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Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: December 03, 2020, 07:41:18 PM »

I would be interested to read why you disagree. Personally I use this system because it is easier to design both the ship and the overall doctrine. My fleet has only 3 ship sizes, 6000, 15000 and 60000 tons. It also makes it really easy to work out how many engines I need to build with industry beforehand.

Not the original commenter, but it's worth reiterating that all other things being equal, a ship with fewer engines of greater size is more fuel-efficient.

For example, given the choice between ten engines of 10 HS and 100 EP each, and two engines of 50 HS and 500 EP each, the latter set of engines will be more fuel efficient, in fact by a factor of SQRT(5). This is because the fuel efficiency includes a factor of SQRT(10/HS) where HS is the size of a single engine.

Notably, this will mean that a larger ship can use larger engines but a smaller total engine mass and still match the range and speed of a smaller ship, allowing a greater proportional payload. Given the expense of a capital ship this is often considerable as worth the cost of the extra RPs. To wit: your 60,000-ton class with 20 engines could be more than 3x as fuel-efficient with two engines giving the same total HS and EP. You may not care much about 3x range for fleet operations, but the corollary here is that you could use a lower mass fraction on engines in the first place and increase the weapons, shields, etc. while keeping the same speed and range as your 6,000-ton ships.

Both approaches can work, the single-engine-type doctrine is obviously more RP-efficient but a multiple-engine-type doctrine will get superior performance on a per-ship basis in exchange for the additional RP expenditure.

I never thought about fuel efficiency tbh, that is a good point, might be a mistake on my part, but  I got lucky with my Sol, Jupiter and Uranus had millions of Sorium each at 0.8 and 0.7 accessibility, plus the system next door has another few million. Mars and Luna also had lots of Sorium that I mined. I normally bring a few large fuel tankers with 200 million units of fuel to any operation. I think I have been lazy. I might redesign my 60,000 ton carriers. Thanks :)
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: December 03, 2020, 07:35:55 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

He is giving you the hint. If you want ships to go at same speed plus round up ships you must set ratios.

So a 1000 tons engine (you can design it) will make it easy for you to calculate ratios as per his examples. As long as you maintain them ratio you will have same speed across all your ships.

I hope it makes sense.

He is also saying that thanks to that he designs also only 1 engine, now this part I may disagree but that may go on another post.

^^ This ^^
I would be interested to read why you disagree. Personally I use this system because it is easier to design both the ship and the overall doctrine. My fleet has only 3 ship sizes, 6000, 15000 and 60000 tons. It also makes it really easy to work out how many engines I need to build with industry beforehand.

It's a clever doctrine, however, it does cut off all the FACs which are usually 1,000 tons.

In practice, a fix size of ship and engine will potentially produce a fix amount of payload. There is a point when going up in tech allows you to miniaturize your components (engines included) and achieve same performances or slightly better. This leaves room for more fuel or, better, more payload.

I am okay with my sensors ships going slower than my warships or have a lesser range too, because my warships aren't going on a hunt anyway if there are no preys in sight. once the enemy is in range I release the dogs.

The above are just 2 examples, which obviously are perfectly achievable even with your method.

For commercial engines though, I use a very similar doctrine of yours with only 1 design.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to Aurora though.

Fair enough on the FAC's. I was not planning on using them, but I did make an engine for fighters. I personally use slightly reduced power engines, so I get better fuel efficiency. I guess I don't need to go 12,000 KM/s. 10,000 is more than fast enough.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: December 03, 2020, 12:11:48 PM »

Tangential question, in C# you have "Exact Size", down to the 3rd digit … and whatever you do, you will never have a round number here. Meaning that your speed will never be a round number, but values like 1001, 2001, etc.

Any solution to that?

I use fighter fuel components, which are 1 ton.

There is also a 0.5 ton component in v1.13 for maint storage.

woohoo
Posted by: vorpal+5
« on: December 03, 2020, 06:43:08 AM »

Well I do too, but even adding 1 ton is often too big because there are 'jump' in size from armor. Or there is a trick I did not learn yet. If you always manage to get a "perfect size" down to the third digit, then I'm doing it wrong, I seldom do.

EDIT: If I design a 0.01 HS reactor (so 0.5 tons) I can indeed reach 9.9922 HS (the precision is to the 4th digit, not 3rd) and my fighter-bomber is now with a round speed. That's perhaps the trick, to have the smallest reactor possible for this kind of rounding-up.
But it's not possible to be exactly at 10 HS with duranium at least.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 03, 2020, 06:00:48 AM »

Tangential question, in C# you have "Exact Size", down to the 3rd digit … and whatever you do, you will never have a round number here. Meaning that your speed will never be a round number, but values like 1001, 2001, etc.

