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Posted by: ExChairman
« on: October 27, 2010, 06:08:14 AM »

A little more detail and we can probably give you some advice to improve your hit ratio's.  Speed of target, targets ecm rating, missile construction breakdown, etc. 

Well the speed of the enemy ships was 5654 km/s, seems to have had ECM (3), but that didn't show up on event list.... My missiles had 9500 in speed, and very low hit probability... but the new ones are soon being tested at the invaders :P :-X
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: October 23, 2010, 08:52:28 AM »

@James   Normally I'd agree.  But with ExChairman's desire for something that is a close approximation of the Starfire CAM(very short range, heavy hitter for mass, very low chance of intercept) his second design is a step in the right direction.

@ExChairman  Take a look at your events log.  What are the target speed and ECM modifiers?  Factor that into your new design and see how your tohit numbers change. 
Posted by: James Patten
« on: October 22, 2010, 04:39:23 PM »

You should have at least 1 or 2 minutes of endurance.  This gives you a little bit of time to target, launch, and hit the target.
Posted by: ExChairman
« on: October 22, 2010, 01:37:21 PM »

Well here is my old missile

Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 5   Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 9900 km/s    Endurance: 0 minutes   Range: 0.4m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.665
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 159%   3k km/s 50%   5k km/s 31.8%   10k km/s 15.9% This should bee alot lower, updated to current tech...
Materials Required:    2x Tritanium   0.015x Gallicite   Fuel x2.5

And my New one, better tech. helps... :)

Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 6    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 36
Speed: 19900 km/s    Endurance: 0 minutes   Range: 0.4m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.4817
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 716.4%   3k km/s 216%   5k km/s 143.3%   10k km/s 71.6%
Materials Required:    1.5x Tritanium   0.7217x Gallicite   Fuel x2.5
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: October 22, 2010, 06:44:51 AM »

If you have Excel, this will probably help:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,2972.msg29099.html#msg29099

If not, someone really needs to find the original post somewhere deep in this forum, or locate the original creator. There should be an open office version.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: October 22, 2010, 06:38:27 AM »

Well I tested a "rocketpod" yeasterday, 60 fighters with 20 size 1 pods... Lost 2 fighters getting close... Fired away everything, 14 missiles hit :o out of1160, for a total of 70 points of damage to a enemy destroyer.... :(
Hmm, I dont think my fighterpilots could hit the barn from the inside... ;D

Well, back to the drawing board, the next missile will have some agility... ;)

A little more detail and we can probably give you some advice to improve your hit ratio's.  Speed of target, targets ecm rating, missile construction breakdown, etc. 
Posted by: ExChairman
« on: October 22, 2010, 05:00:43 AM »

Well I tested a "rocketpod" yeasterday, 60 fighters with 20 size 1 pods... Lost 2 fighters getting close... Fired away everything, 14 missiles hit :o out of1160, for a total of 70 points of damage to a enemy destroyer.... :(
Hmm, I dont think my fighterpilots could hit the barn from the inside... ;D

Well, back to the drawing board, the next missile will have some agility... ;)
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: October 11, 2010, 02:42:01 PM »

Brian is correct.  That is exactly the sequence of play exploit I'm talking about.  It was driving me to distraction in one game when I was having it happen to me.  Dug out the detailed sequence of play to see what was actually happening.  Point defense final fire, this includes CIWS fire, does occur during movement.  The exploit is that detection occurs after movement and before missile launch.  This allows a 1 turn window (5 seconds) where missiles move after launch, and potentially hit thier target, without ever being detected. 

Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: October 11, 2010, 02:21:26 PM »

Normally, CiWS should still be able to intercept those. They should fire in the missile movement phase.
The problem comes up because of the standard order in which activities are performed in.  The sensor check to see the missiles comes after the missiles has already hit it's target.  Therefore the ciws system never has a chance to see the incomming missile, and can not fire on it.  Steve was talking about adding another detection cycle in to prevent this but I don't know if he has actually done it.  In one respect I would rather not have the extra detection cycle as it will tend to slow things down a little bit, and it gives missiles a close range where they are more potent than normal.  It might be a nice idea however for ciws systems to get that second check as it would give another different reason to mount them on more ships than currently have them.

Brian
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: October 11, 2010, 01:14:18 PM »

Normally, CiWS should still be able to intercept those. They should fire in the missile movement phase.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: October 11, 2010, 11:12:25 AM »

Well, sort of. Granted, it is a short-ranged missile weapon, but it's an unsatisfying solution, because it makes for an extremely bad weapon.

Your opinion that this makes a bad weapon differs from mine.  Using this type of design protocol creates a missile that can't be intercepted.  It does require that you get close, usually a little outside beam range close.  It has been an effective means of dealing with races that extremely heavy anti-missile defenses for games were I haven't developed beams outside of point defense. 

