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Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 09, 2020, 02:13:23 PM »

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.

"I would rather be first in that little fighter than second in that deathstar" once said a famous Space Roman.
True, but the guys on the star destroyers tended to outlive both.
Posted by: Thrake
« on: June 09, 2020, 03:56:07 AM »

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.

"I would rather be first in that little fighter than second in that deathstar" once said a famous Space Roman.
Posted by: Droll
« on: June 08, 2020, 09:50:05 AM »

I was thinking in terms of buoyant forces. Any ship would need to displace sufficient volume of the fluid in which it is immersed to be able to float. Buoyancy is the bridge between ship mass and ship volume and any equipment on board a ship will affect the overall ship displacement volume.  If one considers the vacuum of space to be extremely low density hydrogen gas instead of true vacuum, one might be interested in working out how large a ship would need to be to float on a hypothetical ocean of liquid hydrogen.
Mass*gravity, and buoyant forces simply don't exist in free-fall, which is what a ballistic orbit is.

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.

This is exactly what I am referring too. In one of my games as a way of handling PPV I would build 100s of these 400t missile defense satellites. Their commander priority was set to lowest which meant that every one of my important ships/fighters got their commanders but none of the capital ships were getting their bridge crews unless they were set to "senior officer" which means they had commanders fill bridge positions instead.

And no I do not want commodores captaining every ship either.
This brings up another point:  Priority for secondary positions.  In many navies officers are expected to have XO experience before they are assigned their own command, so there is an argument for filling secondary positions before command of lower priority ships.  I think Steve didn't do that precisely so that fighters would get pilots, but a way to set those priorities might help some people.  The big question of course is how to set it up so that: A) it works and B) people can understand how it works.

The best way IMO to do that is add a checkbox "exclude class from auto assignment". This would prevent my defense satellite spam from being an officer sink.
Another way is to allow the player to set bridge officer priorities as well as commander priority in the misc tab of class design. If a ship has higher bridge priority than the commander priority of another ship then bridge crew is prioritized first.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 08, 2020, 12:35:12 AM »

I was thinking in terms of buoyant forces. Any ship would need to displace sufficient volume of the fluid in which it is immersed to be able to float. Buoyancy is the bridge between ship mass and ship volume and any equipment on board a ship will affect the overall ship displacement volume.  If one considers the vacuum of space to be extremely low density hydrogen gas instead of true vacuum, one might be interested in working out how large a ship would need to be to float on a hypothetical ocean of liquid hydrogen.
Mass*gravity, and buoyant forces simply don't exist in free-fall, which is what a ballistic orbit is.

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.

This is exactly what I am referring too. In one of my games as a way of handling PPV I would build 100s of these 400t missile defense satellites. Their commander priority was set to lowest which meant that every one of my important ships/fighters got their commanders but none of the capital ships were getting their bridge crews unless they were set to "senior officer" which means they had commanders fill bridge positions instead.

And no I do not want commodores captaining every ship either.
This brings up another point:  Priority for secondary positions.  In many navies officers are expected to have XO experience before they are assigned their own command, so there is an argument for filling secondary positions before command of lower priority ships.  I think Steve didn't do that precisely so that fighters would get pilots, but a way to set those priorities might help some people.  The big question of course is how to set it up so that: A) it works and B) people can understand how it works.
Posted by: Droll
« on: June 06, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.

This is exactly what I am referring too. In one of my games as a way of handling PPV I would build 100s of these 400t missile defense satellites. Their commander priority was set to lowest which meant that every one of my important ships/fighters got their commanders but none of the capital ships were getting their bridge crews unless they were set to "senior officer" which means they had commanders fill bridge positions instead.

And no I do not want commodores captaining every ship either.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 06, 2020, 02:10:08 PM »

A test fighter in my game for example need 30t living space for 20 people for a 3 month deployment operation... it would not be very reasonable to think that 30 cubic meters is anywhere near enough for that. That is what 15 square meters of space to live on roughly.

The bridge of most ships are about 50t which would be about 25 square meters or a 5*5 room, that is VERY small as you need all the equipment in there too... not just the people working there.
Submarine crews have been crammed into pretty small spaces for a few months at a time. 1.5 cubic meters per person would certainly be tight, but if you throw in hot-bunking it's probably possible. Well, provided you're ignoring food stores. Three months of preserved food is probably going to put that over the edge.

The bridge is easier - since (small) ships work without a bridge, most of the fundamental control equipment must not be coming out of the bridge tonnage at all.

Submarines are a pretty good example and even if they are cramped the crew don't live in 1.5 cubic meters... you don't only count their sleeping quarters but all living space on the ship. A fighter and FAC also include all of the working space as well into this space. It also include ALL the space for the equipment, bulkheads, water and life support machinery etc. So perhaps two third or as little as half of the space is actual space for the crew to move around in, tops.

