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Posted by: Borealis4x
« on: June 09, 2020, 01:49:35 PM »

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

Well, I did end up doing that just without jumping through all those hoops...

But its still not cheating, right?

But seriously, I think that stations, fighters, and ground units (expecially ground units) should all be able to refit and repair from their designated factories.
Posted by: Rince Wind
« on: June 08, 2020, 07:53:20 AM »

But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station  ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous?   :o


It isn't. The engines on the other hand...
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 07, 2020, 10:44:14 PM »

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.

Since we both seem happy to whittle away at this exceedingly fine point, I'll follow up on this.

You provide an interesting alternative.
A tanker does provide a lot more flexibility. It can go off and refuel itself if needed, or go refill an empty fleet, or perform an emergency lifepod rescue, among other things.

Let's suppose our station has 500 orbital mining modules (plus the de rigueur bridge and engineering space).

In my Add-Fuel-To-Huge-Stations plan, I add a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large.
Station weight and cost:  2,541,848 tons; 67,353 BP.

In your Fuel-Tankers-Sold-Separately plan, nothing is added to the station.
Station weight and cost:  2,540,317 tons; 67,326.9 BP.

My extra cost is 26.1BP per station.
My station weighs .06% more. Effectively zero change in tug speed.

Let's say a cheap tanker has a single size-25 engine @30% power, plus a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large (same as I put on my station).
At Improved Nuclear Pulse tech, the engine costs 11.25 BP. The tanker moves 1492km/s and has a nominal range of 2,871.4Bkm.
It's not a great design for long-range fuel hauling (too much fuel burned vs hauled on long trips) or for military fleet logistics (too slow, too small). But it is cheap, and if our only intended use is to park it near our orbital fleets, it's fine.
Tanker weight and cost:  2,513 tons; 72.7 BP.

You wouldn't quite be able to afford one with the savings from two stations--you'd need ~2.8. But for what I assume was top-of-the-head, back-of-the-napkin guesstimating, you were close enough to be called correct.

There is the cost of the shipyard to consider.
2400 BP is quite a hole to crawl out of.
If you are making this shipyard just to avoid putting fuel tanks on big stations, I'd say it's never going to be worth it.
But the shipyard employs a quarter-million workers. If you have more workers than you have others uses for, this is a boon. You make worker taxes from it.
(If you have a worker shortage, on the other hand, this is a problem. Also, please tell me how you manage to have a worker shortage. I can never create jobs fast enough in my empires.)

At the end of the day, it probably just comes down to playstyle. I like the simplicity of having an emergency fuel tank on my orbital stations. I have enough other tankers moving around my systems that the extra flexibility of parking a cheap tanker with my orbital fleet isn't going to add much value.
If we whittle it fine enough, do you think we could kill EndbringersSpoilers with it?

This argument assumes that we a) use a custom tanker design for this and b) use a dedicated tanker for the orbital fleet.
counter-a) You have a shipyard for your existing tanker fleet.  There is no need for a custom design.
counter-b) Unless your tug is constantly on long haul duty, in which case it could be argued* that it is under-tanked, then occasionally pulling an idle tanker from your existing fleet should not be onerous as you need some spare tanker capacity anyway to deal with peak demands.

*A ready counter argument is that having support tankers work in shifts for very long hauls may be more efficient than having sufficient tankage on the tug and it allows the tug to remain in the field without needing to return for fuel.

But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station  ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous?   :o

Jokes aside, the question in interesting. With the fact that we now need a refueling system for fuel transfer and can build these stations with industry, I believe it does make sense to have at least some fuel capacity and a refueling system on them, unless you're 100% sure that won't be needed. But...

I'm thinking of edge cases here, a warship or a civilian ship might get stranded close by, or your tankers be destroyed.
Since you can no longer transfer fuel between ships normally, having this capability on stations make sense. It can serve as a last ditch alternative in case you need it, and the cost to have this alternative is negligible compared to the cost of the station itself.

