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Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 08, 2020, 05:15:53 PM »

Quote from: AlmightyTaz on May 07, 2020, 12:36:57 AM
Thanks for your suggestions - I'll definitely try some of those strategies.

To be honest, I'm really enjoying the more epic feel of playing on 0. 20 research rate.  I find myself caring much more about my choices, and every time a tech completes feels like a major accomplishment or milestone.  It's also fun to work around the limitations and find new ways to solve problems. 

I'm putting much more thought into my ship design and logistics because I know it's going to be 20 years before my mining rate or underway replenishment techs complete - so I need that new colony online ASAP, and I need to position a fuel base in a defensible location nearer the frontier. 

I highly recommend you give it a go at some point.  Super satisfying.

I also have a recent conventional campaign where I have 20% research, 5% survey and 50% terraforming rate. Even if I started the game with 2 billion people on Earth everything moves along at a snails pace and every decision I make needs to be carefully weighted. As I also usually give humans only a gravity tolerance of 33% (which I think is more realistic) there are no real suitable planets to colonise in Sol other than Venus which really is not an option.

This turn every decision you do into so much more important and every decision for new technology research is so much more important. I also have some rules for how labs are distributed as well as I never allow labs to just switch fields on a whim so every lab build have to be assigned and then stay in that field... so I can't just focus on one field and then switch to another.

There never really will be a perfect opportunity to build the perfect ship or fleet as technology is so slow to tick in that you will have to live with what you got for so long. As you say... every new research becomes something interesting, new and fun to explore... how can you best use this new technology and how will it change your general goals. Every technology I start planning for is a major investment in time and effort, every lab I produce is a choice into which field I will try to further next as it is a long term choice.

Every project that I undertake in this game have to be planned for many years forward as new technology does not come along very often to boost production, mining productivity and the like very often to help with shortcomings. You will have to live with bad fuel efficiency as you expand your border in space far beyond Earth, that means you have to really plan for fuel distribution to support everywhere you plan to expand and send survey operation. Surveying is really slow and often take multiple vessels many years to perform if systems is large, this is another source for burning lots of fuel etc... and on and on it goes...  ;)

I'm just lucky I did not meet any hostile aliens close to earth in this game.  :)

I'm really thankful for Steve to include these options of slowing down research, surveying etc.. so I can play a truly Epic game of Aurora in the future.
Posted by: liveware
« on: May 08, 2020, 04:35:54 PM »

Quote from: Person012345 on May 05, 2020, 01:58:51 AM
Fighters shouldn't be overlooked as a tool against a superior enemy. Especially when pumped out in large numbers and maintained at a colony they can bring a lot of ordnance to bear in one go and they remain useful when you transition into a "blue water" navy.

+1 vote for early fighters. They are much cheaper to produce individually than large ships and are quite customizable. I find they add significant variety and capabilities to my low tech fleets. Plus, having lots of fighters incentivises the development of carriers, which in turn benefit from escort ships similar to what you've already designed.

Fighters can also help launch missiles from longer range than your larger ships, which can be useful.
Posted by: kenlon
« on: May 08, 2020, 03:44:19 PM »

Quote from: AlmightyTaz on May 07, 2020, 12:36:57 AM
To be honest, I'm really enjoying the more epic feel of playing on 0. 20 research rate.  I find myself caring much more about my choices, and every time a tech completes feels like a major accomplishment or milestone.  It's also fun to work around the limitations and find new ways to solve problems. 

I absolutely agree - I'm doing a 20% research, 8x starting minerals conventional game right now, and each new drive or weapon generation feels revolutionary. I'm actually building generations of ships, with each tier feeling like a order of magnitude increase in power over the last.

I had been worried that I would be able to overpower the tech slowdown by just building more labs, but that hasn't happened, fortunately.
Posted by: AlmightyTaz
« on: May 07, 2020, 12:36:57 AM »

Thanks for your suggestions - I'll definitely try some of those strategies.

To be honest, I'm really enjoying the more epic feel of playing on 0. 20 research rate.  I find myself caring much more about my choices, and every time a tech completes feels like a major accomplishment or milestone.  It's also fun to work around the limitations and find new ways to solve problems. 

I'm putting much more thought into my ship design and logistics because I know it's going to be 20 years before my mining rate or underway replenishment techs complete - so I need that new colony online ASAP, and I need to position a fuel base in a defensible location nearer the frontier. 

I highly recommend you give it a go at some point.  Super satisfying.
Posted by: macks
« on: May 06, 2020, 11:28:46 PM »

What a fun idea and a serious challenge too! I'm impressed considering I always start with extra labs and research points. I just like the designing stuff part better I guess. Maybe you could try beam weapons for a constant stream of damage on ships that jump through, especially if you're already within maximum damage range at your side of the JP. Missiles are definitely an added challenge though. Math and allocating resources is hard, I like when lasers go pew.
Posted by: kenlon
« on: May 06, 2020, 05:13:43 PM »

Quote from: Father Tim on May 06, 2020, 05:53:51 AM
It can't win; it can only hope to hang on long enough that something else that can win gets built.

