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Posted by: TMaekler
« on: July 14, 2020, 01:20:37 AM »

My solution is to manually parse my admin commands once every 5 or 10 years, assigning new leaders as necessary. Yes, it is tedious, but it has become part of my creative process for generating compelling stories. I lose out occasionally on some administrative bonuses but overall it is easier to manage than if I were to replace each administrator as he/she retires.

A game-driven interrupt is not required in my opinion.

That is what I am doing as well. Just check every now and then. Role-play reasoning: It just took them so long to find someone out of the ordinary...

I though support the idea of giving us the option to choose which messages should interrupt the flow and which shouldn't; that would be really nice :-)
Posted by: liveware
« on: July 13, 2020, 11:48:37 PM »

Manual assignment

Interrupt when relevant commands are lost due health/promotion

Sectors
Admin Command
Planetary Governor
Academies

The problem is that not everyone will want an interrupt for those. At some point I will add optional interrupts for some events but leave some as fixed interrupts

My solution is to manually parse my admin commands once every 5 or 10 years, assigning new leaders as necessary. Yes, it is tedious, but it has become part of my creative process for generating compelling stories. I lose out occasionally on some administrative bonuses but overall it is easier to manage than if I were to replace each administrator as he/she retires.

A game-driven interrupt is not required in my opinion.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: July 12, 2020, 05:01:00 PM »

Manual assignment

Interrupt when relevant commands are lost due health/promotion

Sectors
Admin Command
Planetary Governor
Academies

The problem is that not everyone will want an interrupt for those. At some point I will add optional interrupts for some events but leave some as fixed interrupts

That I understand, however what are the chances of a civilian admin to be killed and or retire? We looking at a possible 5% per year? Also that Admin should be assigned to a position so you could potentially going on 10 year without an interruption.

However, looking at the report and interrupt yourself or even worse check every single command every year can become pretty tedious fast, at least for me. Also if not for all position mentioned I still believe that Admin Commands should be always manned, so that our fleets can always be with right hierarchy in place as it is already annoying enough to make sure all flag bridges are manned as well. I love to have them manually set and I don't want them full auto at all but, because of that, I have to know if all position are filled properly as it should be.

I have seen people creating fake fleets just to ensure the game stops every now and then so they can run a checklist ensuring all is working fine and I did steal that because is quite clever but in conclusion (and this is my point of view) I don't think we should prioritize fast turns over good management and QOL.

I can put in all the good management needed as I am already doing but without the QOL it just feels like wasted work sometimes.

PLEASE NOTE: I love and respect your work and I will go with whatever is there and you'll decide; I just wanted to give a feedback on something I already know some people wants square and some others round making it very hard to accommodate everybody.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: July 12, 2020, 07:27:01 AM »

Manual assignment

Interrupt when relevant commands are lost due health/promotion

Sectors
Admin Command
Planetary Governor
Academies

The problem is that not everyone will want an interrupt for those. At some point I will add optional interrupts for some events but leave some as fixed interrupts
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 19, 2020, 08:19:38 PM »

Do you play the game from your, the gamers, perspective OR the perspective of the people living in that world?   The choice is up to you in this game...

I play mostly as a gamer, but I make nods to the perspective of the people.
These are mostly for the fun factor, but also to make some of the strategic decision-making easier.
For example, rather than constantly assess and re-assess the strategic tradeoffs of building research labs (instead of something else immediately useful), I generally decide what percentage of total income my people want to spend for ongoing research, and I build labs at a constant percent of Earth industry to maintain research spending at the target percentage.
I also establish minimum requirements that the people have for moving population to new systems: grav survey complete, all jump points explored (and monitored by sentry platforms), all neighboring systems free of hostile presence, etc. These restrictions make my empire expand in a fashion that respects the risk perception of the people of a live empire, rather than my own as a gamer.

This sounds generally how I do most of my multi-faction games... as I need to manage many empires I will have to set up long term goals and also have rules of how quick those goals can be changed depending on the climate of the internal political stability of said faction. It also makes things allot easier as projects are not finished every few months but run over very long times, sometimes over many decades as a colony expands its own construction, infrastructure and mining efforts. I only have to check in to adjust the ratios so it produce enough construction factories versus infrastructure and mines to grow and give enough jobs to fill for increase in population.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 19, 2020, 01:57:57 PM »

I think we have to also realise that Aurora is suppose to be a "role-play" platform which sort make too much detail into allot of the government mechanic hard to implement and still allow the player themselves to decide the fate of the political climate of his planets and empire. We are suppose to imagine what limits that politics make on the development of the empire. Hom much emphasis are put into the wellbeing of the people versus the militarization of space forces or how much of an independence a colony long for and how colony government influence the structures that are built there.

