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Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:32:11 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on February 11, 2021, 03:27:45 PM
As long as we understand that speed almost always comes at a price... be it range or payload. You always have to make some sacrifice to gain something else. In this above case you can gain a 33% increase in weapon load-out for reduced speed, can be important too.

This is why I most of the time don't like comment such as this is too slow or this has too little or too much of this or that. Sure... there probably are designs that are really bad as they have no clear role or are just missing something like too low maintenance or something.

But speed is a relative thing and if 3500km/s is good enough for the environment the ship finds itself in then you can fit more mission tonnage instead and you might also get a cheaper ship both in build cost and MSP usage over time. Gallicite can also in some situations be a resource you don't have enough of to be too casual of its use.

 - Or as I like to say, who needs speed if you can make the enemy come to you? ;D
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:27:45 PM »

As long as we understand that speed almost always comes at a price... be it range or payload. You always have to make some sacrifice to gain something else. In this above case you can gain a 33% increase in weapon load-out for reduced speed, can be important too.

This is why I most of the time don't like comment such as this is too slow or this has too little or too much of this or that. Sure... there probably are designs that are really bad as they have no clear role or are just missing something like too low maintenance or something.

But speed is a relative thing and if 3500km/s is good enough for the environment the ship finds itself in then you can fit more mission tonnage instead and you might also get a cheaper ship both in build cost and MSP usage over time. Gallicite can also in some situations be a resource you don't have enough of to be too casual of its use.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:14:14 PM »

Quote from: xenoscepter on February 11, 2021, 03:06:30 PM
--- 0.465 Billion Kilometers if you want to return to the carrier on the same tank of gas; that's 465 million kilometers, which is a damn good range if we consider this to be a glorified (and re-usable) missile stage. It's not to my taste, but I can see how this would be very a very effective strike craft. I like to sortie my strike craft out to extreme ranges, the better to keep the carrier safe. I think I should mention at this point that while the Striker is intended to fall back for a re-loaded, that both it and the Seeker carry a full tours worth of fuel. In other words, the Seeker isn't meant to ever be re-fueled in the field.

It's definitely to taste - I don't really use ships like this either to be honest although that's more because I tend to avoid missile bombers in general. I just wanted to make the point that getting up to this kind of speed is not difficult even with ion tech, it just means you're building a very particular kind of ship.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:06:30 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on February 11, 2021, 02:55:21 PM
Quickly thrown together in a test game. Ion drives, composite armour (OP used ceramic but I consider composite to be ion tech), max 2.0x EP modifier. Probably not a perfectly optimal design (I will not be taking comments on what I'm sure is a horrible missile design :P ) but it gets the idea across. Note that this also relies on a separate active sensor like most squadron bomber designs.

Code: [Select]
Example class Torpedo Bomber (P)      250 tons       6 Crew       43.7 BP       TCS 5    TH 50    EM 0
10038 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 1.8
Maint Life 7.16 Years     MSP 10    AFR 5%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 25.00 MSP
Magazine 12   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP50.00 (1)    Power 50.0    Fuel Use 1011.93%    Signature 50.00    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 13,000 Litres    Range 0.93 billion km (25 hours at full power)

Size 4.0 Box Launcher (3)     Missile Size: 4.0    Hangar Reload 100 minutes    MF Reload 16 hours
Missile Fire Control FC32-R100 (1)     Range 32.5m km    Resolution 100
Barracuda Anti-Ship Missile (3)    Speed: 27,500 km/s    End: 16.9m     Range: 27.9m km    WH: 4    Size: 4.0000    TH: 100/60/30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
The engine is size 2.0. You can keep basically the same design, drop it to size 1.5 to get 4x box launchers and 7500 km/s which is a more average speed. With a high-speed bomber like this one you're obviously relying more on speed and small size as your defense.

 --- 0.465 Billion Kilometers if you want to return to the carrier on the same tank of gas; that's 465 million kilometers, which is a damn good range if we consider this to be a glorified (and re-usable) missile stage. It's not to my taste, but I can see how this would be very a very effective strike craft. I like to sortie my strike craft out to extreme ranges, the better to keep the carrier safe. I think I should mention at this point that while the Striker is intended to fall back for a re-loaded, that both it and the Seeker carry a full tours worth of fuel. In other words, the Seeker isn't meant to ever be re-fueled in the field.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:55:21 PM »

Quote from: xenoscepter on February 11, 2021, 02:20:59 PM
Quote from: nuclearslurpee on February 11, 2021, 02:16:15 PM
I agree that 6,000 km/s is a decent speed for a spotter, but 8,000 km/s is not what I would call blazing even for ion tech. It is not difficult to reach a speed of 10,000 km/s at ion tech simply by using a large overboost which is a very cheap tech line to research if you plan to use a lot of fighters.

