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Posted by: SteveAlt
« on: April 27, 2009, 07:54:39 AM »

Quote from: "Beersatron"
Could you squeeze in another Size 1 missile fire control on the Vilknarma? That way you could set it up so that they control 4 launchers each and then have the PD set to 4vs1?

Which actually leads me on to my own question for Steve: when PD is set to 4vs1 does that mean that 4 PD missiles will try to target 1 incoming ship killer missile OR that 4 PD missiles will attack 1 salvo or ship killer missiles?

OR, none of the above  :shock:
4 to 1 means that the number of missiles directed against one incoming salvo will be four times the number in that salvo. So assuming an incoming salvo of 12, your point defence will keep launching until it has 48 anti-missiles in flight. If you are launching anti-missiles in salvos of 10, for example, the first four salvos will be full and the fifth will be just 8 missiles. If the first of those salvos intercepts the incoming and destroys just one of them you will now have 38 missiles in flight vs an incoming salvo of 11. The next anti-missile launch will therefore be 6 missiles so you have 44 in flight vs 11.

Steve
Posted by: Starkiller
« on: April 17, 2009, 09:22:15 PM »

I noted that too. I've battled Precursors twice now, and they seem to have powerful shields and armour. Their laser weapons are strong, but I've just finished
research on Far Ultraviolet Lasers, so I can match them. I neglected missle research in favour of beam weapons, so Precursor ships have a HUGE advantage
there, and I ignored ECM and ECCM entirely, which might have been a mistake. The only area where they were strangely lacking was PD. Once you got by the
ECM, armour and heavy shielding, no PD that I could see. Still, with all the passive defenses, if they'd had PD as well, they would've been unbeatable.

Kurt, I tend to keep my passive defense light, because so far, I've only met Precursor ships and they are REALLY fast. Difference is, they are fast with
VERY heavy passive defense. I'm not advanced enough yet to have heavy weapons, passive defenses, and speed, so I had to make some choices. To use
heavy weapons would increase my tonnage fast, thus seriously reducing my speed. I would imagine that my high speed assisted in some Precursor missles
missing altogether. :) Shields don't take up much room, but armour still does, so I had to skimp on those.

Eric
Posted by: Cassaralla
« on: April 17, 2009, 02:08:28 PM »

After having faced off against two NPRs that used gauss cannon turrets to great effect as anti missile platforms, I used both tactics.  Small launchers with fast cycle time and larger launchers aiming at a waypoint and gathering several salvoes into one.  My findings . . .

 - The small launchers did fine if they targeted the escort ships first, otherwise the fast cycling gauss turrets devastated my salvo density on every intercept.

 - The large salvo overwhelmed the gauss turrets massively and I ended up with massive overkill.  90 of 500 missiles ended up with no targets.


So, both tactics proved successful but the small launchers cost me a lot more missiles to destroy a fleet.  Although the missiles were cheaper I still recovered my stocks faster with the massed salvo tactic.


Then I found a Precursor.  Used the massed salvo tactic and wasted over 300 missiles as they apparently had no PD at all . . .
Posted by: Kurt
« on: April 17, 2009, 12:30:38 PM »

Quote from: "Starkiller"
Well, I won my fight against the six precursor vessels. I got pounded with long range salvos, while their ECM kept my long range missles to
half their range. I was testing four difference battlecruiser designs to see how they functioned in combat. The result actually surprised me.
All four had point defense suites, if they hadn't, the fleet would have been destroyed before getting into missle range.

The first design is a modified Revenge class BC. In the battle, her PD lasers were of limited use due to a tracking speed much too low
to effectively track Precursor missles. The 20cm lasers never got into range, though they were of some VERY limited use in PD mode.

snip ship designs

This was fun for sure, and we succeeded in capturing the system. There is a thermal 10 base on the first planet. Is it possible to
capture it? BTW, Steve, they have been leaving lifepods when destroyed. (Now where did I put those bamboo strips?)

Eric

Hmmm....I noticed that your ships are generally much faster than mine, but have way lighter passive defenses.  My ships tend to either focus on armor or shields, or a combination of both, and in all cases they tend to have more tonnage devoted to them than your designs.  It would be interesting to have a battle between my designs and yours.  Yours would be able to dictate the range, as they are substantially faster, but if mine can get within range of their weapons I suspect yours would suffer.  

You have a very good point about rate of fire and the utility of the smaller missile launchers that can throw larger salvos faster, however...I have found that with larger launchers with longer reload times it can be very useful to launch several salvoes combined as one against the enemy by targeting waypoints short of the enemy fleet and assembling individual salvoes there before sending them against their targets.  A five-missile salvo of size eight missiles might be easy to intercept, but a thirty missile salvo composed of those same missiles is going to be devastating.  Granted it will take longer to assemble, and in the meantime the other guy is launching his small missiles.   Hmmmm....

Kurt
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: April 17, 2009, 12:28:37 PM »

Quote from: "Brian"
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.  