If you play the game from your, the players perspective, and just do everything from your perspective then you will usually find a very efficient but sterile empire that might not reflect what you would have seen in real life, that is due to game mechanics. But here is where RP comes in if you like that sort of thing. Perhaps planetary governments and governors have their own ideas and agendas over time. Political ideas will likely change over time etc...

Right now we as players are suppose to role-play when a planet declare independence, there even is a button to turn a colony into an NPR independent colony if you like. If you want to control the colony yourself you can SM in a new faction and transfer it to there.

There is a reason why some of these things are a bit simple but there are powerful tools to mess with them. This is the reason I don't want too much detail in how population reacts to treatments and such things, it has to be kept simple and functional.

Do you play the game from your, the gamers, perspective OR the perspective of the people living in that world?   The choice is up to you in this game...

You are right of course, RP is at the heart of this game and it is probably impossible to build a perfect RP engine that will please all players. Trying to simulate a concept as broad as government is also a huge challenge and if human history is any indication, not everyone will agree on what is best in terms of government options.

I myself enjoy the naval combat aspects of the game and the ship design portion especially. Finally succeeding at building a capable battle fleet after losing battle after battle after battle against a technologically superior foe is rewarding for me. Planetary invasions follow naturally in most of my own self-made stories and so the concept of government comes up a lot in my thinking about game mechanics.

The elegance of the current system is that there really isn't any governmental-level interface at all. You basically just pick a name for your empire and that's about it, aside from assigning colonial administrators.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: June 19, 2020, 12:11:42 PM »

Do you play the game from your, the gamers, perspective OR the perspective of the people living in that world?   The choice is up to you in this game...

I play mostly as a gamer, but I make nods to the perspective of the people.
These are mostly for the fun factor, but also to make some of the strategic decision-making easier.
For example, rather than constantly assess and re-assess the strategic tradeoffs of building research labs (instead of something else immediately useful), I generally decide what percentage of total income my people want to spend for ongoing research, and I build labs at a constant percent of Earth industry to maintain research spending at the target percentage.
I also establish minimum requirements that the people have for moving population to new systems: grav survey complete, all jump points explored (and monitored by sentry platforms), all neighboring systems free of hostile presence, etc. These restrictions make my empire expand in a fashion that respects the risk perception of the people of a live empire, rather than my own as a gamer.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: June 19, 2020, 05:02:17 AM »

I think we have to also realise that Aurora is suppose to be a "role-play" platform which sort make too much detail into allot of the government mechanic hard to implement and still allow the player themselves to decide the fate of the political climate of his planets and empire. We are suppose to imagine what limits that politics make on the development of the empire. Hom much emphasis are put into the wellbeing of the people versus the militarization of space forces or how much of an independence a colony long for and how colony government influence the structures that are built there.

If you play the game from your, the players perspective, and just do everything from your perspective then you will usually find a very efficient but sterile empire that might not reflect what you would have seen in real life, that is due to game mechanics. But here is where RP comes in if you like that sort of thing. Perhaps planetary governments and governors have their own ideas and agendas over time. Political ideas will likely change over time etc...

Right now we as players are suppose to role-play when a planet declare independence, there even is a button to turn a colony into an NPR independent colony if you like. If you want to control the colony yourself you can SM in a new faction and transfer it to there.

There is a reason why some of these things are a bit simple but there are powerful tools to mess with them. This is the reason I don't want too much detail in how population reacts to treatments and such things, it has to be kept simple and functional.

Do you play the game from your, the gamers, perspective OR the perspective of the people living in that world?   The choice is up to you in this game...
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: June 19, 2020, 02:38:47 AM »

Since we barely touched the surface of the "politico" part of the game I would like to weight in both supporting what done from Steve so far and just asking for slight changes more in line with what done already and with less coding involved.

I think the aurora already handles well some things such as:

police forces - they are there and they do the job, so a militaristic dictatorship that relies on police is entirely supported
independence - colonies can already rebel if conditions are met
morale (bonus and penalties) - these are possible through overcrowding, better administrator, police, protection of the system and so on
trade - civilian needs resources and wealth
taxes - aurora does include taxation

Now what would be nice:

Adding a another modifier to the race that includes the political stability, so a more stable race for instance are more easy to sort out low morale and penalties
Morale should take also into account how rich such colony is considering the amount of people divided by the wealth generated. A poor colony is an unhappy colony
Trade should either provide stability if all resources are available or instability if one or more resources are scarce
Taxes should be modular with a standard rate set up by race which if exceeded generates penalties and if lowered generates happiness
Finally a political bonus (that simulates elections) where you receive a bonus if happiness is over a certain value at the beginning of x amount of years to be decided at start or a penalty if below

Overall I firmly believe the tools are there and should be fairly possible to add some small feature from a release to another and slowly build up the government management even more.