I think I remember that Steve said something a few years ago about using submarines and living space as one of the measurements for the space needed for space ship in Aurora so he clearly have thought this through more than once.

Submarines have allot more space than 1.5 cubic meters for the crew to live and work on, even in a small diesel submarine.

If you are dedicated to determining the level of reality of Aurora, you might consider historical airship designs, such as those used in the early 20th century. In that context, the volume consideration based on liquid hydrogen is much more relevant and interesting than for submarines immersed in water.

I was thinking in terms of buoyant forces. Any ship would need to displace sufficient volume of the fluid in which it is immersed to be able to float. Buoyancy is the bridge between ship mass and ship volume and any equipment on board a ship will affect the overall ship displacement volume.  If one considers the vacuum of space to be extremely low density hydrogen gas instead of true vacuum, one might be interested in working out how large a ship would need to be to float on a hypothetical ocean of liquid hydrogen.
Posted by: Zincat
« on: June 06, 2020, 05:31:39 AM »

Back to the main topic XD

I more or less agree with Jorgen here. In fact, I feel that the game may be TOO forgiving in terms of officers and such. The natural counter to that is building more academies, which you should do anyway. If it irks you to have unassigned commanders, you can imagine that they are occupied in training or low level administrative positions.

I am, however, 100% an RPer, so I can totally understand why people could want the possibility to avoid commanders in this situation.

So, after reading everything, I'd say my answer is:
Should fighters need commanders? Generally yes, within the confines of the mechanics Steve made. "Fighters" are actually pretty large and have a two digits crew in most cases, so having a commander, someone responsible for the ship, makes sense here

Could we have a toggable system where certain classes or sizes or whatever do not have a commander? (To roleplay automated crafts or whatever). I'm all for it if Steve is interested to code it.
But imo, it cannot be the default/only option, because the mechanics of Aurora imply that a fighter is a craft big enough and with enough crew that it generally makes sense to for it to have a commander.

I would not mind a more granular option for assigning commanders though.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 06, 2020, 05:21:10 AM »

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?

Yes... but officers still prioritise commanding a vessel over commanding a secondary position on a capital ship. At least I'm sure that is what happens.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: June 06, 2020, 05:13:49 AM »

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

I thought it was already possible to do this by setting the Commander Priority of your larger ships to be higher than that of the fighters. Haven't tested it myself but doesn't this work?
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 06, 2020, 05:02:52 AM »

but in the end, the real reason is that George Lucas thought that big numbers are cooler than small numbers.

I disagree. I think the reason is because it's much more relatable to real world fighters airplanes which from WW1 until today have almost all of them been single pilot planes.

If you look at star wars in general the genius about it is that all locations, characters and vehicles are in some way instantly relatable to real world counterparts which helps massively to build immersion and feel attached to the world.

I think that you are both right... of course... when you make a movie everything need to be relatable to something or the audience will not get what the makers are trying to convey which most of the time is a feeling of some kind.

The enormous size of big capital ships IS cool and give a certain feeling... the problem comes when you try to back fill their use after the fact. These ships are so massive that it is almost ridiculous. If you ever tried to make a ship that massive in Aurora you could fit so much stuff in it that it becomes unreal. From an Aurora perspective such large ships make very little sense. The capabilities of these ships from the lore simply don't make them justice in comparison with the smaller ships, such as the Corellian corvette above that have allot more realistic proportions from an Aurora perspective.

Now. getting back to "fighters" in Aurora is that I don't actually like the term fighter for the reason it give people the wrong impression for what they really are... small space ships.

I think that missile fighters have way too few crew than for example a beam fighter that usually need something like 15-20 crew (unless it is a Gauss fighter). Box launcher require no crew, small missile fire-controls does not require crew and other small sensors does not require crew either. In my opinion these things should require crew to operate, even box launchers given the size of these system should need at least some engineers to maintain. Sensors certainly should need crew to both operate and maintain even if very small, at least one crew per system you attach no matter how small.

I do agree that you should be able to opt out of using commanding officers on small crafts in favour of other more important positions such as executive officer or commander of a CIC on a capital ship. Fighter should have the lowest of priorities followed by FAC and then as bridge crew of capital ships. It is is irritating when a fighter gets commanded before you get a CIC officer on your most important ships for example.

Sure you can solve it with more Academies and you probably should build enough of them, but sometimes pure chance will make sure that some skills are not distributed in enough quantities so there might not be enough tactical officers and most of the ones you have goes to useless fighter positions instead. So you always need to over produce officers so you have the ones you really need not just enough of them.

It would at least be good if you could set the priorities our self which positions are the most important.

