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Posted by: liveware
« on: May 22, 2020, 12:23:09 AM »

Quote from: Black on May 17, 2020, 01:21:03 AM
Well there is limit to what Aurora allows before you start to get errors, i believe that is based on 32 bit integer. You also need tugs to move them so you are limited by what your tugs can manage with their engines.

There is post from Steve about space stations: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg106780#msg106780

There are limits. I found some in the thread below. The Int32 problem seems to be a source code level constraint:

Quote from: liveware on May 15, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
The ship below IS game breakingly large:

Code: [Select]
Exodus class Migration Vessel      2,959,707,023 tons       5,938,794 Crew       33,647,068.2 BP       TCS 59,194,140    TH 16,000,000    EM 0
270 km/s      Armour 100-183629       Shields 0-0       HTK 527491      Sensors 11/11/0/0      DCR 1010      PPV 0
MSP 101,105    Max Repair 2400 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 250,000 tons     Cargo 1,000,000    Cryogenic Berths 200,000,000    Habitation Capacity 1,000,000,000    Passengers 10000000    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 10    Tractor Beam     
Rear Admiral (Lower Half)    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   SCI   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Flight Crew Berths 5,000   
Jump Point Stabilisation: 90 days
Recreational Facilities
Fuel Harvester: 2500 modules producing 100,000,000 litres per annum
Terraformer: 4000 modules producing 1 atm per annum
Orbital Miner: 2500 modules producing 25,000 tons per mineral per annum
Maintenance Modules: 250 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 250,000 tons
Refuelling Hub - Capable of refuelling multiple ships simultaneously
Ordnance Transfer Hub - Capable of transferring ordnance to multiple ships simultaneously

Shepherd-Jordan Commercial Magneto-plasma Drive  EP3200.00 (5000)    Power 16000000.0    Fuel Use 2.52%    Signature 3200.00    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000,000 Litres    Range 4.8 billion km (207 days at full power)

Shepherd-Jordan CIWS-250 (1000x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 25,000 km/s     ROF 5       
Shepherd-Jordan Active Search Sensor AS31-R50 (50%) (1)     GPS 1050     Range 31.6m km    Resolution 50
Shepherd-Jordan Active Search Sensor AS8-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 21     Range 8.6m km    MCR 771.7k km    Resolution 1
Shepherd-Jordan Active Search Sensor AS50-R200 (50%) (1)     GPS 4200     Range 50.1m km    Resolution 200
Shepherd-Jordan EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km
Shepherd-Jordan Thermal Sensor TH1.0-11.0 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes


The game throws an error message about a number being to big/small for int32 whenever you try to view the class design, but it can be built via SM.  I was unable to make it any larger than shown due to the in32 error messages. However, even if built the ship is immobile because it cannot be refueled, even via SM refuel. It takes about 5 years to load all of the colonists that it can hold.

The cryo chambers seem to be the limiting factor. I could not add more than about 210 000 000 berths worth of cryo chambers before errors started to pop up.

A somewhat smaller version of this vessel might be interesting to attempt. Or if Mr Steve is feeling adventurous raising the int32 limit to int64 might also be interesting.

The original thread is here: aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10774.0
Posted by: skoormit
« on: May 21, 2020, 03:04:48 PM »

Quote from: Ri0Rdian on May 20, 2020, 09:52:33 AM
Ships vs Stations have the advantage of flexibility, scalability and lower individual cost. I am one of the people that build big stations, but I can see situations where I or someone else would prefer ships because they are simply better for the task.

The question is not what is better, but why is it better in situation X. I might have 2.5m ton terraformer station but still use planet based installations for example (if you can spare the infrastructure for population, it is the best). 



The ONLY reason why stations might be objectively better is this: No refit needed. None. Zilch. My Sorium harvester station if scaled with enough tanks can seem like a waste but at endgame tech and with a commander it can fill its tanks in two years. In 200 years or whenever, the tech applies to it. Same for terraformer. OR asteroid miner.

Refuelling tech + mining/harvesting/terraforming are techs that do not lead to new component so the biggest problem of bases, that is mostly encountered with Defensive ones (need new guns, sensors, armour etc) is avoided.

On the other hand... they have no armour, few shots and you are a toast. That is why I use mine only with sufficient fleet and JPs protected by bases.

Infrastructure might be just lying around, sure, but I would much rather put that population to work doing research.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: May 21, 2020, 02:59:32 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on May 17, 2020, 06:33:52 AM
Quote from: BasileusMaximos on May 17, 2020, 01:19:33 AM
Quote from: Black on May 17, 2020, 01:18:53 AM
Space Stations can be build by construction factories, you don't need shipyards for them, that is big advantage. To compensate for that, they have no armor (you need to check No Armour) and it is not possible to equip them with military components.