Your mileage may very.
Posted by: Vanigo
« on: October 11, 2010, 08:53:29 AM »

While this is not exactly what the original poster asked for, it is in my opinion close the the spirit of the request.

Well, sort of. Granted, it is a short-ranged missile weapon, but it's an unsatisfying solution, because it makes for an extremely bad weapon.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: October 11, 2010, 08:26:54 AM »

Interesting, even those that have harped about getting back on topic haven’t.  The original poster made an oblique request for ballistic rockets with strong warheads.  Rockets being unguided and missiles being guided, yes this is correct military terminology.  This quickly devolved into at least 2 separate, but related, discussions viable fighter beam weapons and beam weapons that require ammunition.

I think that it’s been adequately demonstrated that the current game does have viable beam weapons for fighters.  As long as so care is taken when designing the beam and the supporting power plant.  There is room here for expanding some hanger bay functionality to allow for the recharge of beam capacitors thus allowing the removal of power plants from fighters at the player’s discretion.  Something along the lines used in SFB for recharge of fighters armed with heavy weapons (fusion beams, photon torpedoes, disrupters, etc)

On the other hand, it does not look like a game benefit has been found, outside of role-playing, for ammunition being required for any beam weapon.  At least not in light of the existing beam capabilities. (ie ballistic rockets add very little to the game for the effort to implement)

On the gripping hand, no one described how the close assault missile can be designed an implemented within the current game structure, it’s actually quite easy.  Use the same principals that have been described in the past for point defense counter missiles, missile size points (MSP) can be used to 3 decimal places.  The player does need to research higher levels of missile warhead strength as well as better engine technology.  Select .001 for fuel capacity, this is the absolute minimum I’ve been able to make function.  Adjust warhead strength to desired yield and then adjust engine power to missile size class desired. Remember that the game will not allow a sub-size 1 missile.  The resulting missile with only effectively have a 5 second fight time.  This also means that counter missiles or point defense because of the sequence of play cannot intercept it.  While this is not exactly what the original poster asked for, it is in my opinion close the the spirit of the request.
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: October 11, 2010, 04:08:07 AM »

Thank you for that evaluation.
In that sense, new Ammo weapons are probably not needed for fighters.
They would still be nice, in the general sense.
As for why full sized ships would want to have smaller weapons?

Because then you can put in MOAR of them.
Ammobased Beamweapons would essentially be somewhat of a Box Launcher equivalent of Missiles, despite not actually being one shot.
Like a Fighter that fires a triple Microwave and then buggers off.
If your low on force, you can hope for a devastating strike to win the battle, if you have superior numbers, you can the job done quicker, in between, it's worse, but thats the trade off.

I agree Particle Beams are more for FACs.
Posted by: Vanigo
« on: October 10, 2010, 08:40:39 PM »

Simple:
There are no weapons only for fighters, as the only thing that a fighter is defined by is it's engine and size. Adding weapons that are only allowed for a specific weight class would contradict the current design of the game and require extra dependencies.
It would also be completely illogical.
What? No, it's not that you couldn't put dumbfire missiles on a full-sized ship. It's just that there probably isn't much reason to, since larger ships don't need to keep their size down as badly.
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Further good weapons for fighters seem to be small Railguns and reduced sized Lasers, and obviously Missiles which are best if your numbers are limited or the enemy has good close range weaponry, or if RP dictates that sacrifice even of smaller ships is unacceptable.
There has never been a lack of beam weapons for fighters. Even a Particle Beam, to stay outside enemy beam range, or with good enough engine theoretically a carronade, for a huge punch on point black range, would work.
But... even the smallest particle beam takes 5 HS, and if you want to actually take advantage of its constant damage, you'll need a decently sized fire control. I guess you could squeeze it into a 500 ton fighter, but how's a 500 ton fighter supposed to stay outside enemy beam range?
As for plasma carronades, the only advantage they have is that they're easier to research; they're otherwise strictly inferior to even a visible light laser of the same caliber - they've got the same range as infrared lasers, but they actually cost more! And a fighter isn't going to be mounting anything bigger than 15cm, anyway, so the research isn't much of a problem. (And, while they do more damage per shot than other beam weapons at the same tech level, they fire commensurately slower. I'm really not sure why anyone would use them for anything.)

Quote
But how does this actually tough the topic?
If a beam weapon on a fighter is good, why not allow for a better one that requires additional logistics?
As I stated before, Plasma Torpedoes weren't needed, but Steve used them to add flavor to the game.
So, does your recent discussion say something for or against Ammo-based beam weapons?
Because, currently, it is a tactical discussion; Sorry if I just don't see the point, but I just don't see the point.
The point is, if the existing options for beam weapons on fighters are all lousy, adding new ones is more important. If the existing options are perfectly workable, it would still be nice, but much lower priority.