You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.
This has changed with 4.0b.  missile vs missile now need to take in to account the armor of the attacking missile.  If your enemy armors thier missile even a little bit this will have a major impact on your interceptions chance of success. (1 point of armor will meen that a successfull intercept now requires twice as many missiles to succeed.)

Really?  I missed that someplace.  Not doubting, I missing things like this regularly and then get bit in the ass.   :wink:


For beam PD I still prefer the Gauss Cannon.  Yes they are mass intensive and missile armor delutes thier effectiveness.  But a quad mount with rof of at least 3 gives you 12 100% shots if your using the 6hs version.  

In my games I do cheat though.  I've modified the tech table for GC size and turret speeds and cost.  I've only got the GC through 1hs with that being 100%.  Turret speeds are 4x beam fire control speeds and matched the turret cost to the same level as beam fire control.
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: April 17, 2009, 11:28:47 AM »

Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.  

You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.
This has changed with 4.0b.  missile vs missile now need to take in to account the armor of the attacking missile.  If your enemy armors thier missile even a little bit this will have a major impact on your interceptions chance of success. (1 point of armor will meen that a successfull intercept now requires twice as many missiles to succeed.)
Quote
Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control.  Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.

For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range.  Followed closely by agility.  Balance both for optimal intercept chance.

You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.   :D
Agree with everything here.  I usually use about .01 space points for the missiles fuel.
Quote
Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense.  Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.

Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.

Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.

Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better.  Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.

The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.  

As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD.  With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.
I use a couple of different ideas for my point defense.  I prefer to use the largest beam weapon that has a 5 second cycle, up to 15cm.  This is because the extra space required is fairly small (3 vs 4 hs) and the extra weapons then become a very handy secondary battery vs enemy ships.  This is particularily true if I am using mesons for my beam pd as any enemy ship which gets into range is in trouble.  The main drawback on this is you have less total pd to work with.
Early on railguns actually work better than lasers, or mesons for pd even though they do not get to be turret mounted.  A 10cm railgun is very short ranged but has the same overall percentage of hits as a turret mounted laser or meson.  It can get even better chance if the ship mounting it is faster than the base fire control speed that has been reasearched.  The other reason that railguns are better early on is that they only have 2 tracks of reasearch to stay current while the lasers and mesons also require the turret tracking speed to be reasearched.
Example.  Base fire control speed is 3000km/s, maximum tracking speed for fire control is 12000.  If the ship speed is 4000 and has a maching fire control the railgun has a tracking speed of 4000km/s and gets 4 shots every 5 seconds.  This would equal the chance to hit of a turreted laser with a tracking speed of 16000km/s.  
I agree with the rest of his statements about beam point defense weapons.  The only time I have ever taken the pd off of final defense was when the incomming missiles were very slow in comparison to my ship speed and tracking.  If I knew that I would get 3 shots off then it becomes worth it to take a chance on a non-optimal range final shot.
A final note, once I have my fire control up to a long enough range I will often make a x4 speed x.25 range unit for a backup fire control in case my main pd fire control gets hit.  While it usually has a crappy chance to hit because of its short range, it only takes up 1hs and is therefore a handy backup.

Brian
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: April 17, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »

Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.  

You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.

Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control.  Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.

For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range.  Followed closely by agility.  Balance both for optimal intercept chance.

You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.   :D


Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense.  Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.

Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.

Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.

Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better.  Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.

The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.  

As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD.  With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.
Posted by: Starkiller
« on: April 17, 2009, 12:30:07 AM »

Well, for the battle, her PD launchers were set to area defence. From the look of it, they simply fired at any salvo of ship killers that entered
their range. They often managed to take out as much as half the shipkillers with the first two salvos. Of the four BC classes in the battle, only
the Vilknarma BCs came through without a scratch. Though to be honest, I don't know if they were targeted or not, but even if they weren't, it's
thanks to their PD missles that any of the others survived. When the Precursor shipkillers came in, each salvo was in 3 groups of 13 missles, size
5, warhead strength 12. By the time they reach the ships, PD had knocked out about 2/3 to 3/4 of them, the Revenge BCs lasers got from 1-4 more.
Then they hit. If my initial plan had worked, they would never have hit me as often as they did, but I made a REAL boner of a mistake.

I had a scout that snuck in and orbited one of the planets, using just the passives, I kept track of them. I sent the fleet through the warp point REAL
slow, intending to sneak up on them, get within missle range, light up the actives and FIRE. Alas, I had a conditional order set that if contact detected,
turn actives on! :)
I won, but I could have won even better if I had remembered that bloody conditional. I set it that way for warp point defense. Heh. Oh well. ^_-

Greywolf
Posted by: Beersatron
« on: April 16, 2009, 11:23:40 PM »

Could you squeeze in another Size 1 missile fire control on the Vilknarma? That way you could set it up so that they control 4 launchers each and then have the PD set to 4vs1?

Which actually leads me on to my own question for Steve: when PD is set to 4vs1 does that mean that 4 PD missiles will try to target 1 incoming ship killer missile OR that 4 PD missiles will attack 1 salvo or ship killer missiles?