Any solution to that?

I use fighter fuel components, which are 1 ton.

There is also a 0.5 ton component in v1.13 for maint storage.
Posted by: vorpal+5
« on: December 03, 2020, 04:58:34 AM »

Tangential question, in C# you have "Exact Size", down to the 3rd digit … and whatever you do, you will never have a round number here. Meaning that your speed will never be a round number, but values like 1001, 2001, etc.

Any solution to that?
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: December 03, 2020, 12:18:42 AM »

I would be interested to read why you disagree. Personally I use this system because it is easier to design both the ship and the overall doctrine. My fleet has only 3 ship sizes, 6000, 15000 and 60000 tons. It also makes it really easy to work out how many engines I need to build with industry beforehand.

Not the original commenter, but it's worth reiterating that all other things being equal, a ship with fewer engines of greater size is more fuel-efficient.

For example, given the choice between ten engines of 10 HS and 100 EP each, and two engines of 50 HS and 500 EP each, the latter set of engines will be more fuel efficient, in fact by a factor of SQRT(5). This is because the fuel efficiency includes a factor of SQRT(10/HS) where HS is the size of a single engine.

Notably, this will mean that a larger ship can use larger engines but a smaller total engine mass and still match the range and speed of a smaller ship, allowing a greater proportional payload. Given the expense of a capital ship this is often considerable as worth the cost of the extra RPs. To wit: your 60,000-ton class with 20 engines could be more than 3x as fuel-efficient with two engines giving the same total HS and EP. You may not care much about 3x range for fleet operations, but the corollary here is that you could use a lower mass fraction on engines in the first place and increase the weapons, shields, etc. while keeping the same speed and range as your 6,000-ton ships.

Both approaches can work, the single-engine-type doctrine is obviously more RP-efficient but a multiple-engine-type doctrine will get superior performance on a per-ship basis in exchange for the additional RP expenditure.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:55:55 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

He is giving you the hint. If you want ships to go at same speed plus round up ships you must set ratios.

So a 1000 tons engine (you can design it) will make it easy for you to calculate ratios as per his examples. As long as you maintain them ratio you will have same speed across all your ships.

I hope it makes sense.

He is also saying that thanks to that he designs also only 1 engine, now this part I may disagree but that may go on another post.

^^ This ^^
I would be interested to read why you disagree. Personally I use this system because it is easier to design both the ship and the overall doctrine. My fleet has only 3 ship sizes, 6000, 15000 and 60000 tons. It also makes it really easy to work out how many engines I need to build with industry beforehand.

It's a clever doctrine, however, it does cut off all the FACs which are usually 1,000 tons.

In practice, a fix size of ship and engine will potentially produce a fix amount of payload. There is a point when going up in tech allows you to miniaturize your components (engines included) and achieve same performances or slightly better. This leaves room for more fuel or, better, more payload.

I am okay with my sensors ships going slower than my warships or have a lesser range too, because my warships aren't going on a hunt anyway if there are no preys in sight. once the enemy is in range I release the dogs.

The above are just 2 examples, which obviously are perfectly achievable even with your method.

For commercial engines though, I use a very similar doctrine of yours with only 1 design.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to Aurora though.
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:44:42 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

He is giving you the hint. If you want ships to go at same speed plus round up ships you must set ratios.

So a 1000 tons engine (you can design it) will make it easy for you to calculate ratios as per his examples. As long as you maintain them ratio you will have same speed across all your ships.

I hope it makes sense.

He is also saying that thanks to that he designs also only 1 engine, now this part I may disagree but that may go on another post.

^^ This ^^
I would be interested to read why you disagree. Personally I use this system because it is easier to design both the ship and the overall doctrine. My fleet has only 3 ship sizes, 6000, 15000 and 60000 tons. It also makes it really easy to work out how many engines I need to build with industry beforehand.
Posted by: Iestwyn
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:42:58 PM »

I officially have TONS of notes now. Thanks, guys!

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

I mean the engine size is 20 HS. 20*50 = 1000. (1 HS = 50 tons, so 20 HS * 50 tons per HS = 1000 tons.)

So long as my ship size is divisible by three and over 3000 tons in size, I can easily work out how many engines I need.

Right, gotcha. Honestly should've been obvious. :P
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:41:11 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

I mean the engine size is 20 HS. 20*50 = 1000. (1 HS = 50 tons, so 20 HS * 50 tons per HS = 1000 tons.)

