Posted by: Erik L
« on: April 20, 2020, 02:49:35 PM »Maybe rename military components to mil-spec or something like that?
Posted by: Pedroig
« on: April 20, 2020, 12:37:04 PM »I see. Confusing terminology is status quo for most games though. I believe in C# there are Civilian shipping lines, which engage in commercial activities. And then there are commercial components, shipyards, and vessels.
Terminology should be Civilian Components, Vessels, and Shipyards, Commercial Shipping Lines. Then Military Components, Vessels, and Shipyards, Governmental Fleets (Military, Exploration, Logistical, Colony, etc.)
C's are used pretty interchangeably in game, though they should be more distinguished from one another. M is fine as is really. It doesn't really matter if the government designs/builds a military part or if a civilian commercial contractor builds a military part.
Terminology should be Civilian Components, Vessels, and Shipyards, Commercial Shipping Lines. Then Military Components, Vessels, and Shipyards, Governmental Fleets (Military, Exploration, Logistical, Colony, etc.)
C's are used pretty interchangeably in game, though they should be more distinguished from one another. M is fine as is really. It doesn't really matter if the government designs/builds a military part or if a civilian commercial contractor builds a military part.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 20, 2020, 12:22:16 PM »Commercial, as I understand it, isn't the same as "Civilian". The civilians use it, but so too does the military.
Correct, but you have your terminology backwards. "Civilian" means "not Military" and describes some engine types and many non-weaponry systems and maintenance requirements and entire hulls that do not include any military components.
"Commercial" -- as in "commercial shipping" -- describes organizations that function to create wealth, and that use entirely civilian (i.e. not military) ships.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people use the two terms interchangeably the vast majority of the time, so it may be too late to try and separate them.
Terms can be confusing:
Commercial projects are different from government projects, civilian projects are different from military projects. It is possible to have a Commercial Military projects just as it is possible to have a Governmental Civilian project.
One can take a civilian platform and turn it into a military platform (The E3 Sentry is just a Boeing 707 with some military hardware on it) or take a military platform and turn it into a civilian platform (though this can be trickier, but for example one can own a tank https://www.drivetanks.com/own-one/ which has been stripped of weapon functionality (Main gun 100% after that one gets into local weapon laws/permits)).
In game there are Commercial and Military Components. A Military vessel may have both installed, a Commercial vessel can only have Commercial Components. Currently Jump Engines are Commercial Components, which can ALWAYS transport the ship it is installed upon, but can ONLY transport other ships with a matching drive engine type. So having a "All Purpose" Jump Tender with both Commercial and Military Jump Engines is possible. (However, I'd like to see such Jump Tenders be like no armour space stations and only allow Commercial components.)
In Aurora-specific terms, we had 'Civilian' components (which only intereacted with maintenance rules at the time) years before we had 'Commercial' shipping lines. Since said lines would build the player's own civilian ship designs, the confusion was probably inevitable.
Posted by: Migi
« on: April 20, 2020, 11:45:58 AM »In game there are Commercial and Military Components. A Military vessel may have both installed, a Commercial vessel can only have Commercial Components. Currently Jump Engines are Commercial Components, which can ALWAYS transport the ship it is installed upon, but can ONLY transport other ships with a matching drive engine type. So having a "All Purpose" Jump Tender with both Commercial and Military Jump Engines is possible. (However, I'd like to see such Jump Tenders be like no armour space stations and only allow Commercial components.)
My plan was to have a civilian engined general purpose jump tender with a military jump engine as well.
My fleet would have a separate jump tender for combat operations with normal fleet speed and extra fuel.
Posted by: Pedroig
« on: April 20, 2020, 11:16:51 AM »Commercial, as I understand it, isn't the same as "Civilian". The civilians use it, but so too does the military.
Correct, but you have your terminology backwards. "Civilian" means "not Military" and describes some engine types and many non-weaponry systems and maintenance requirements and entire hulls that do not include any military components.
"Commercial" -- as in "commercial shipping" -- describes organizations that function to create wealth, and that use entirely civilian (i.e. not military) ships.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people use the two terms interchangeably the vast majority of the time, so it may be too late to try and separate them.
Terms can be confusing:
Commercial projects are different from government projects, civilian projects are different from military projects. It is possible to have a Commercial Military projects just as it is possible to have a Governmental Civilian project.
One can take a civilian platform and turn it into a military platform (The E3 Sentry is just a Boeing 707 with some military hardware on it) or take a military platform and turn it into a civilian platform (though this can be trickier, but for example one can own a tank https://www.drivetanks.com/own-one/ which has been stripped of weapon functionality (Main gun 100% after that one gets into local weapon laws/permits)).
