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Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 21, 2021, 07:45:52 PM »

Quote from: Density on May 21, 2021, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Agraelgrimm link=topic=12573. msg151895#msg151895 date=1621636687
Now that is mighty useful.  It means i can create a Gun Crewmen infnatry type unit, put them with light personal weapons, put to avoid battle then throw in the logistics and etc and i dont even have to bother with armor, in the meanwhile, they will soak up the damage that the artillery units are taking, making the unit fight longer.  All in the while i still retain the RP aspect.  Just awsome.

You might want to weigh your options on flagging them as avoid battle.  Aside from the research cost for another special use unit (which would be minimal in this case), their role is to be targetted when support and rear position formations can be attacked.  Avoid battle is pretty much the opposite of that.

Personally, I just use the same armorless, light pw infantry I use for garrisons to suppress unrest for this role.

I will keep that in mind.
I am using light pw for gun crewman and officers (RP option and OCD requirement), armored units are based on tier... Motorized Infantry goes with some armour and Marines, drop troopers or mech Infantry goes with the best gear of them all, just because they are on the offensive and dont get entrenchment options.
Posted by: Density
« on: May 21, 2021, 07:27:42 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm link=topic=12573. msg151895#msg151895 date=1621636687
Now that is mighty useful.  It means i can create a Gun Crewmen infnatry type unit, put them with light personal weapons, put to avoid battle then throw in the logistics and etc and i dont even have to bother with armor, in the meanwhile, they will soak up the damage that the artillery units are taking, making the unit fight longer.  All in the while i still retain the RP aspect.  Just awsome.

You might want to weigh your options on flagging them as avoid battle.  Aside from the research cost for another special use unit (which would be minimal in this case), their role is to be targetted when support and rear position formations can be attacked.  Avoid battle is pretty much the opposite of that.

Personally, I just use the same armorless, light pw infantry I use for garrisons to suppress unrest for this role.
Posted by: Density
« on: May 21, 2021, 07:14:48 PM »

Quote from: Droll link=topic=12573. msg151879#msg151879 date=1621627928
Quote from: Density link=topic=12573. msg151828#msg151828 date=1621555025
AFAIK, bombardment in the rear still has to be assigned to support another formation (or be attacked) in order to engage. 

Just so there is no misunderstanding.  Artillery elements that aren't actively supporting a formation can still fire when not being attacked themselves.  Such artillery formations will perform counter-battery fire against enemy artillery formations, so they'll still contribute to the fight this way.

I'll take your word for it, as I'm mostly working from memory and Steve's original ground rules post.
Out of curiosity, will they do counter-battery fire against any enemy artillery, against enemy artillery that fired that ground round, or just against those that fire at formations in the same hierarchy?
Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 21, 2021, 05:38:07 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on May 21, 2021, 03:36:18 PM
Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 21, 2021, 03:19:38 PM
You guys are great. I really appreciate the care you all took to help me out. And you are right. I will just RP this out and use a art company to support as said before. Will put some infantry and etc for RP reasons and thats it. (Like Crewmen instead of artillery and put the crewmen to avoid fighting or not, in order to simulate the attrition of counter fire barrages.
Thanks again.

No problem!

Just as a mechanical note: while I see people do what you do here for RP reasons (placing INF elements in artillery formations), do be aware that INF with direct fire weapons will not be able to fire if the formation is in the support or rear echelon, even if that formation is attacked. Of course infantry with light weapons can still serve as damage sponges which can help your formations have more staying power (especially per unit cost), they just won't be able to shoot at anyone while they absorb bullets. The artillery in that formation of course will have no such difficulties.

Now that is mighty useful. It means i can create a Gun Crewmen infnatry type unit, put them with light personal weapons, put to avoid battle then throw in the logistics and etc and i dont even have to bother with armor, in the meanwhile, they will soak up the damage that the artillery units are taking, making the unit fight longer. All in the while i still retain the RP aspect. Just awsome.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: May 21, 2021, 03:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 21, 2021, 03:19:38 PM
You guys are great. I really appreciate the care you all took to help me out. And you are right. I will just RP this out and use a art company to support as said before. Will put some infantry and etc for RP reasons and thats it. (Like Crewmen instead of artillery and put the crewmen to avoid fighting or not, in order to simulate the attrition of counter fire barrages.
Thanks again.

No problem!

