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Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 10, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »

Spinal lasers of really large size is brutal and can cause massive damage through sheer chock if it does not outright tear through the armour. Combination of heavy hitters and fast firing high rate of fire lasers are very effective.

In this case though... since you also have particle lances I would agree that Spinal lasers don't make that much sense other than for the fun factor... if you have them then why not use them I say.

In terms of the launcher and smaller salvo size it really does not matter... instead of arriving to the battlefield with one Cruiser and a handful of escorts you arrive with two battle cruisers with no escorts as they bring their own defences anyway that way. Now you also have the option of choosing how many offensive and defensive missiles they carry and what types and you can change them in the field from long, medium or short range missiles and in which proportion of AMM versus ASM they carry at any time. It also is very easy to use excessive force with box launchers and then leave you open for a surprise counterattack from a hidden force.

In my opinion versatility is more important... you still would have the same throw weight... it is just a measure of how much do you value defence or offence. If you bring 4 cruisers with 120 missiles you have half the defensive capacity as if you bring 8 cruisers to do the same job. If you don't care about the defence and you find that it is good enough then all is well, that is the doctrine you set out to have, there are many example in our world where both have been successfully used.

My doctrine usually go by the metric that any battle-group must be able to handle an enemy at least three times it size in terms of missile defences using a layered defence strategy. If I ever intend to assault something the minimum battle doctrine dictate at least a 5:1 strength in my favour or the assault are deemed too risky as you can't ever know all the details.

According to this logic if you arrive with 8 ships with the same missile firepower for the same(ish) cost you can arrive with 8 ships with 2x the firepower and enough PD to handle the more defensive minded  fleet offensive missiles.

It's interesting to think about the possibilities. 2 defensive fleet cannot really hurt eachother with missiles 2 offensive fleet can hurt eachother pretty well. But in an offensive vs deffensive situation it's back to no real damage.

One thing to note here is that defense is much harder against missiles as offence in my opinion.

You waste allot less resources on defences against missiles if you can defend against them. It's only if the defences get overwhelmed that you don't.

I also take the option of no one doing damage over both killing each other... the problem with the latter is that it can easily be one fleet that obliterate the other because of some outside or random fluke. It is not the most sound doctrine in my opinion to rely on luck if you can avoid it.

I usually consider at least an expected 3-5:1 is realistic as that give allot of leeway for misjudgement or bad luck if I go on the offensive. If I can't bring overwhelming force I would rarely bother in the first place.

Glass canon tactic in Aurora can become very expensive... at least if you can defend you usually expend less resources than the other side did.

The other thing is versatility, being able to bring more or less AMM versus ASM or different types of ASM... those things are stuff you can't put a price on that is VERY important in practice but rarely in theory.
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 10, 2020, 08:57:49 AM »

everybody loves a battleship, even the guys who would never build one.

lemme start with the controversial suggestion.  too much armor.  if you just gotta have passive defenses (hiss), plow half the tonnage back into shields.  lean into the big ship advantages, i say.

i have no problem with box launchers on big ships, insufficient throw weight will kill you just as dead as running out of ammo, right?  but his majesty here is kind of rocking the swiss army knife, and some specialized ammo (and the ability to load it...) fits the theme.

speaking of specialized, one of the real big ship advantages is specialized fire controls.  idk how much use you get out of a dozen MFCs for the offensive missiles, i think maybe a pair each in res4, 18 and 150, or thereabouts would do you more good, supposing you elect to go with more versatile missiles.  im kind of repetitive on this point, but specialized fighter-killing apparatus is more valuable (IMO) than specialized ship-killing apparatus.  it may take some persistence to kill an ogre with a rolled up newspaper, but nothing like having to kill a fly with a battleaxe.

back to controversial.   i think your offensive missile caliber is too large.  a half-granit seems to me to be an excellent munition; you're right at that RP endowment where cost-effectiveness against AMMs becomes a real consideration.

having one of everything, or hell, two, is part of the charm, but i feel the 15s are the best of your lasers.  they make nice secondary weapons for the lances at longer ranges, and one notes you shelled out for range on your gauss guns, so THEY back up your 15s in a knife fight.