In game there are Commercial and Military Components. A Military vessel may have both installed, a Commercial vessel can only have Commercial Components. Currently Jump Engines are Commercial Components, which can ALWAYS transport the ship it is installed upon, but can ONLY transport other ships with a matching drive engine type. So having a "All Purpose" Jump Tender with both Commercial and Military Jump Engines is possible. (However, I'd like to see such Jump Tenders be like no armour space stations and only allow Commercial components.)
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 20, 2020, 10:26:11 AM »No, I'm not mistaken, because in C# that was changed. And it was reported as a bug, confirmed as a bug and has been squashed since 1.5.3
You're just on an older version, which is fine, but unfortunately I'm not wrong. So my statement on the transports still stands.
It is a bug (Steve said he wasn't really thinking about it and just coded Civ-for-Civ and Mil-for-Mil when writing C# Aurora), it was a bad design choice to leave it that way (i.e. to retro-actively decide it wasn't a bug), and it's ruining my campaigns. It needs to change back.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 20, 2020, 10:19:18 AM »Commercial, as I understand it, isn't the same as "Civilian". The civilians use it, but so too does the military.
Correct, but you have your terminology backwards. "Civilian" means "not Military" and describes some engine types and many non-weaponry systems and maintenance requirements and entire hulls that do not include any military components.
"Commercial" -- as in "commercial shipping" -- describes organizations that function to create wealth, and that use entirely civilian (i.e. not military) ships.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people use the two terms interchangeably the vast majority of the time, so it may be too late to try and separate them.
Posted by: smoelf
« on: April 20, 2020, 08:57:10 AM »That's a shame then, we have to make tankers and ordonance ships with military engines now?
Yoy don't have to - just remember to bring a ship with commercial jump engines for the tankers and colliers.
Posted by: Energyz
« on: April 20, 2020, 08:55:26 AM »That's a shame then, we have to make tankers and ordonance ships with military engines now? 
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: April 20, 2020, 08:02:15 AM »No, I'm not mistaken, because in C# that was changed. And it was reported as a bug, confirmed as a bug and has been squashed since 1.5.3
You're just on an older version, which is fine, but unfortunately I'm not wrong. So my statement on the transports still stands.
You're just on an older version, which is fine, but unfortunately I'm not wrong. So my statement on the transports still stands.
Posted by: Energyz
« on: April 20, 2020, 07:06:37 AM »No, you're just mistaken.
From the VB6 wiki :
Military jump engines are smaller in size and suffer no penalty to max jump squadron size, with more efficient use of size. Civilian jump engines make less efficient use of size and significantly larger overall, but can jump larger ships than military version (10x higher Max Ship Size than military). Civilian drives are less costly, but their max jump squadron size is penalized by one.
Additionally a ship whose non-jump engines are flagged as military cannot transit a jump point using a wormhole generated by a commercial jump drive. Military engines create instabilities in the wormhole stabilization field generated by a commercial jump drive and collapse it. On the other hand, commercial-engined ships can transit a wormhole opened by a military jump drive, but this scenario is pretty rare. Military jump drives tend to only support smaller ships, and ships with commercial engines tend to be larger than the capabilities of the military jump drive.
http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Jump_drive
From the VB6 wiki :
Military jump engines are smaller in size and suffer no penalty to max jump squadron size, with more efficient use of size. Civilian jump engines make less efficient use of size and significantly larger overall, but can jump larger ships than military version (10x higher Max Ship Size than military). Civilian drives are less costly, but their max jump squadron size is penalized by one.
Additionally a ship whose non-jump engines are flagged as military cannot transit a jump point using a wormhole generated by a commercial jump drive. Military engines create instabilities in the wormhole stabilization field generated by a commercial jump drive and collapse it. On the other hand, commercial-engined ships can transit a wormhole opened by a military jump drive, but this scenario is pretty rare. Military jump drives tend to only support smaller ships, and ships with commercial engines tend to be larger than the capabilities of the military jump drive.
http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Jump_drive
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: April 20, 2020, 07:02:25 AM »That's a bug then.
Posted by: Energyz
« on: April 20, 2020, 06:31:38 AM »Negative, Jump Drive is tied to engine type.
At least in 1.5.3, I've made a Commercial tanker with a military jump engine (so I can use it as a jump ship for my military fleet) Works just fine
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: April 20, 2020, 06:29:22 AM »Negative, Jump Drive is tied to engine type.
Posted by: Energyz
« on: April 20, 2020, 06:15:45 AM »use only Commercial Engines (big, slow, can't use Military Jump Drives)
Pretty sure it can use military jump drives.