I am not sure I agree with your assertion that colonies are able to rebel... I have several very 'oppressed' colonies which have not rebelled despite several decades of horrible conditions.

Probably does not happen automatically, however all functions are there. Then this would also be another easy implementation.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 18, 2020, 11:44:56 PM »

I think there is a lot that could be done here. For example you might consider the option of fighting galactic wars of liberation, whereby you liberate oppressed populations from their authoritarian overlords. Or alternatively you could enslave all life in the galaxy. This should be left up to the player in my opinion. My suggestion for this mechanic is that following a 'conquest' event during a planetary invasion, the 'conquered' population should enter a reformation and the player should have the option of choosing the new government type, or alternatively have the conquered population join the player empire as some sort of imperial citizen (not necessarily a fully fledged citizen, but this should also be a player option). Some examples of citizen types for newly conquered populations might be: slaves, vassals, serfs, limited citizens, full citizens, etc... Again it should be a player choice as to how newly conquered populations are integrated into the player empire.

I definitely second the idea of being able to decide what rights each species gets in the empire what you suggested especially at the end of the quoted paragraph is actually really similar to how stellaris lets you handle things.

I am guilty of being inspired by both Stellaris and Distant Worlds in some of my contemplations of what would be best in Aurora.

Though I must admit that though both of those games are excellent, neither can hold a candle to the depth and complexity of Aurora.

Stellaris is shiny, for certain, and has quite a good musical accompaniment, but Distant Worlds beats it in terms of strategic depth.

Aurora beats both in terms of tactical and strategic depth, lacking only in shiny graphics and nice music. Graphics can be imagineered and music is available from other venues, so for me, Aurora is my top preference in the 4x catergory and will probably remain there until I develop my own version of the game... someday many moons from now.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 18, 2020, 11:42:41 PM »

Since we barely touched the surface of the "politico" part of the game I would like to weight in both supporting what done from Steve so far and just asking for slight changes more in line with what done already and with less coding involved.

I think the aurora already handles well some things such as:

police forces - they are there and they do the job, so a militaristic dictatorship that relies on police is entirely supported
independence - colonies can already rebel if conditions are met
morale (bonus and penalties) - these are possible through overcrowding, better administrator, police, protection of the system and so on
trade - civilian needs resources and wealth
taxes - aurora does include taxation

Now what would be nice:

Adding a another modifier to the race that includes the political stability, so a more stable race for instance are more easy to sort out low morale and penalties
Morale should take also into account how rich such colony is considering the amount of people divided by the wealth generated. A poor colony is an unhappy colony
Trade should either provide stability if all resources are available or instability if one or more resources are scarce
Taxes should be modular with a standard rate set up by race which if exceeded generates penalties and if lowered generates happiness
Finally a political bonus (that simulates elections) where you receive a bonus if happiness is over a certain value at the beginning of x amount of years to be decided at start or a penalty if below

Overall I firmly believe the tools are there and should be fairly possible to add some small feature from a release to another and slowly build up the government management even more.

I am not sure I agree with your assertion that colonies are able to rebel... I have several very 'oppressed' colonies which have not rebelled despite several decades of horrible conditions.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: June 18, 2020, 11:38:28 PM »

Since we barely touched the surface of the "politico" part of the game I would like to weight in both supporting what done from Steve so far and just asking for slight changes more in line with what done already and with less coding involved.

I think the aurora already handles well some things such as:

police forces - they are there and they do the job, so a militaristic dictatorship that relies on police is entirely supported
independence - colonies can already rebel if conditions are met
morale (bonus and penalties) - these are possible through overcrowding, better administrator, police, protection of the system and so on
trade - civilian needs resources and wealth
taxes - aurora does include taxation

Now what would be nice:

Adding a another modifier to the race that includes the political stability, so a more stable race for instance are more easy to sort out low morale and penalties
Morale should take also into account how rich such colony is considering the amount of people divided by the wealth generated. A poor colony is an unhappy colony
Trade should either provide stability if all resources are available or instability if one or more resources are scarce
Taxes should be modular with a standard rate set up by race which if exceeded generates penalties and if lowered generates happiness
Finally a political bonus (that simulates elections) where you receive a bonus if happiness is over a certain value at the beginning of x amount of years to be decided at start or a penalty if below

Overall I firmly believe the tools are there and should be fairly possible to add some small feature from a release to another and slowly build up the government management even more.
Posted by: Droll
« on: June 18, 2020, 08:51:14 PM »

I think there is a lot that could be done here. For example you might consider the option of fighting galactic wars of liberation, whereby you liberate oppressed populations from their authoritarian overlords. Or alternatively you could enslave all life in the galaxy. This should be left up to the player in my opinion. My suggestion for this mechanic is that following a 'conquest' event during a planetary invasion, the 'conquered' population should enter a reformation and the player should have the option of choosing the new government type, or alternatively have the conquered population join the player empire as some sort of imperial citizen (not necessarily a fully fledged citizen, but this should also be a player option). Some examples of citizen types for newly conquered populations might be: slaves, vassals, serfs, limited citizens, full citizens, etc... Again it should be a player choice as to how newly conquered populations are integrated into the player empire.