It's have some capacity like what you are talking about. The AMM fire controls have 20mkm range so its so-so useful against fighters. Against beam armed small crafts perfect but against missile armed a bit short ranged.

I find size 8 ASM is a necessary evil. I want to have a missile with small-medium range, good damage and good hit chance that's all and well I can use a size 6 for that. The issue is you really do need ECM and ECCM which is 0,5 MSP together. That's why I need the size 8 and to have a 16 str warhead.

Edit: Yeah I invested heavily in gauss range. According to my logic if it's not bigger then why shouln't I need it? With 40k range it can be useful in some situation every 5sec ~100 hit is pretty brutal.
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 10, 2020, 08:45:31 AM »

Spinal lasers of really large size is brutal and can cause massive damage through sheer chock if it does not outright tear through the armour. Combination of heavy hitters and fast firing high rate of fire lasers are very effective.

In this case though... since you also have particle lances I would agree that Spinal lasers don't make that much sense other than for the fun factor... if you have them then why not use them I say.

In terms of the launcher and smaller salvo size it really does not matter... instead of arriving to the battlefield with one Cruiser and a handful of escorts you arrive with two battle cruisers with no escorts as they bring their own defences anyway that way. Now you also have the option of choosing how many offensive and defensive missiles they carry and what types and you can change them in the field from long, medium or short range missiles and in which proportion of AMM versus ASM they carry at any time. It also is very easy to use excessive force with box launchers and then leave you open for a surprise counterattack from a hidden force.

In my opinion versatility is more important... you still would have the same throw weight... it is just a measure of how much do you value defence or offence. If you bring 4 cruisers with 120 missiles you have half the defensive capacity as if you bring 8 cruisers to do the same job. If you don't care about the defence and you find that it is good enough then all is well, that is the doctrine you set out to have, there are many example in our world where both have been successfully used.

My doctrine usually go by the metric that any battle-group must be able to handle an enemy at least three times it size in terms of missile defences using a layered defence strategy. If I ever intend to assault something the minimum battle doctrine dictate at least a 5:1 strength in my favour or the assault are deemed too risky as you can't ever know all the details.

According to this logic if you arrive with 8 ships with the same missile firepower for the same(ish) cost you can arrive with 8 ships with 2x the firepower and enough PD to handle the more defensive minded  fleet offensive missiles.

It's interesting to think about the possibilities. 2 defensive fleet cannot really hurt eachother with missiles 2 offensive fleet can hurt eachother pretty well. But in an offensive vs deffensive situation it's back to no real damage.

One thing to note here is that defense is much harder against missiles as offence in my opinion.
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 10, 2020, 08:41:47 AM »

Edit: Why should I drop the spinal laser?


It has terrible tracking speed compared to your turrets, terrible rate of fire compared to your turrets, and lousy weight (and space) efficiency compared to your particle lances.  And it doesn't match your particle lances for rate of fire.  The major benefit of a spinal weapon (longer range) is negated by your fire control.

It is the classic pre-dreadnought problem of every weapon on the ship wants to fight at different ranges, so unless your enemy divides & positions themselves at those ranges, portions of your armament are going to be at severe disadvantage.

Swapping the spinal laser for more laser turrets (large or small) or particle lances would give the ship a much more rational damage-range profile.  Having all your non-AA (point defense) weapons with a RoF of 20 or 50 makes salvo-matching far easier.  With the spinal at 45 seconds you may very well be 'wasting' its damage on shield recharging in a long-range fight.

Yeah. You convinced me. With some other tweaks here and there this is the Monarch B. Good thing about the 3 year building time is that you have time to tweak the design so the second ship would be better than the first :D . They can be build in the same shipyard without retool so I see this as an absolute win.