Just as a mechanical note: while I see people do what you do here for RP reasons (placing INF elements in artillery formations), do be aware that INF with direct fire weapons will not be able to fire if the formation is in the support or rear echelon, even if that formation is attacked. Of course infantry with light weapons can still serve as damage sponges which can help your formations have more staying power (especially per unit cost), they just won't be able to shoot at anyone while they absorb bullets. The artillery in that formation of course will have no such difficulties.
Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 21, 2021, 03:19:38 PM »

You guys are great. I really appreciate the care you all took to help me out. And you are right. I will just RP this out and use a art company to support as said before. Will put some infantry and etc for RP reasons and thats it. (Like Crewmen instead of artillery and put the crewmen to avoid fighting or not, in order to simulate the attrition of counter fire barrages.
Thanks again.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: May 21, 2021, 03:15:31 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 21, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
Its a mess.

It really doesn't have to be. If you have, say, 5,000-ton formations as your basic type (companies or what have you), and you decide to have your basic infantry battalion consist of 3x Infantry companies, 1x Artillery company, and the HQ company with whatever else you throw in there, you can order the artillery company to support one of the infantry companies and it will work just fine.

If you on the other hand decided to, say, split the artillery company into three batteries of 1,600 tons each so that each one could support one infantry company, you could feel free to do this, but there is functionally no difference in terms of the effect on the battlefield in the actual ground combat. There is not even any significant effect from having formations "to protect the Artillery units" - Aurora simply does not simulate the tactical event of an artillery company being outflanked and overrun, if the artillery are shot at they simply take some damage in the same manner as every other formation, but by being in the support or rear echelons they are fired at much less frequently.

So if you just use the 5,000 ton artillery company and in-game assign it to support one infantry company, the mechanical effect will come out to be basically the same. Nothing stops you from role-playing this as an artillery company which is supporting all three infantry companies in a tactical sense, in fact with Aurora most players find that some aspect of the game mechanics or another does not fit their headcanon and choose to ignore it when role-playing. In general this is probably the more enjoyable approach to Aurora, to work with rather than against the game mechanics and simply imagine that everything works the way you would like it to - in a game where major planetary invasions usually require several million tons of ground troops it is not too difficult to pretend that the artillery in a single company are coordinating with each infantry company on the tactical level even if mechanically they aren't quite doing this - this detail turns out to be very far removed from the actual ground combat effects that you see on the whole scale of the fighting, so there is nearly infinite room for imagination.

In general with Aurora worrying about how to get the exact tactical or operational behavior you want is only going to cause frustration. The magic of Aurora is that the game is played on the strategic layer, which gives you as a player endless freedom to imagine and roleplay how the tactical events took place.
Posted by: Droll
« on: May 21, 2021, 03:12:08 PM »

Quote from: Density on May 20, 2021, 06:57:05 PM
I think you've misread what Andrew was saying.  Heavy can be used in the rear echelon instead of the support position.  AFAIK, bombardment in the rear still has to be assigned to support another formation (or be attacked) in order to engage.

Just so there is no misunderstanding. Artillery elements that aren't actively supporting a formation can still fire when not being attacked themselves. Such artillery formations will perform counter-battery fire against enemy artillery formations, so they'll still contribute to the fight this way.
Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 21, 2021, 02:55:36 PM »

Well, its not going to go my way of box thinking, so the best solution to me is to put those artillery units inside FF Units and thats it. Light and medium bombardment. And use Heavy to put it in the rear, so no one gets AF support. Especially since if i go down this road, i will need one company to support for each unit i get, since i need a commander, so it will all be huge. And i will need to protect the Artillery units, wich means more infantry to support them, and so on so forth. Its a mess.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: May 21, 2021, 12:50:51 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 20, 2021, 07:05:48 PM
Lets say i have a battallion with 4 companies in or a Brigade with such battalions, is there anyway to support the *whole* Brigade or Battalion?
You're still stuck in Tactical/Operational mindset. Which is understandable since that's where we usually need to be when playing strategy games.

Instead, you need to adopt the Aurora mindset. Ground combat operates in 4 zones and not all of them can interact with each other. There are no hexes, no chokepoints, no envelopment - and terrain only affects hit chance. Also, forget detailed minutiae of units - there are no foot soldiers, tracked tanks, wheeled vehicles, or walking steam-powered spider mechs. It's all abstracted away.