So there is no limit to their tonnage?

Kinda weird that armor is the thing that differentiates space stations from ships.
...
The mechanical limitation for industry on a planet to build any structure in space is that it has no armour, no engines and no military components. If these conditions is not met you need to build everything in a shipyard even if it technically is a station.
...

The weird thing is not the restriction on armor, it's the restriction on engines and military components.
After all, construction factories can build engines and military components by themselves.
Apparently they just can't attach them to structures in space.
Why is attaching a 50-ton active scanner different than attaching a 51-ton active scanner?
Posted by: Treahblade
« on: May 21, 2020, 10:05:54 AM »

Quote from: Destragon on May 20, 2020, 06:51:25 AM
The "no armor" space stations are actually so nice that I'm wondering the opposite of the thread's title.
Do you ever design something as a moving ship for a purpose that could instead be done by a space station anymore?

My mining platforms do not move as they tend to stay around a body for several years. My sorium harvesters however have engines simply because of the automated orders you can give them and they also double duty as tankers for my military and other fleets. They can deploy to a new system and just hang out near a gas giant as a type of mobile gas station in a uncivilized system. I don't use mass drivers so I ship everything around which increases the micro quite a bit so its one reason also why the harvesters move on their own.
Posted by: kenlon
« on: May 20, 2020, 10:29:31 AM »

Why stations? Because building ships with enough Orbital Hab capacity to get 50M+ population on Venus and Minerva would be ludicrously resource intensive.
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: May 20, 2020, 09:52:33 AM »

Ships vs Stations have the advantage of flexibility, scalability and lower individual cost. I am one of the people that build big stations, but I can see situations where I or someone else would prefer ships because they are simply better for the task.

The question is not what is better, but why is it better in situation X. I might have 2.5m ton terraformer station but still use planet based installations for example (if you can spare the infrastructure for population, it is the best). 



The ONLY reason why stations might be objectively better is this: No refit needed. None. Zilch. My Sorium harvester station if scaled with enough tanks can seem like a waste but at endgame tech and with a commander it can fill its tanks in two years. In 200 years or whenever, the tech applies to it. Same for terraformer. OR asteroid miner.

Refuelling tech + mining/harvesting/terraforming are techs that do not lead to new component so the biggest problem of bases, that is mostly encountered with Defensive ones (need new guns, sensors, armour etc) is avoided.

On the other hand... they have no armour, few shots and you are a toast. That is why I use mine only with sufficient fleet and JPs protected by bases.
Posted by: consiefe
« on: May 20, 2020, 09:11:05 AM »

1. They are much cheaper than counterparts.

2. They can be made gigantic because they can be built by construction factories, not needing shipyard capacity.

3. Only sane way to make habitats or big deep space complexes for maintenance, mining, terreforming purposes.

One general hinderance which stops me fully utilizing space stations is the absence of general logistics commands. If we could assign a colony as a ship's default supply place, it would make deep space complexes (both military and commercial mix) very fun to use. Because for now supplying them means constant monitoring of their supply level as they neither give any notification about it, nor we have any command tools to semi-automate or fully-automate the process.
Posted by: Azuraal
« on: May 20, 2020, 08:00:32 AM »

Quote from: Destragon link=topic=11443. msg134100#msg134100 date=1589975485
The "no armor" space stations are actually so nice that I'm wondering the opposite of the thread's title. 
Do you ever design something as a moving ship for a purpose that could instead be done by a space station anymore?
Not moving ship per say, but I did seriously consider building a Fleet logistics hub in a civilian shipyard to be able to put a bunch of armour on it.  Ultimately I didn't But I seriously considered it.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 20, 2020, 07:49:18 AM »

Quote from: Destragon on May 20, 2020, 06:51:25 AM
The "no armor" space stations are actually so nice that I'm wondering the opposite of the thread's title.
Do you ever design something as a moving ship for a purpose that could instead be done by a space station anymore?

Asteroid mining ships could potentially be a ship-type you still build as it take less micromanagement to order them about and perhaps even ship minerals they mined back to a planet. It might not be more efficient from a resource perspective but is less micromanagement. Me personally don't do that but I'm pretty certain someone does for that reason.
Posted by: Destragon
« on: May 20, 2020, 06:51:25 AM »

The "no armor" space stations are actually so nice that I'm wondering the opposite of the thread's title.
Do you ever design something as a moving ship for a purpose that could instead be done by a space station anymore?
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:56:53 PM »

Some asteroids or comets dont have enough minerals to warrant building and shipping new mines there (plus the time) but moving a huge miner there and letting it mine is easy. Just need to ship a mass driver whenever I feel like it to send it all home.