Code: [Select]
Monarch B class Battleship      72,000 tons       1,934 Crew       18,769.1 BP       TCS 1,440    TH 8,294    EM 10,320
5760 km/s      Armour 12-154       Shields 344-537       HTK 686      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 117      PPV 1317.16
Maint Life 2.38 Years     MSP 17,286    AFR 728%    IFR 10.1%    1YR 4,171    5YR 62,568    Max Repair 1382.4 MSP
Magazine 1,160    Cryogenic Berths 200   
Kommodore    Control Rating 5   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP2764.80 (3)    Power 8294.4    Fuel Use 16.63%    Signature 2764.8    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 2,005,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km (60 days at full power)
Epsilon S172 / R537 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 537 seconds (0.6 per second)

Triple 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 384,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 72-18     RM 60,000 km    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Lance-18 (5)    Range 384,000km     TS: 6,250 km/s     Power 55-6     RM 400,000 km    ROF 50        18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18
Quad 15.0cm  Laser Turret "Xiphos" (3x4)    Range 360,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-24     RM 60,000 km    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Quad Gauss(0.17) Cannon Turret "Telamon-B" (21x20)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (30%) (2)     Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 10,000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Beam Fire Control R144-TS25000 (30%) (3)     Max Range: 144,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 38 31
Stellarator Fusion Reactor R26-PB30 (6)     Total Power Output 157.2    Exp 15%

Size 8.00 Box Launcher (120)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Size 1 Missile Launcher (20)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC20-R1 (30%) (5)     Range 20.3m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC94-R100 (30%) (8)     Range 94.3m km    Resolution 100
ASM-8B " Granit" (120)    Speed: 39,000 km/s    End: 16.4m     Range: 38.3m km    WH: 16    Size: 8    TH: 234/140/70
AMM-1A "Sarissa" (200)    Speed: 57,600 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 2.8m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 614/368/184

Active Search Sensor AS210-R100 (30%) (1)     GPS 36000     Range 210.8m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS55-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 540     Range 55.6m km    MCR 6.1m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-3 (5)         ECM 30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I also changed the PD defense. With better tracking turrets (Since the 85% on is a bit of a legacy one fro ma previous abandoned design.) and I changed to 17% gauss in quad turrets.  If a did the math right the raw hit count should be 68/80 for the 85% gauss and 71,4/420. For similar tonnage but with better tracking it should be superior to the 85% one and it has a small chance to overperform against old but numerous missiles.
I also added a second ECM just to be safe.
Posted by: misanthropope
« on: May 09, 2020, 01:35:40 PM »

everybody loves a battleship, even the guys who would never build one.

lemme start with the controversial suggestion.  too much armor.  if you just gotta have passive defenses (hiss), plow half the tonnage back into shields.  lean into the big ship advantages, i say.

i have no problem with box launchers on big ships, insufficient throw weight will kill you just as dead as running out of ammo, right?  but his majesty here is kind of rocking the swiss army knife, and some specialized ammo (and the ability to load it...) fits the theme.

speaking of specialized, one of the real big ship advantages is specialized fire controls.  idk how much use you get out of a dozen MFCs for the offensive missiles, i think maybe a pair each in res4, 18 and 150, or thereabouts would do you more good, supposing you elect to go with more versatile missiles.  im kind of repetitive on this point, but specialized fighter-killing apparatus is more valuable (IMO) than specialized ship-killing apparatus.  it may take some persistence to kill an ogre with a rolled up newspaper, but nothing like having to kill a fly with a battleaxe.

back to controversial.   i think your offensive missile caliber is too large.  a half-granit seems to me to be an excellent munition; you're right at that RP endowment where cost-effectiveness against AMMs becomes a real consideration.

having one of everything, or hell, two, is part of the charm, but i feel the 15s are the best of your lasers.  they make nice secondary weapons for the lances at longer ranges, and one notes you shelled out for range on your gauss guns, so THEY back up your 15s in a knife fight.
Posted by: Vastrat
« on: May 08, 2020, 06:27:27 PM »

Good looking ship design. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 08, 2020, 02:49:49 PM »

Spinal lasers of really large size is brutal and can cause massive damage through sheer chock if it does not outright tear through the armour. Combination of heavy hitters and fast firing high rate of fire lasers are very effective.

