amount 1 so that it doesn't slurp up fuel every time you build one. Then, each time you build one, give it refuel orders at the planet, and cut it off when it has the fuel you need for this particular towing mission.

[Ri0Rdian]

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.

I usually have 2 of them at most, and I could probably do fine with a single one too (the second one is basically *just in case* and for redundancy).

I like cutting down on micro, which means building BIG. Tugs tie in nicely into this, since even though such tug is expensive, the more stations I get the better value it ends up being. And while my Terraformer might end up being 2.5mt+, he is also about 3-4x bigger than Sorium Harvester and 5 times bigger than orbital Miner, so nothing bigger should ever need tugging. Thankfully 

Edit:
I usually don't use Orbital Habs. If I ever get there (needs long enough game or good conditions for it to happen) it certainly would be much bigger. I remember the 13mt one felt kinda small 

Edit2:
Thanks everyone for the math, I hate math so much appreciated.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. 

In fairness, using SM mode as intended takes some getting used to.  It is a completely different mentality than most games, akin to the GM console mode in some old RPGs like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

90-95% engine is about what a tug should be, with the ratio improving as they get larger.  I just wish that I could turn half of them off when the tug is transiting unloaded to save fuel.

As the others said:  TugRange  * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)

@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight.  That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.

[skoormit]

@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight.  That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.

[skoormit]

As the others said:  TugRange  * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)

That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:

TugRange  * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)

Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.

But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.

That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:

TugRange  * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)

Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)

Point.