I usually go > Big Sorium Harvester (about 70 harvesters, 30m fuel storage, hub) > automines + mass driver on most needed stuff and then depending on situation either colonisation + terraform + normal mines or 2-3 Big orbital miners (each with 80-100 modules, at about 500k tons). Good thing about miners and harvester stations when build big enough is, with improving tech they will get better, just needs enough of modules (and fuel storage for sorium) even for super late game stuff.


Edit:
My general reasoning is, below 10k minerals I leave it to CMC and buy or tax as needed. Above 10k, depending on amount of minerals I send automines or orbital miners (the less minerals it has the bigger chance I will send orbital), automines have quite a bit of hidden cost in having to use and fuel transports that are also busy for some time, while huge orbital miner only needs a tug, and even that only once in a while. With about 100k minerals (total) or more I almost exclusively use automines, if the colony cost is too high or its outside of gravity limits.

Also, which is probably well known, a target with 5 minerals at 10k each is better than one with a single mineral at 50k, because one mine can mine its annual production of every mineral.
Posted by: consiefe
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:27:42 PM »

Station miners take 120 corundium to be built while autoated ones take 240. They do the same amount of production. But mining modules can only mine rocks which your race orbital mining tech allows. Automated ones can be dropped on to anywhere barring stars and gas giants.
Posted by: Borealis4x
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:11:03 PM »

Quote from: Ri0Rdian on May 17, 2020, 02:04:35 PM
I would say this is why:

Code: [Select]
Desdemona class Terraforming Base      2 518 818 tons       10 016 Crew       53 033.5 BP       TCS 50 376    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      No Armour       Shields 0-0     HTK 1293      Sensors 8/8/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 13    Max Repair 500 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   
Terraformer: 100 modules producing 0.06 atm per annum


Elbit "Howler" Navigation System (1)     GPS 1600     Range 29.6m km    Resolution 100
BAE Systems "Marconi v8" Communication Suite (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
BAE Systems "SensOR" Thermal Imagining System (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes

I like to cut down on micro as much as possible, and Stations are excellent at that. Such big stuff is nearly impossible to do with a Dock so Industry is the way to go. My Terraformers, Sorium Harvesters, Miners are almost exclusively Stations. Quite big at that, but not very numerous.

Sorium Harvester that has to move is less efficient than one that only mines and has a tanker moving what he mines. The tanker can also save as a normal tanker instead so no downtime there.

What is the advantage of station miners over automated mines and mass drivers?
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:04:35 PM »

I would say this is why:

Code: [Select]
Desdemona class Terraforming Base      2 518 818 tons       10 016 Crew       53 033.5 BP       TCS 50 376    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      No Armour       Shields 0-0     HTK 1293      Sensors 8/8/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 13    Max Repair 500 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   
Terraformer: 100 modules producing 0.06 atm per annum


Elbit "Howler" Navigation System (1)     GPS 1600     Range 29.6m km    Resolution 100
BAE Systems "Marconi v8" Communication Suite (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
BAE Systems "SensOR" Thermal Imagining System (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes

I like to cut down on micro as much as possible, and Stations are excellent at that. Such big stuff is nearly impossible to do with a Dock so Industry is the way to go. My Terraformers, Sorium Harvesters, Miners are almost exclusively Stations. Quite big at that, but not very numerous.

Sorium Harvester that has to move is less efficient than one that only mines and has a tanker moving what he mines. The tanker can also save as a normal tanker instead so no downtime there.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: May 17, 2020, 08:56:19 AM »

Quote from: Arcanestomper on May 17, 2020, 07:30:43 AM
Also not having to devote a shipyard to it can be a benefit in itself.  I'm playing a conventional campaign, and with only one starting commercial shipyard being able to build mining platforms and other commercial stations with my factories means saving my limited shipyards for things that absolutely need engines.  Plus I can build a huge mining platform in a few months as compared to a few years.

You always can build more construction yard though... i don't think that is where you save the effort. The big thing is that factories are way more flexible as you never need to retool them.

If you know that there is a type of station you will always build 24/7 non stop all the time then you definitely should try to get a shipyard built to do it rather than using factories. Shipyards once built are more efficient as they can both build stuff and expand at the same time, say adding new slipways. That is as if a factory could both build new factories and something else at the same time.