In this case though... since you also have particle lances I would agree that Spinal lasers don't make that much sense other than for the fun factor... if you have them then why not use them I say.

In terms of the launcher and smaller salvo size it really does not matter... instead of arriving to the battlefield with one Cruiser and a handful of escorts you arrive with two battle cruisers with no escorts as they bring their own defences anyway that way. Now you also have the option of choosing how many offensive and defensive missiles they carry and what types and you can change them in the field from long, medium or short range missiles and in which proportion of AMM versus ASM they carry at any time. It also is very easy to use excessive force with box launchers and then leave you open for a surprise counterattack from a hidden force.

In my opinion versatility is more important... you still would have the same throw weight... it is just a measure of how much do you value defence or offence. If you bring 4 cruisers with 120 missiles you have half the defensive capacity as if you bring 8 cruisers to do the same job. If you don't care about the defence and you find that it is good enough then all is well, that is the doctrine you set out to have, there are many example in our world where both have been successfully used.

My doctrine usually go by the metric that any battle-group must be able to handle an enemy at least three times it size in terms of missile defences using a layered defence strategy. If I ever intend to assault something the minimum battle doctrine dictate at least a 5:1 strength in my favour or the assault are deemed too risky as you can't ever know all the details.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: May 08, 2020, 02:18:49 PM »

Hey, it's your ship, do what you like.

But that is why I would drop the spinal laser.
Posted by: macks
« on: May 08, 2020, 01:19:24 PM »


I mean, sure the spinal beam is not efficient or super useful, but imagining a 450mm spinal beam tearing through a cruiser is worth it imo. Every 45 seconds, something will meet its maker in a fantastic explosion.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: May 08, 2020, 06:44:12 AM »

Edit: Why should I drop the spinal laser?


It has terrible tracking speed compared to your turrets, terrible rate of fire compared to your turrets, and lousy weight (and space) efficiency compared to your particle lances.  And it doesn't match your particle lances for rate of fire.  The major benefit of a spinal weapon (longer range) is negated by your fire control.

It is the classic pre-dreadnought problem of every weapon on the ship wants to fight at different ranges, so unless your enemy divides & positions themselves at those ranges, portions of your armament are going to be at severe disadvantage.

Swapping the spinal laser for more laser turrets (large or small) or particle lances would give the ship a much more rational damage-range profile.  Having all your non-AA (point defense) weapons with a RoF of 20 or 50 makes salvo-matching far easier.  With the spinal at 45 seconds you may very well be 'wasting' its damage on shield recharging in a long-range fight.
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 08, 2020, 03:27:19 AM »

Fun ship. Inspired by yours I put a 80kt one together for fun. You can fit a lot on these things.

A few suggestions:
Box launchers are rather odd for such a large ship like this. If the reload time isn't a big deal, I would suggest one of the other reduced size so that you at least don't have to leave the field to reload. 12 fire controls for 120 missiles sounds good, but unless your target is unarmed, I doubt 10 missiles will be enough to get through defenses and destroy it. I'd suggest 2-4 controls. You can always change your target in the next increment after all.

Of similar note, too many beam fire controls. 2 and 2 is probably plenty. I'm curious on why both 15cm and 30cm lasers? 15cm isn't the best for PD and if you want damage the 30cm would be much better. I'd drop the 15cm personally..