. . . uh, yeah?

Quote from: AlmightyTaz on May 04, 2020, 09:45:50 AM
I wanted to create a primarily defensive fleet that could take out as many incoming missiles with my limited tech and still take a good few hits on armour while attempting to land missile hits of my own if they jumped into my home system.   I will forward deploy many cheap scout ships / DST stations or heavily armored battlestations to soak up initial missile salvos and make use of my missiles' range.   

So, I designed the 'Arleigh Burke' an Area Defense Destroyer with size 1 AAMs and the 'Spruance' Destroyer Escort with three twin gauss turrets for last-ditch fleet point defense.   Once I have built up a much larger force of these, I will begin adding in a group of my own Missile Destroyers, the 'Roosevelt' class, in the hope that one day I'll be able to overwhelm the small enemy fleet - even with my own inferior technology - though I must admit, I'd settle for simply avoiding annihilation of my fledgling empire at this point. 

He's building a fleet explicitly to lurk on his side of the jump points, with station support, and hold the enemy. Criticizing the designs based on how they are not suited for doing something they weren't designed for  is silly. He's not going to be chasing down the enemy.

And he's on a 20% research game - it may be quite some time before he can build ships that can successfully go on the offense, and he has to live to get to that point.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: May 06, 2020, 05:53:51 AM »

Quote from: kenlon on May 04, 2020, 12:31:36 PM
Quote from: Father Tim link=topic=11256. msg130714#msg130714 date=1588609551
Well, with surrendering the speed advantage to your enemy, there's not a lot your fleet can do except die.   If you build enough of them, you could charge their planet and attempt to bombard it into submission from orbit, but otherwise you are doomed to play target for missiles until the enemy gives up and goes away.

Given that it's an explicitly defensive fleet build in order to fight an enemy that out-techs him, I don't think the inability of these ships to attack into the enemy systems is a big drawback.


Okay, let me rephrase then.

If the 'explicitly defensive' squadron can't do the job of stopping incoming missiles, it's destroyed.

If it can do the job, the enemy leaves (and if Steve has programmed the AI correctly) comes back with something better. . . at which point the squadron is destroyed.

It can't win; it can only hope to hang on long enough that something else that can win gets built.
Posted by: Person012345
« on: May 05, 2020, 01:58:51 AM »

Fighters shouldn't be overlooked as a tool against a superior enemy. Especially when pumped out in large numbers and maintained at a colony they can bring a lot of ordnance to bear in one go and they remain useful when you transition into a "blue water" navy. It depends how you see your navy, your own industrial capacity and what exactly you're up against but I've found few better ways of sending an assload of material in the enemy's direction all at once so that statistically at least something should hit.

I can also say from recent experience that it's pretty satisfying when a spoiler has been bugging you all game, shooting down salvos of hundreds of missiles with their point defense and getting in your way and you finally have enough, have a navy building montage and watch as their little robot brains try to comprehend and shoot down the incoming 800 missile salvo.
Posted by: AlmightyTaz
« on: May 04, 2020, 08:59:57 PM »

Thanks everyone for your really helpful comments.  I'll need to re-read them all carefully after work and work out what to do.

Some quick takeaways though:

1.  More FC needed on ADDs.
2.  Use bigger, faster, but shorter-range AMMs to begin with before I can tech up.
3.  Bigger magazines would be good (even if +1 ;P )
4.  Consider building defense bases and minefields on the JP in the short-term before developing the offensive navy later with better tech.
5.  Scout more with an 'expendable' scout ship with good sensors to understand the enemy.

Thanks for helping out new players.  I know it must get annoying dealing with same basic issues, but sometimes I can't find the information I need on the forums easily.  Cheers!
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 04, 2020, 04:51:50 PM »

Quote from: SpikeTheHobbitMage on May 04, 2020, 04:00:59 PM
Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on May 04, 2020, 03:19:23 PM
AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.
Missile ECM only affects AMM FC range, not accuracy.  Putting ECCM on an AMM is pointless.
Even at 100 agility per MSP, making the missile larger will always hurt CTH, even if you put all of the additional space into agility.

No... not in C#.. Steve removed the armour and repaced that with a more advanced ECM/ECCM missile combat mechanic where ECM on missiles actually make the missile harder to intercept by other missiles. It also effect the fire control the same way it used to in addition to that.

Making the missile larger at low technology is a huge thing as so much of the missile is taken up of the warhead at low tech (when combined with ECCM especially), that is why...
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: May 04, 2020, 04:37:57 PM »

The only time JP is defended by ships in my case is on the other side (the one where you go), and it is usually normal ships, never defensive ships. Home system defense of JP is better served by cheap bases (no engines and no fuel = lots of minerals and finance saved, space can be used for armour or even more weapons!), you just need to tow them there (JP is not going to move anyway). Plasma carronade into the face right after jumping in always works like a charm (shame one cannot see this carnage in beautiful 3D graphics). Plus mines to spice things up (not to mention you don't need super range, targeting or engines for them!).