So long as my ship size is divisible by three and over 3000 tons in size, I can easily work out how many engines I need.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:40:43 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?

He is giving you the hint. If you want ships to go at same speed plus round up ships you must set ratios.

So a 1000 tons engine (you can design it) will make it easy for you to calculate ratios as per his examples. As long as you maintain them ratio you will have same speed across all your ships.

I hope it makes sense.

He is also saying that thanks to that he designs also only 1 engine, now this part I may disagree but that may go on another post.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: December 02, 2020, 10:15:03 PM »

Two frame challenges.

1. Why are you opposed to reusing the same engine across classes? Engines are expensive to research; reusing components is usually a positive not a negative. If you are reusing engines, keeping round sizes and speeds is easy as you said.

2. Why should ships of different sizes have the same speed? Smaller ships are, all else equal, worse at any given task than a larger one (stealth aside). If you have multiple sizes of ships, they should probably be doing different things, and thus wanting different speeds.

Point 2 is a "perfect world" point, but still worth thinking about (perfect world, parallel building small ships lets you get tonnage faster, even if every ton is less efficient).

Gonna hit these real quick before main comment:
  • If you can afford the research, a dedicated engine at each mass point is more fuel-efficient for heavier ships than using multiple lighter engines. For example, if you have two engines for a 10,000-ton ship, then for a 20,000 ton ship you could use four engines or design a new engine and use two of them to achieve the same speed. The latter case is more fuel-efficient by a factor of SQRT(2).
  • Generally, while small or specialist ships should have different speeds, your main fleet ships should have similar speeds if they are intended to operate together, as in this case any ship with speed in excess of the fleet's maximum speed is wasting tonnage on engines or fuel that could be used on weapons or defenses. If I have 10,000-ton escorts and 20,000-ton cruisers, I don't need my escorts to move 1,500 km/s faster than the cruisers - I need them to stay with the cruisers and escort them!

Main comment:

It's not actually hard to get a ship with a nice, round tonnage and speed. You just have to realize that you're probably sacrificing also having a nice round set of component sizes/parameter values. If you look at Steve's ships you'll see that some of them have rather odd-looking values for EP for example.

Generally speaking, pick a tonnage and divide it by 50 to get the size in HS. Pick a speed, Multiply HS and speed, divide by a thousand, and you know the total EP you'll need. Usually, in fact, you'll find that the EP you need is not difficult to come up with and the real decision is how to choose between different combinations of size, boost, etc. to get the best engines.

What Steve usually does, I think by his own admission in one of those AAR threads or another, is to keep the boost at 1.0x and pick an engine size at his current tech to get the needed speed with 2-3 engines, then throws a bunch of fuel on to get whatever range he needs, and I think this is what most people do albeit with some variations e.g. always using maximum boost and so on.

Alternatively, if you like optimizing your ships to get the most performance from your tonnage allocation, there is a fairly good approach for a "quick" calculation which exploits the fact that the optimal engine-to-fuel mass ratio is 3:1 in order to get the best combination of speed and range for a particular total engine and fuel mass:

1. The most common example, and the one likely relevant here, is where you have a specific ship size, speed, and fraction of mass you want to dedicate to either propulsion or engines (one implies the other - if you want 30% engine mass, that's the same as saying 40% propulsion mass once you add in the 10% for fuel). We have an expression for ship speed based on total engine power:
Code: [Select]
V = 1000 * EP / HS --> V * HS = 1000 * P0 * Me * Be    (Eq. 1)
    V = speed/velocity
    EP = total engine power
    HS = ship size in HS
    P0 = base EP per HS from tech level
    Me = total engine mass in HS
    Be = engine power boost
If we selected a specific propulsion fraction, Fp (fuel + engines), the engine mass fraction is 75% of that (if you're designing for a specific engine mass fraction instead, then Fp is 4/3 of that value).
Code: [Select]
V * HS = 1000 * P0 * 0.75 * Fp * HS * Be --> V = 750 * P0 * Fp * Be    (Eq. 2)

2. We can then select the necessary EP boost level:
Code: [Select]
Be = V / 750 / P0 / Fp    (Eq. 3)

3. Given the boost level, the ship range can be calculated as:
Code: [Select]
R = V * (3600 * T)    (Eq. 4a)
    R = range
    T = endurance (given in hours in-game)
    3600 = seconds per hour to convert units consistently