This is of course only true with large or very large stations. In case smller stations are used, then yes the added cost could be significant.

... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
In my experience if you've lost all of your tankers and tugs to enemy action then refuelling is the least of your problems.

A station can only move at 1 km/s, so unless the stranded ship is very close by it would probably be faster to build a new tanker or tug.

If you want refuelling capability on a body then it is simpler to drop a refuelling facility on it and truck some fuel over.  If you used TN start then you even get one for free.

It wasn't required in VB but combat tankers weren't exactly unheard of either.

...
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...

It can even be efficient, though only if you can live with another ship class for very similar role.

I sometimes use 2 tanker classes. Smaller and faster one that usually transports fuel from harvesters to colony or between colonies plus works as a fuel rat. And a much bigger and slower one with armour, some CIWS, a lot more fuel capacity to refuel fleet and also has rescue ability for survivors (I hate having extra ship for that). Works like charm.
I used to use four tanker classes:
a) Big, max efficiency tanker for fuel harvesters.
b) Big, fast jump tanker for battle fleet support.
c) Small (3kt), jump tankers for survey fleet support.  (No longer viable because military jump drives don't work with commercial engines any more.)
d) Small (500t) fast tactical tankers for FAC/fighter support.  (No longer viable due to fuel system tonnage.)

I miss my smol tankers.  :(
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: June 07, 2020, 11:22:02 AM »

...
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...

It can even be efficient, though only if you can live with another ship class for very similar role.

I sometimes use 2 tanker classes. Smaller and faster one that usually transports fuel from harvesters to colony or between colonies plus works as a fuel rat. And a much bigger and slower one with armour, some CIWS, a lot more fuel capacity to refuel fleet and also has rescue ability for survivors (I hate having extra ship for that). Works like charm.
Posted by: Zincat
« on: June 07, 2020, 04:06:04 AM »

But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station  ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous?   :o

Jokes aside, the question in interesting. With the fact that we now need a refueling system for fuel transfer and can build these stations with industry, I believe it does make sense to have at least some fuel capacity and a refueling system on them, unless you're 100% sure that won't be needed. But...

I'm thinking of edge cases here, a warship or a civilian ship might get stranded close by, or your tankers be destroyed.
Since you can no longer transfer fuel between ships normally, having this capability on stations make sense. It can serve as a last ditch alternative in case you need it, and the cost to have this alternative is negligible compared to the cost of the station itself.

This is of course only true with large or very large stations. In case smller stations are used, then yes the added cost could be significant.

... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
Posted by: skoormit
« on: June 06, 2020, 06:24:26 PM »

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.

Since we both seem happy to whittle away at this exceedingly fine point, I'll follow up on this.

You provide an interesting alternative.
A tanker does provide a lot more flexibility. It can go off and refuel itself if needed, or go refill an empty fleet, or perform an emergency lifepod rescue, among other things.

Let's suppose our station has 500 orbital mining modules (plus the de rigueur bridge and engineering space).

In my Add-Fuel-To-Huge-Stations plan, I add a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large.
Station weight and cost:  2,541,848 tons; 67,353 BP.

In your Fuel-Tankers-Sold-Separately plan, nothing is added to the station.
Station weight and cost:  2,540,317 tons; 67,326.9 BP.

My extra cost is 26.1BP per station.
My station weighs .06% more. Effectively zero change in tug speed.

Let's say a cheap tanker has a single size-25 engine @30% power, plus a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large (same as I put on my station).
At Improved Nuclear Pulse tech, the engine costs 11.25 BP. The tanker moves 1492km/s and has a nominal range of 2,871.4Bkm.
It's not a great design for long-range fuel hauling (too much fuel burned vs hauled on long trips) or for military fleet logistics (too slow, too small). But it is cheap, and if our only intended use is to park it near our orbital fleets, it's fine.
Tanker weight and cost:  2,513 tons; 72.7 BP.

You wouldn't quite be able to afford one with the savings from two stations--you'd need ~2.8. But for what I assume was top-of-the-head, back-of-the-napkin guesstimating, you were close enough to be called correct.