 - I'd like to see those 10,000 km/s designs, I think I could learn something from them. :)

Quickly thrown together in a test game. Ion drives, composite armour (OP used ceramic but I consider composite to be ion tech), max 2.0x EP modifier. Probably not a perfectly optimal design (I will not be taking comments on what I'm sure is a horrible missile design :P ) but it gets the idea across. Note that this also relies on a separate active sensor like most squadron bomber designs.

Example class Torpedo Bomber (P)      250 tons       6 Crew       43.7 BP       TCS 5    TH 50    EM 0
10038 km/s      Armour 1-3       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 1.8
Maint Life 7.16 Years     MSP 10    AFR 5%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 25.00 MSP
Magazine 12   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP50.00 (1)    Power 50.0    Fuel Use 1011.93%    Signature 50.00    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 13,000 Litres    Range 0.93 billion km (25 hours at full power)

Size 4.0 Box Launcher (3)     Missile Size: 4.0    Hangar Reload 100 minutes    MF Reload 16 hours
Missile Fire Control FC32-R100 (1)     Range 32.5m km    Resolution 100
Barracuda Anti-Ship Missile (3)    Speed: 27,500 km/s    End: 16.9m     Range: 27.9m km    WH: 4    Size: 4.0000    TH: 100/60/30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction


The engine is size 2.0. You can keep basically the same design, drop it to size 1.5 to get 4x box launchers and 7500 km/s which is a more average speed. With a high-speed bomber like this one you're obviously relying more on speed and small size as your defense.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:21:37 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on February 11, 2021, 02:16:15 PM
Quote from: xenoscepter on February 11, 2021, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.

6020 km/s at Ion Tech... "kinda slow" Lol whut? 8,000 km/s is BLAZING quick for Ion Tech fighters. The fighters have 50% reduced thermal emissions as well. Their range is half of the Striker's M-FCS range, if anything I'd want more range not less.

I agree that 6,000 km/s is a decent speed for a spotter, but 8,000 km/s is not what I would call blazing even for ion tech. It is not difficult to reach a speed of 10,000 km/s at ion tech simply by using a large overboost which is a very cheap tech line to research if you plan to use a lot of fighters.

Yes... it is reasonable to assume you have at the least an x2 if not x2.5 engine power-boost at about Ion technology engines... obviously depends on priorities though. It also depend on how much speed you need and how much you want to spend on space and cost for engines as well... everything have a cost.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:20:59 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on February 11, 2021, 02:14:52 PM
Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.
I think he was talking about the range as in how far the Seekers can travel. You might use them for other purposes than actively scanning a potential target and then additional range can be usefull though. Allthough I tend to use different design for that and much smaller scout crafts in general.

 - Ah, well yes they'd make poor scouts that much is for sure, but they're really meant to be used for painting targets only. If I want scouts I'll bring scouts; something like this:
Code: [Select]
Sprinter Class Fast Scout Craft      125 tons       4 Crew       53.4 BP       TCS 2    TH 10    EM 0
16118 km/s      Armour 1-2       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 3/3/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 24%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 2    5YR 31    Max Repair 40 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Kittleson Designs T50/40M Boosted Magneto-plasma Drive, Advanced Stealth Type (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 1562.50%    Signature 9.60    Explosion 25%
Fuel Capacity 31,000 Litres    Range 2.88 billion km (49 hours at full power)

T15/3-3TH Passive Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     Sensitivity 3.3     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14.4m km
T15/3-3EM Passive Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     Sensitivity 3.3     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14.4m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
 - Or this:
Code: [Select]
Marathon Class Jump Scout      500 tons       16 Crew       129.5 BP       TCS 10    TH 10    EM 0
4007 km/s    JR 1-1000      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 4      Sensors 22/22/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 9.31 Years     MSP 72    AFR 10%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 22    Max Repair 40 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 days    Morale Check Required   

Kittleson Designs J500/1-1000M Jump Drive, Sub-Compact     Max Ship Size 500 tons    Distance 1000k km     Squadron Size 1

Kittleson Designs T100/40M Boosted Magneto-plasma Drive, Advanced Stealth Type (1)    Power 40    Fuel Use 195.31%    Signature 9.60    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 41,000 Litres    Range 7.6 billion km (21 days at full power)

T40/10-11R1 Active Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     GPS 8     Range 5.3m km    MCR 476.3k km    Resolution 1
T100/22EM Passive Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  37.1m km
T100/22TH Passive Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  37.1m km

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
 - They're of a different tech level entirely, but these are the kinds of Fighter scale scouts I typically field.