T = Vf / EP / eff    (Eq. 4b)
    Vf = fuel volume = Mf * Cf
    Mf = fuel mass in HS = 0.25 * Fp * HS
    Cf = fuel capacity in liters per HS (usually 50,000 L/HS)
    eff = fuel consumption efficiency, in liters per engine power hour (EPh)
The fuel efficiency is the product of three factors (four, if you're messing around with missiles, but that's another subject):
Code: [Select]
eff = e0 * eff_size * eff_boost    (Eq. 5a)
    e0 = fuel consumption efficiency tech
    eff_size = SQRT(10 / mass of a single engine) = SQRT(10 * Ne / 0.75 / Fp / HS)
        Ne = number of engines
    eff_boost = Be^2.5

eff = e0* Be^2.5 * SQRT(7.5 * Ne / Fp / HS)
Back-substitute everything and you have an expression for the range which depends on the design parameters Be, Fp, and Ne (for Ne, I recommend always having at least 2-3 engines on any military ship larger than a FAC for redundancy in case of battle damage):
Code: [Select]
R = 9 * 10^4.5 * Fp^1.5 * Cf / e0 / Be^2.5 * SQRT(0.75 * HS / Ne)

4. Calculate the range you get for the value of Fp and Ne you have chosen as well as the value of Be you obtained from Eq. 3 to get your desired speed. If you're happy with the range you have, go ahead and build the ship/engines (remembering the 3:1 ratio of engine and fuel masses). If not, go back to Eq. 3 and play around with different values of the propulsion fraction to get a lower boost, or reduce the number of engines. If all else fails, you may have to settle for a lower speed until you tech up some more - 10,000 km/s might not be viable for a cruiser propelled by ion drives unless you're really willing to compromise on the range, for example.

Note that with this method, since it's purely analytical you will run into problems with the discrete nature of Aurora - for example, an engine boost of 1.23x is not possible, so you'll have to round to 1.2x or 1.25x or else change your input parameters a little bit. If you're not lucky enough to get round values some tweaking back and forth is probably going to be needed.

My suggestion is that if this all seems like a lot more than you bargained for, stick with 1.0x boost and use engine size as your design parameter until you get a feel for how the numbers work at different tech levels. This will give you good results and also let you get comfortable with building ships with 40% or 50% engine mass (and correspondingly less payload). Ultimately, you're going to need to try your ships in combat to get an intuitive sense of how much speed is enough versus how much engine mass is too much, which will vary depending on your tech, weapons, doctrine, and enemy fleet composition as well.
Posted by: Iestwyn
« on: December 02, 2020, 09:46:06 PM »

Two frame challenges.

1. Why are you opposed to reusing the same engine across classes? Engines are expensive to research; reusing components is usually a positive not a negative. If you are reusing engines, keeping round sizes and speeds is easy as you said.

2. Why should ships of different sizes have the same speed? Smaller ships are, all else equal, worse at any given task than a larger one (stealth aside). If you have multiple sizes of ships, they should probably be doing different things, and thus wanting different speeds.

Point 2 is a "perfect world" point, but still worth thinking about (perfect world, parallel building small ships lets you get tonnage faster, even if every ton is less efficient).

Both points are valid. Here are my answers:

1. It's totally fine to reuse engines across classes, but sometimes you might want to fine-tune things. You may have roles in mind that involve more precise tonnage requirements. Say I have an engine that can make a 5 kiloton ship move 5000 km/s if you strap two on. That means that with three I can have 7.5 kilotons, four makes 10, etc. But what if the roles you have in mind for the larger classes involve an 8 kiloton class? You'd need a new engine to be designed to make that happen.

(To be honest, I don't really have that much against just using the same engine design. I guess this is my "perfect world" point: ideally, you'd be able to pick your tonnage with a lot fewer restrictions.)

2. I'd personally disagree that bigger is always better. In the most extreme example, that would imply that fighters are useless (that doesn't completely apply, since fighters have different mechanics such as being able to use hangars to reload box launchers). Ignoring fighters, the same thing applies for regular ships. There are lots of economical reasons for this---like you said, smaller ships can be built faster, but they can also be refitted quicker and cheaper, allow you to build precisely the navy size you want without overinvesting unnecessarily, etc. There are advantages to both big and small ships, and they could easily end up in the same fleet. If they move at different speeds, then the faster ones have to slow down, essentially meaning that the resources that went into those faster engines could've been used elsewhere. Building them so their top speeds all align is the more effective way to go.

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.

Sorry, I'm kinda tired. What do you mean your engine design is 1000 tons?
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: December 02, 2020, 09:38:38 PM »

All of my military ships have one third of their mass as engines and the engine design is always 1000 tons. So if I have a 6000 ton ship, I have two engines. If the ship is 15000 tons, five engines. My entire fleet goes at the same speed and I only need to research one design.