There is the cost of the shipyard to consider.
2400 BP is quite a hole to crawl out of.
If you are making this shipyard just to avoid putting fuel tanks on big stations, I'd say it's never going to be worth it.
But the shipyard employs a quarter-million workers. If you have more workers than you have others uses for, this is a boon. You make worker taxes from it.
(If you have a worker shortage, on the other hand, this is a problem. Also, please tell me how you manage to have a worker shortage. I can never create jobs fast enough in my empires.)

At the end of the day, it probably just comes down to playstyle. I like the simplicity of having an emergency fuel tank on my orbital stations. I have enough other tankers moving around my systems that the extra flexibility of parking a cheap tanker with my orbital fleet isn't going to add much value.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 05, 2020, 05:52:24 PM »

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.

That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:

TugRange  * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)

Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)
Point.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: June 05, 2020, 05:21:32 PM »

As the others said:  TugRange  * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)

That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:

TugRange  * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)

Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)
Posted by: skoormit
« on: June 05, 2020, 05:14:30 PM »

@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight.  That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.

On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 05, 2020, 04:50:39 PM »

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure.  ;D
In fairness, using SM mode as intended takes some getting used to.  It is a completely different mentality than most games, akin to the GM console mode in some old RPGs like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

90-95% engine is about what a tug should be, with the ratio improving as they get larger.  I just wish that I could turn half of them off when the tug is transiting unloaded to save fuel.

As the others said:  TugRange  * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)

@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight.  That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: June 05, 2020, 04:44:30 PM »

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.

I usually have 2 of them at most, and I could probably do fine with a single one too (the second one is basically *just in case* and for redundancy).

I like cutting down on micro, which means building BIG. Tugs tie in nicely into this, since even though such tug is expensive, the more stations I get the better value it ends up being. And while my Terraformer might end up being 2.5mt+, he is also about 3-4x bigger than Sorium Harvester and 5 times bigger than orbital Miner, so nothing bigger should ever need tugging. Thankfully  ;D

Edit:
I usually don't use Orbital Habs. If I ever get there (needs long enough game or good conditions for it to happen) it certainly would be much bigger. I remember the 13mt one felt kinda small  ;D

Edit2:
Thanks everyone for the math, I hate math so much appreciated.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: June 05, 2020, 11:35:02 AM »

One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure.  ;D

So you are using a 100kT tug to move a 2500kT (= 2.5MT) station.
The station is 25x the size of the tug, so when you are moving the station you are using fuel at 26x your normal rate.

So for a round trip of distance D each way, you are spending 26x normal fuel to tow the station there, and 1x normal fuel to tow the station back.
This would be equivalent to spending normal fuel to travel D distance 27 times.
So, divide your tug's range (as reported in the Class Design) by 27.
That's the maximum distance your tug can reach while towing a station, and still have enough fuel to return.

You can increase that operational range by adding some fuel tanks and a refueling module to the station.
On a station of that size, you can add quite a bit of fuel for just a tiny percentage of the cost of the station.
Make sure to mark the station design as a tanker, and give it an appropriate minimum fuel amount. If you otherwise do not intend to use the station for refuelling, make the minimum fuel amount 1 so that it doesn't slurp up fuel every time you build one. Then, each time you build one, give it refuel orders at the planet, and cut it off when it has the fuel you need for this particular towing mission.
Posted by: Ulzgoroth
« on: June 05, 2020, 10:51:44 AM »

One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure.  ;D
Should be really simple actually, all the engine math is when you look at it.

Range for a loaded tug should be equal to the unloaded tug's range times the tug mass divided by the combined mass of tug and payload. Just like speed!
Posted by: smoelf
« on: June 05, 2020, 10:45:27 AM »

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.
Posted by: Ri0Rdian
« on: June 05, 2020, 10:25:25 AM »

It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.

Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?

This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.

Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.

This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.

Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.

Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure.  ;D