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on February 11, 2021, 02:16:15 PM
I agree that 6,000 km/s is a decent speed for a spotter, but 8,000 km/s is not what I would call blazing even for ion tech. It is not difficult to reach a speed of 10,000 km/s at ion tech simply by using a large overboost which is a very cheap tech line to research if you plan to use a lot of fighters.

 - I'd like to see those 10,000 km/s designs, I think I could learn something from them. :)
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:16:15 PM »

Quote from: xenoscepter on February 11, 2021, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.

6020 km/s at Ion Tech... "kinda slow" Lol whut? 8,000 km/s is BLAZING quick for Ion Tech fighters. The fighters have 50% reduced thermal emissions as well. Their range is half of the Striker's M-FCS range, if anything I'd want more range not less.

I agree that 6,000 km/s is a decent speed for a spotter, but 8,000 km/s is not what I would call blazing even for ion tech. It is not difficult to reach a speed of 10,000 km/s at ion tech simply by using a large overboost which is a very cheap tech line to research if you plan to use a lot of fighters.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:14:52 PM »

Quote from: xenoscepter on February 11, 2021, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.

6020 km/s at Ion Tech... "kinda slow" Lol whut? 8,000 km/s is BLAZING quick for Ion Tech fighters. The fighters have 50% reduced thermal emissions as well. Their range is half of the Striker's M-FCS range, if anything I'd want more range not less.

I think he was talking about the range as in how far the Seekers can travel. You might use them for other purposes than actively scanning a potential target and then additional range can be usefull though. Allthough I tend to use different design for that and much smaller scout crafts in general.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:13:48 PM »

 - I honestly think this concept would work better at Magento-Plasma or Internal Fusion tech, since I struggled to get a missile with both good range, good punch AND good accuracy. The M-FCS were set up with the idea that I'd change out used launchers for unused ones ten at a time. Micro-Hell for sure, but eh... tonnage is tonnage. The lasers were an afterthought and the OG was 15,000 tons with roughly half the throw weight, one less fighter and no PD / Auxiliary guns.

Code: [Select]
Striker class Missile Destroyer (P)      15,000 tons       273 Crew       1,648.5 BP       TCS 300    TH 1,193    EM 0
3975 km/s      Armour 5-54       Shields 0-0       HTK 96      Sensors 75/75/0/0      DCR 18      PPV 54
Maint Life 4.95 Years     MSP 1,716    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 116    5YR 1,747    Max Repair 268.3125 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     Magazine 360    Cryogenic Berths 200   
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Flight Crew Berths 40    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP596.25 (2)    Power 1192.5    Fuel Use 20.03%    Signature 596.25    Explosion 9%
Fuel Capacity 1,600,000 Litres    Range 95.9 billion km (279 days at full power)

Size 10 Box Launcher (36)     Missile Size: 10    Hangar Reload 158 minutes    MF Reload 26 hours
Missile Fire Control FC34-R60 (3)     Range 34.2m km    Resolution 60
ASM, Class 10 (36)    Speed: 25,260 km/s    End: 21.4m     Range: 32.5m km    WH: 9    Size: 10    TH: 168/101/50

EM Sensor EM15-75 (1)     Sensitivity 75     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Thermal Sensor TH15-75 (1)     Sensitivity 75     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km

Strike Group
2x Seeker Fire Direction Craft   Speed: 6020 km/s    Size: 4.98

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 - This was the one without the PD / Aux guns, instead I had offloaded them to a five kiloton corvette.