Anyway, them be my thoughts. :)

 I am glad you find it fun! I hope your BB will have glorious moments in battle.
I chose the box launchers because only with those can I have the biggest possible alpha strike. The 12 fire controls is there in case the enemy would try to swarm me with FAC-s and fighters. 10 missile ought kill a FAC even if half of it is wasted against PD-fire or misses. That's why I have more BFC-s than I really need but admittedly 2-2 should be enough. I just really don't want to loose efficient PD fire thanks to some freak hits.
 The 30cm is for mid/longer range and for bigger targets mostly. When you need the penetration but you want more ROF than 50 or 45sec. This way you have more chance to actually hit them. And ofc if there are numerous small enemy ships these can deal with those too albeit at a reduced rate. I assume small ships would be faster thus harder to hit especially if those small ships are fighters or FAC-s so ROF is essential and that's why I have the 15cm lasers too. Every 5 sec there is a chance to hit them. Against something small the 15cm laser is deadly and with the 5 sec ROF it has the best chance to hit them. Also they can grind the bigger ships down with enough hits.
 
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 08, 2020, 03:13:44 AM »

It's a fine big battleship that violates dreadnought principles by having a mixed main battery, a powerful secondary battery, and someone seems to have strapped an absurd number of torpedo tubes to the deck.  Definitely drop the spinal mount weapon.

The tertiary battery 6" DP guns are good, but there should be twice as many of them.  The AA suite looks good, but only time will tell.

The armour is too weak to be 'balanced' -- meaning it's own guns will penetrate it at battle ranges.

- - - - -

I, of course, completely disagree with my learned colleague above.  It is better (more fun) to spend resources on ships than missiles (AM, AS, or otherwise).

Well I think what works for a navy is not necessarily works for a space-navy but this ships is more a battleship (Pre-Dreadnought). The armor was a sacrifice to save space for the shields. The two combined should provide ample passive defense.

I like to spend on both. And the anticipation and excitement is terrific when you watch your ASM-s. :D

Edit: Why should I drop the spinal laser?
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 08, 2020, 03:06:32 AM »

You don't design AMMs to intercept your own missiles so if they are good enough really depends. It is generally better to loose resources on missiles rather than ships for example.

But if the case here is shooting down your own missiles the AMM have a 47% chance to intercept, but that is without ECM, the ECM reduce that chance to only 17%. A 47% is a really good value, 17% are starting to look bad though. From a resource perspective you use about 2.14/0.17 or 12.5 BP for every enemy missile you shoot down that have a cost of 16 BP. From a space perspective you use about 6 MSP worth of AMM for 8 MSP worth of enemy ASM.

The trade off is not as bad as you would think...

An AMM with a 50% chance to hit is generally an extremely effective AMM from a resource perspective.

In terms of total cost this ship could waste about 9000 AMM before loosing the ship itself is better from a resource perspective.   ;)

In regards to design the only thing I never do is using box launchers on capital ships as some form of main armament... I don't think it is worth the hassle to be honest and stick with the smallest possible launcher that can reload from internal magazines (x0.3HS). This gives better options for use of different types of missiles. In general that is a long, medium and close ranged torpedo type missile. I feel like I'm putting too many eggs in one basket if I pre select one kind of missile and go off on a long mission somewhere.

AS I also often play multiple-faction games and face other stuff that is not NPRs then having only one solution or volley to do damage can be problematic because you don't know if it is enough or if you are wasting ammunition. If you target too many missiles on one target the enemy can just focus on the other missiles and give up on one or two ships and scuttle them as the fleet split up to identify which missiles are targeted at which ship. These are things an NPR would never do...  ;)
Most of these fights in those games end up with one side retreating with a few losses as no one wants to commit to beam range but the weaker side move away...

I also would massively favour fighters to have box launchers over capital ships, so I would fit hangars instead of the box launches and use carriers at that point... which I usually do. Missiles on ships are basically backup or meant for patrolling ships at that point and play more of a secondary strike role.