For me, going strong defensive = going cheap, especially on tech and minerals.

I risk that I will sound like smartass but maybe rethink the strategy a bit? Purely defensive ships that barely qualify for their job are a bad investment in most cases. Cheap defense on JP with bases and mines coupled with distant attack fleet that is there to pursue (if there is someone that survives!) or even join in the defence sounds better, even with less ship.
This might lead to classic turtle problem of *I have 100 towers your army does not scare me!* vs *You cannot move those towers to attack me so I do not care* but in times of crisis desperate measures are all you can hope for!

I also believe you are more likely to have met spoilers, though the combination of col cost 0 (I assume that is what you meant by nice planets) and instant JP defense sound more like proper NPR. I would recommend jumping something with oversized sensors that can survive long enough to get some readings in (especially colony one should be easy), being up for 30s max should be doable (maybe not best investment if you suspect imminent invasion though).

Edit:
As others noted, your designs are pretty good, especially considering that they do what you intend them to do, and having maint. time up is also nice to see, especially for defensive fleet, which you obviously don't want off duty every 2nd year. Never use 1 FC in a military ship though, lucky hit and even the best ship is just a blind future-to-be-wreck. Mere 2 give you much greater survivability with the added benefit of more options (more FCs = more targets).
Posted by: Migi
« on: May 04, 2020, 04:17:26 PM »

Your Destroyer Escort is going to shoot at missiles so it should technically have a res 1 sensor.
Likewise your Area Defence Destroyer doesn't strictly need a res 50 sensor, you can use that space for a bigger sensor, more maintenance or that crucial 1 point of magazine size (that last bit was sarcastic btw).

If you're planning on deploying them in a defensive posture around the jump point you could look into upping the deployment and maintenance life so that you don't have to swap them around so much, although if you have a station providing maintenance that might not be an issue.
The range seems quite long for a defensive minded fleet.

If you're planning on building lots of ships then consider putting most or all your sensors into a dedicated sensor ship, theoretically speaking every 50T of EM sensor is 50T which could be another AMM launcher. Personally I am a slave to my compulsions like having small sensors across every ship even if they are for all practical purposes mostly a waste of space.

The AMM is slower than your ASM which is not good. Dump fuel for engine and a bit of manoeuvre rating, you don't need it to reach very far based on the sensors you listed. It's true that early AMMs are really terrible, that's why you need loads and loads of them so try to up your magazine size.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: May 04, 2020, 04:00:59 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on May 04, 2020, 03:19:23 PM
AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.
Missile ECM only affects AMM FC range, not accuracy.  Putting ECCM on an AMM is pointless.
Even at 100 agility per MSP, making the missile larger will always hurt CTH, even if you put all of the additional space into agility.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 04, 2020, 03:19:23 PM »

AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: May 04, 2020, 02:28:08 PM »

kenlon is right about those dart missiles.  I'd replace some of that fuel with agility to get the hit rate up.  2.5m-3m km should be plenty.  Looking again, those CTH numbers seem off, as if you aren't getting any agility bonus at all, including the +10% base modifier.

Quote from: Energyz on May 04, 2020, 10:41:16 AM
I'm nitpicking because it's overall good designs.

You 175 (number of missiles in magazines) is not a multiple of 16. That means incomplete salvo

Maint life seems really big to me (compared to deploy time), you could probably lower it by half. Or use all those MSP by adding a damage control

AMM range is more than your Dart Acquisition Lidar Mk1 SR (1), but less than Dart Guidance Array Mk1 LR (1)   Range 21.  4m km  Resolution 1.

If you want your AMM to be versatile (so you can use it to damage ennemy ships), you can keep the long range, but otherwise you probably can lower it a lot (and max out hit chance)


Peltast Twin Gauss Turret (R30k-T18.  5k) (3x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 18500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Point Defence Fire Control Mk1 (2)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

For the gauss turrets itself, range is useless (you shoot at 10kkm). You need the Fire Controle TS to be more or equal to the PD turrets. You need only one FC. You want to max out range and TS of your FC (make it 16x time, it's worth it).


You probably want the deployment time of your fleet to be consistent, like you did with range.

Nitpicking your nitpick:
If being 1 missile short on the last salvo comes up, you were dead anyway.  Only 11 salvos seems a bit shallow.
I'd say the deployment time is too short.  As this is a starting fleet, damage control is great if you can afford the RP cost, but I find 80k starting RP rather tight.
Unless the enemy chooses to close, even that range of missile won't help against a speed advantage.
I haven't seen it mentioned as fixed for 1.9.4, but turrets were bugged in 1.9.3 to eat supplies.