OR, none of the above  :shock:
Posted by: Starkiller
« on: April 16, 2009, 08:10:37 PM »

Well, I won my fight against the six precursor vessels. I got pounded with long range salvos, while their ECM kept my long range missles to
half their range. I was testing four difference battlecruiser designs to see how they functioned in combat. The result actually surprised me.
All four had point defense suites, if they hadn't, the fleet would have been destroyed before getting into missle range.

The first design is a modified Revenge class BC. In the battle, her PD lasers were of limited use due to a tracking speed much too low
to effectively track Precursor missles. The 20cm lasers never got into range, though they were of some VERY limited use in PD mode.

Code: [Select]
Revenge class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1256 Crew     4364 BP      TCS 240  TH 611.8  EM 450
7283 km/s     Armour 3-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 11/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 64
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 227 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (19)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.2 billion km   (73 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (4x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Single 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 160,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Fire Control S04 80-12500 H50 (5)    Max Range: 160,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     94 88 81 75 69 62 56 50 44 38
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-0 (3)     Total Power Output 33.3    Armour 0    Exp 4%

Active Search Sensor S56-R70 (50%)Mk2 (1)     GPS 3920     Range 39.2m km    Resolution 70
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km


Next up is the Vendetta class BC, with both PD missles and size 4 anti-ship missles. Her anti-ship missle batteries did well, though the slow firing
rate couldn't match up to the Precursor ships, which had size 5, strength 12 missles with a 5 second ROF. (OUCHIE!) Also, her point defense was too
light to be very effective, and as such, she and her sisters got pounded hard.

Code: [Select]
Vendetta class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 1 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Size 4 Missile Launcher Mk2 (8)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 4 Anti-ship Missile mk3 (151)  Speed: 23,200 km/s   End: 61.4m    Range: 85.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 178 / 106 / 53

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Next up is the Vengeance class BC. Size 5 with long range, but the same limited warhead as Vendetta's size 4s. Missle batteries didn't do too badly, but.
too light, too few, and too long a ROF to be effective, though the PD suite fared better.

Code: [Select]
Vengeance class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 5 Missile Launcher mk2 (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 25
Size 1 Missile Launcher (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (158)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 5 Anti-ship Missile (112)  Speed: 28,200 km/s   End: 51.1m    Range: 86.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 188 / 112 / 56

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

It was the Vilknarma class BC that surprised me with it's effectiveness. Good sized PD suite and 14 light anti-ship batteries. She put up a withering
anti-missle fire, and her 14 size 2 anti-ship batteries with a 10 second ROF, put up a much denser missle storm, and most struck their targets.
Individually nothing, but as one 14 missle salvo after another....

Code: [Select]
Vilknarma class Battlecruiser    12000 tons     1197 Crew     3706.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 644  EM 450
7666 km/s     Armour 1-46     Shields 15-300     Sensors 88/88/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152%    IFR: 16%    Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP    Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20)    Power 92    Efficiency 0.65    Signature 32.2    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 46.1 billion km   (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  75 Litres per day

Size 1 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Size 2 Missile Launcher Mk2 (14)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 2 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (302)  Speed: 22,400 km/s   End: 67m    Range: 90m km   WH: 2    Size: 2    TH: 149 / 89 / 44

Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1)     GPS 8820     Range 88.2m km    Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This was fun for sure, and we succeeded in capturing the system. There is a thermal 10 base on the first planet. Is it possible to
capture it? BTW, Steve, they have been leaving lifepods when destroyed. (Now where did I put those bamboo strips?)

Eric
Posted by: Cassaralla
« on: April 16, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »

Sensor bases?  Well that explains why my geosurvey scouts find nothing on the two moons I have small thermal contacts on. . . . . oh well, time to call up a bombardment cruiser and finish off the pesky Precursor for good.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: April 16, 2009, 04:51:56 PM »

Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases

Steve

Should I bother trying to land troops on a planet with a sensor base?  Don't tell me if the Precursors will react - I want to be surprised :-)  Instead, I'm asking if I can capture the bases through the ground combat mechanisms if I drop troops in.  Also, is there a way to shoot at them?  I tried detecting them with active sensors and got nothing - I don't have any warships in the system so I don't know if I can lock them up as populations...

Thanks,
John
Posted by: SteveAlt
« on: April 16, 2009, 12:51:42 PM »

Quote from: "Beersatron"
Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases

Steve
Posted by: Beersatron
« on: April 16, 2009, 12:32:30 PM »

Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Beersatron"
How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?! :)
NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.

Steve

I crashed researched-built a small Collier and resupplied my two surviving CLEs with AMMs. Tried chasing the Enemy ships down but they just ran away once I entered their ASS range.

So, I brought in some Geo and Grav survey ships and went to work. I have thus far found two contacts on moons, one a Thermal 5 and the other a Thermal 10. Destroyed them using the CLEs. The thing is, I still get the event reports stating that there is an alien colony in the system but I have searched every cluster of planets and moons with 40km range ASS and the Geo ship so I am a bit lost.

Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?

Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Posted by: SteveAlt
« on: April 16, 2009, 08:46:57 AM »

Quote from: "Beersatron"
How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?! :)
NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.

Steve