I definitely second the idea of being able to decide what rights each species gets in the empire what you suggested especially at the end of the quoted paragraph is actually really similar to how stellaris lets you handle things.
Posted by: liveware
« on: June 18, 2020, 05:02:05 PM »

But how does the player change governments in a campaign?
If a player colony declares independence how do they choose their government if it is to be different?
Will we delve into unrest caused purely by political dissidence?
Can the player subvert other NPR governments and cause rebellions?
Can I "liberate" a NPR population by force and install a matching government to make friends?
Theres so much that could be done with such a system but as mentioned it would require massive effort on Steve's part.

Some of my thoughts:

1. A UI button which gives the player the option to 'reform government' which allows for a player to change a player race's government from one type to another. This process should take some significant amount of time. During 'reformation' there should be a malus to relevant empire statistics. For example, manufacturing capacity should be dramatically reduced and possibly ships/troops respond to orders more slowly (similar to jump shock or the effects of crew training). Possibly also there is an increased chance of rebellion or secession on colonies during a reformation. If a player declares a player race colony independent, that colony should select a random government type (possibly weighted towards the original player race government type) and enters a reformation as previously discussed.

2. The game does not currently implement political dissidence, only unrest. I am not sure this system needs to change at all except that I believe that if the political stability of a colony reaches 1% or less, the colony should enter a reformation and randomly select either to remain in the current player empire or secede and start a new government. Secession and rebellion should, I think, be handled somewhat differently, with secessions being relatively peaceful and rebellions being more destructive, resulting in the destruction of ground installations, infrastructure, orbital facilities, and possibly ships and troops. Of course, one always reserves the option to declare war on a recently seceded colony, turning things more violent, but secessions in my opinion should not be inherently bloody.

3. I think that would be interesting from a RP perspective. Perhaps it would make diplomacy and espionage more engaging and rewarding than in it's current form.

4. I think there is a lot that could be done here. For example you might consider the option of fighting galactic wars of liberation, whereby you liberate oppressed populations from their authoritarian overlords. Or alternatively you could enslave all life in the galaxy. This should be left up to the player in my opinion. My suggestion for this mechanic is that following a 'conquest' event during a planetary invasion, the 'conquered' population should enter a reformation and the player should have the option of choosing the new government type, or alternatively have the conquered population join the player empire as some sort of imperial citizen (not necessarily a fully fledged citizen, but this should also be a player option). Some examples of citizen types for newly conquered populations might be: slaves, vassals, serfs, limited citizens, full citizens, etc... Again it should be a player choice as to how newly conquered populations are integrated into the player empire.

I'm fumbling around in the dark a bit here because governments have never really been implemented, even in VB. The current system seems to tie race/species to most of the things I would usually associate with government-level traits. There is probably an argument to be made for a dedicated government window, or at least a section on the race/species window. Additionally, I would expect that each colony in a particular empire would share the same form of government, otherwise I don't think 'empire' or 'colony' would really be the correct terms to use.
Posted by: Droll
« on: June 18, 2020, 04:09:43 PM »

I am actually in favor of a significantly more complex system for assigning civilian administrators. I think there is a great amount of room to grow in terms of making your governmental choices in the race window have an impact on gameplay.

For example, a democratic government might have elections every few years at each colony and elect new leaders. A republic might have a different automatic leader selection system. A monarchy would again be different. And a dictatorship different again. Etc...

This would of course take a huge amount of programming effort, so I doubt it will ever happen, but I can still dream.

I do seem to remember at least being able to chose a government type back in the VB version, though I'm not sure it had any real impact on gameplay.

In VB6 it didn't matter because the various stats weren't actually used. Governments would only affect things like xenophobia etc. so it was purely flavour.
In C# it would make a difference because of stuff like occupation resistance actually relying on stats like determination, militancy and xenophobia actually existing. As steve starts to involve the other stats I'm sure we will see further impacts.
A C# rendition of governments could also affect stuff like population growth/density, productivity and research rates. Overall allowing for more differentiation.

But how does the player change governments in a campaign?
If a player colony declares independence how do they choose their government if it is to be different?
Will we delve into unrest caused purely by political dissidence?
Can the player subvert other NPR governments and cause rebellions?
Can I "liberate" a NPR population by force and install a matching government to make friends?


Theres so much that could be done with such a system but as mentioned it would require massive effort on Steve's part.