If you want to min/max, or optimize your efficiency, you'll build 1 Artillery formation (AF) for every 1 Frontline formation (FF). Then your FF's, whether they are set to Frontline Attack or Frontline Defence, will get supporting fire for each round of combat. For counter-battery fire, you can put Long-Range/Heavy/Super-Heavy Bombardment units in your own Rear zone and they will fire at enemy artillery regardless of which zone they are in. They can also be set to support your FF's. Medium bombardment will only do counter-battery to enemy Support zone and Light bombardment will only do counter-battery to enemy Frontline zones. This is also the least micro-intensive method of getting AF support since you only have to set them once per planetary campaign.

!!! HOWEVER !!!

Testing has shown that the above is not at all necessary to win battles. You can build your OOB in as much detail as you want and it will do well enough. Not every FF needs an AF to win. Technological and numerical superiority are far more important than your formational structure. Steve intentionally made it this way so that the system can handle anything from 20th century Earth combat to Warhammer 40k as well as conflicts ranging from handful of space marines shooting it out on a tiny asteroid to hundreds of millions of units waging war across an entire planet.

Which again means that there is a very high level of abstraction in place in the system.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: May 20, 2021, 10:45:50 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 20, 2021, 07:16:13 PM
Quote from: nuclearslurpee on May 20, 2021, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 20, 2021, 07:05:48 PM
Lets say i have a battallion with 4 companies in or a Brigade with such battalions, is there anyway to support the *whole* Brigade or Battalion?

No. A single formation with bombardment elements can only support one other frontline formation. The only way to have every frontline formation supported is to maintain a 1:1 ratio of frontline and support formations, which is usually not the best of ideas.

The flip side is: the way Aurora ground combat actually works, the actual effect of supporting fire is essentially the same regardless of which battalion(s) are being supported, due to the random targeting in each combat round.

That does make it tricky to use bunkers to provide fire support. However, i could use bunkers to give support to other bunkers...
I hope Steve decides to make a few changes into this.

How so? Static is just a unit type, there's no special rules for it in the combat zone. You can roleplay that a Static element is a bunker, but other people will simply use them to indicate heavy towed artillery for instance.
Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 20, 2021, 07:16:13 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on May 20, 2021, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 20, 2021, 07:05:48 PM
Lets say i have a battallion with 4 companies in or a Brigade with such battalions, is there anyway to support the *whole* Brigade or Battalion?

No. A single formation with bombardment elements can only support one other frontline formation. The only way to have every frontline formation supported is to maintain a 1:1 ratio of frontline and support formations, which is usually not the best of ideas.

The flip side is: the way Aurora ground combat actually works, the actual effect of supporting fire is essentially the same regardless of which battalion(s) are being supported, due to the random targeting in each combat round.

That does make it tricky to use bunkers to provide fire support. However, i could use bunkers to give support to other bunkers...
I hope Steve decides to make a few changes into this.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: May 20, 2021, 07:13:42 PM »

Quote from: Agraelgrimm on May 20, 2021, 07:05:48 PM
Lets say i have a battallion with 4 companies in or a Brigade with such battalions, is there anyway to support the *whole* Brigade or Battalion?

No. A single formation with bombardment elements can only support one other frontline formation. The only way to have every frontline formation supported is to maintain a 1:1 ratio of frontline and support formations, which is usually not the best of ideas.

The flip side is: the way Aurora ground combat actually works, the actual effect of supporting fire is essentially the same regardless of which battalion(s) are being supported, due to the random targeting in each combat round.
Posted by: Agraelgrimm
« on: May 20, 2021, 07:05:48 PM »

Lets say i have a battallion with 4 companies in or a Brigade with such battalions, is there anyway to support the *whole* Brigade or Battalion?
Posted by: Density
« on: May 20, 2021, 06:57:05 PM »

Quote from: Andrew link=topic=12573. msg151817#msg151817 date=1621550041
Heavy bombardment units can I believe be in Rear Echelon as can long range bombardment everything else has to be in support.

Quote from: Agraelgrimm link=topic=12573. msg151825#msg151825 date=1621551044
or i make a support unit for each combat unit i get or have a lot of heavy bombardment units in the rear.  Do i have any other options to get something more realistic?

I think you've misread what Andrew was saying.  Heavy can be used in the rear echelon instead of the support position.  AFAIK, bombardment in the rear still has to be assigned to support another formation (or be attacked) in order to engage.

But yeah, in ground combat as it is now, if you want artillery you either add light bombardment to a front line formation, or you make an artillery formation for each front line formation you want to be supported.  While more complex to set up, the second option puts limits on how and when your enemy can fire at your artillery.