I'm not saying that it is bad by any stretch to use box launchers kike this... I simply don't like that doctrine in that way. Especially as I would never allow ships that large to rearm in a carrier in my campaigns, but that is a RP thing.

The ship itself are pretty darn impressive in terms of defences, even against their own 120 ASM salvo... it would have a small chance to survive... especially if the AMM also had an ECCM module. And that is with no escorts which I believe this ship probably would have in most cases.

One other thing that sort of worries me though about the doctrine is the range of the missiles... if they are so short I would just go right ahead an make them very short range to make them even harder to intercept... or really long range to lob missiles from a range the enemy can't' retaliate. 40m kilometre is sort of a strange range at this technology level for a large capital ship.


Thanks for the feedback!
Well my AMM-s are the first generation of their kind because I struggled to make them useful. My main problem is I don't see how can I cram so many things in a such a small body. I am investigating currently if I would be better of with 1,2-1,5 size AMM-s. I can fit an ECCM into that while the speed of the missile should be the same(ish).

The range of the ASM is a compromise really. in VB6 I preferred 100-150mkm range but with the new system those would mean a huge sacrifice. 40mkm is comfortably midrange with 1MSP of fuel with this kind of range there is still hope if the original missile salvo fails to run for it before the enemy catches up. But I have to admit I am currently designing a short range torpedo variant with as much speed as its possible.

If I were to increase my launcher size to 0,3 it would mean I have only a 60ASM salvo. ( 80 with size 6 ASM-s) That's simply not enough in my opinion. Even if I can fire multiple times 60 missiles it's still much easier to destroy 60. This ship have 8x2x5 shots for only the gauss cannons. Which translates to ~34 shot down missile if they came at the same speed as the Granit and no other bonuses apply. But there are other defenses on the ship. I don't thing there would be more than a leak missile or two. So the salvo would be wasted. I would rather punch hard very hard when I have the opportunity.
Posted by: Hungaricus
« on: May 08, 2020, 02:49:48 AM »

It is really late and I just ran through the post (plus I am no expert at missiles, trying to avoid them if possible) but that AMM seems to have poor hit chance against actual missile (used your own ASM as example). Always bad at math, but that is not horribly bad, just low (I think below 50% AMM hit is wasteful).

But most importantly, I love that you build those big ships, more people should play like that. I always feel like half-insane scientist by building my 2m ton fuel harvesters or terraformers (though those are bases). Compared to common 8-15k ships that is a behemoth, against 72k, not as much. Keep at it!  ;D

Edit:

To keep with the theme, Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser! (or whoever is yours!)  8)

Thanks for the feedback! I was surprised when I saw that noone did the Habsburg Empire theme before and as I quite like the era it just felt natural. Accoridng my RP backstory the Habsburgs married themselfs to the top of the world and united most. (The divergence point is the Spanish Succesion War in my timeline.)

I like to build big ships for 2 reason mostly. (Aside from the rule of cool.)
1.) Bigger components and more layers of armor are considerably more efficient.
2.) I don't like speciliast ships. “A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.” is my motto.

My bases are much smaller though in this playtrough so I can tow them faster. I forced myself to a maximum of 500kT.
Posted by: Nori
« on: May 07, 2020, 05:55:58 PM »

Fun ship. Inspired by yours I put a 80kt one together for fun. You can fit a lot on these things.

A few suggestions:
Box launchers are rather odd for such a large ship like this. If the reload time isn't a big deal, I would suggest one of the other reduced size so that you at least don't have to leave the field to reload. 12 fire controls for 120 missiles sounds good, but unless your target is unarmed, I doubt 10 missiles will be enough to get through defenses and destroy it. I'd suggest 2-4 controls. You can always change your target in the next increment after all.

Of similar note, too many beam fire controls. 2 and 2 is probably plenty. I'm curious on why both 15cm and 30cm lasers? 15cm isn't the best for PD and if you want damage the 30cm would be much better. I'd drop the 15cm personally..

Anyway, them be my thoughts. :)