Now... I might also think that in the same spirit of balance one should perhaps think about the implication of building thousands of small stations and fighters before doing that in the first place as well. Sometimes building larger vessels or stations is what you should do to preserve good leadership, the same things goes for ships. Large ships will be able to much better use good leadership... so either you match the Academies with the amount of ships you build or you will sit there with lots of ships and stations but no good officers to command them.
When you expand your fleet you must also make sure you expand your academies as well to fit the fleet you build. So if you build hundreds or thousands of small ships/fighters/stations you need to match that with even more Academies as well.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: June 06, 2020, 04:36:55 AM »

Star Wars sizes have no reason aside from rule of cool. The sizes came first, then afterward few nerds were hired to come up with the filling for the ships. To be fair to them, they came up with a lot of good reasons why the SW ships are the way they are but in the end, the real reason is that George Lucas thought that big numbers are cooler than small numbers.

I disagree. I think the reason is because it's much more relatable to real world fighters airplanes which from WW1 until today have almost all of them been single pilot planes.

If you look at star wars in general the genius about it is that all locations, characters and vehicles are in some way instantly relatable to real world counterparts which helps massively to build immersion and feel attached to the world.


Edit: For the same reason I really love to have leaders start their Career as a fighter commander and work their way up to one day command an entire Carrier Strike group. It feels relatable to how things work in the real world.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 06, 2020, 04:33:16 AM »

A test fighter in my game for example need 30t living space for 20 people for a 3 month deployment operation... it would not be very reasonable to think that 30 cubic meters is anywhere near enough for that. That is what 15 square meters of space to live on roughly.

The bridge of most ships are about 50t which would be about 25 square meters or a 5*5 room, that is VERY small as you need all the equipment in there too... not just the people working there.
Submarine crews have been crammed into pretty small spaces for a few months at a time. 1.5 cubic meters per person would certainly be tight, but if you throw in hot-bunking it's probably possible. Well, provided you're ignoring food stores. Three months of preserved food is probably going to put that over the edge.

The bridge is easier - since (small) ships work without a bridge, most of the fundamental control equipment must not be coming out of the bridge tonnage at all.

Submarines are a pretty good example and even if they are cramped the crew don't live in 1.5 cubic meters... you don't only count their sleeping quarters but all living space on the ship. A fighter and FAC also include all of the working space as well into this space. It also include ALL the space for the equipment, bulkheads, water and life support machinery etc. So perhaps two third or as little as half of the space is actual space for the crew to move around in, tops.

I think I remember that Steve said something a few years ago about using submarines and living space as one of the measurements for the space needed for space ship in Aurora so he clearly have thought this through more than once.

Submarines have allot more space than 1.5 cubic meters for the crew to live and work on, even in a small diesel submarine.

If you are dedicated to determining the level of reality of Aurora, you might consider historical airship designs, such as those used in the early 20th century. In that context, the volume consideration based on liquid hydrogen is much more relevant and interesting than for submarines immersed in water.

To be honest this make no sense what so ever as the two have no relation with each other.

One is the scale at which the game is considering the ship, the other is the space which crew need for living and the space needed for all the equipment and material such as bulkheads and life support.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: June 06, 2020, 12:56:41 AM »

Star Wars sizes have no reason aside from rule of cool. The sizes came first, then afterward few nerds were hired to come up with the filling for the ships. To be fair to them, they came up with a lot of good reasons why the SW ships are the way they are but in the end, the real reason is that George Lucas thought that big numbers are cooler than small numbers.
Posted by: SpikeTheHobbitMage
« on: June 05, 2020, 11:43:54 PM »

Honestly it doesn't matter to me whether or not fighters need or dont need commanders - I wan't the ability to exclude specific classes from auto assignment so if I have 100s of defence satellites in orbit of a planet my lieutenants don't get taken up by them. Its not a problem for commanding officers but since auto assignment considers command positions over bridge crew it hampers my ability to field tactical officers etc.
What I would go for is priory 0 taking surplus officers and immediately giving them up when a better post opens up, and negative priority not getting anyone assigned.

Honestly it doesn't matter to me whether or not fighters need or dont need commanders - I wan't the ability to exclude specific classes from auto assignment so if I have 100s of defence satellites in orbit of a planet my lieutenants don't get taken up by them. Its not a problem for commanding officers but since auto assignment considers command positions over bridge crew it hampers my ability to field tactical officers etc.

Why not just build more military academies? Then you would have more lieutenants?
Then there would be hundreds of lieutenants with no job openings when they get promoted from do-nothing positions.  There is the number of academies needed and the needless expense of building them.  Ships that are RPed as unmanned shouldn't have officers assigned to them.  The problem isn't that there aren't enough lieutenants, but that not every ship should have one.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 05, 2020, 07:07:54 PM »

Honestly it doesn't matter to me whether or not fighters need or dont need commanders - I wan't the ability to exclude specific classes from auto assignment so if I have 100s of defence satellites in orbit of a planet my lieutenants don't get taken up by them. Its not a problem for commanding officers but since auto assignment considers command positions over bridge crew it hampers my ability to field tactical officers etc.

Why not just build more military academies? Then you would have more lieutenants?