Code: [Select]
Defender class Corvette (P)      5,000 tons       103 Crew       541.8 BP       TCS 100    TH 400    EM 0
4000 km/s      Armour 5-26       Shields 0-0       HTK 37      Sensors 1/1/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 14.98
Maint Life 4.44 Years     MSP 1,127    AFR 200%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 92    5YR 1,387    Max Repair 80 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP200.00 (2)    Power 400    Fuel Use 24.29%    Signature 200    Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 652,000 Litres    Range 96.6 billion km (279 days at full power)

12cm Laser, L1 Armored Single Turret (1+5) (2x1)    Range 40,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R80-TS12000 (1)     Max Range: 80,000 km   TS: 12,000 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R8-PB60 (1)     Total Power Output 8    Exp 30%

Active Search Sensor AS3-R1 (1)     GPS 6     Range 3.1m km    MCR 278.1k km    Resolution 1
EM Sensor EM0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km
Thermal Sensor TH0.2-1.0 (1)     Sensitivity 1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  7.9m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 11, 2021, 02:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.

6020 km/s at Ion Tech... "kinda slow" Lol whut? 8,000 km/s is BLAZING quick for Ion Tech fighters. The fighters have 50% reduced thermal emissions as well. Their range is half of the Striker's M-FCS range, if anything I'd want more range not less.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: February 11, 2021, 01:50:10 PM »

Quote from: Barkhorn on February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM
The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.

Speed is a relative thing... I have used many types and I find that really small scouts work super well and you can stock manny of them in many versions, at least for active sensors they work really well.

Here are three example ones...

Code: [Select]
Raven Type-1 class Fast Scout Craft      22 tons       1 Crew       9.5 BP       TCS 0    TH 3    EM 0
5831 km/s      Armour 1-0       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 4%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Lieutenant    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP2.50 (1)    Power 2.5    Fuel Use 3394.11%    Signature 2.5    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 1,000 Litres    Range 0.25 billion km (11 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS3-R1 (1)     GPS 4     Range 3.3m km    MCR 301.3k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
Code: [Select]
Raven Type-120 class Fast Scout Craft      22 tons       1 Crew       9.5 BP       TCS 0    TH 3    EM 0
5831 km/s      Armour 1-0       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 4%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Lieutenant    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP2.50 (1)    Power 2.5    Fuel Use 3394.11%    Signature 2.5    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 1,000 Litres    Range 0.25 billion km (11 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS16-R120 (1)     GPS 384     Range 16.5m km    Resolution 120

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
Code: [Select]
Raven Type-5 class Fast Scout Craft      22 tons       1 Crew       9.5 BP       TCS 0    TH 3    EM 0
5831 km/s      Armour 1-0       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 4%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Lieutenant    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  EP2.50 (1)    Power 2.5    Fuel Use 3394.11%    Signature 2.5    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 1,000 Litres    Range 0.25 billion km (11 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS5-R5 (1)     GPS 16     Range 5.7m km    Resolution 5

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
These are slightly smaller than a size 9 missile...  ;)


They are only short range scouts, you can add more fuel for a few more tonnage to increase the range. They also can dock with a tanker for extended range.
Posted by: Barkhorn
« on: February 11, 2021, 01:43:23 PM »

The Seekers have much more range than they need.  Consider that they could go from the Sun to Pluto and back, and still have ~3 billion km left.  Meanwhile they're also kinda slow.

Both of these ships could benefit greatly from reduced thermal emission engines.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: February 11, 2021, 01:38:21 PM »

Quote from: misanthropope on February 11, 2021, 01:31:03 PM
soon as you add multi-srage missiles into the mix (which seem to be necessary given the missile nerf), it feels like the whole package is more-or-less a direct competitor with the basic carrier strikegroup.  after you've settled on a set of specifications, it would seem natural to investigate the cost and overall utility of a carrier whose strikegroup carries the same firepower with the same strike range.

The main benefit with fighters is also dynamic range (using tankers) and the ability to never reveal where the carrier is as they can attack from a completely different vector. Missiles might be a bit cheaper in general though but will always in some for reveal the carriers rough position. There also can be a risk for missiles to be intercepted before separation as well, fighters can disengage if things go wrong in some cases.
Posted by: misanthropope
« on: February 11, 2021, 01:31:03 PM »

soon as you add multi-srage missiles into the mix (which seem to be necessary given the missile nerf), it feels like the whole package is more-or-less a direct competitor with the basic carrier strikegroup.  after you've settled on a set of specifications, it would seem natural to investigate the cost and overall utility of a carrier whose strikegroup carries the same firepower with the same strike range.